Book of Enoch?

Raphael Jauregui

Episcopalian, liberal Anglican, Mdiv
May 3, 2017
574
376
Mesa
✟28,598.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
As we all know, the book of Enoch was excluded from both Catholic and Protestant bibles: Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Why is that the case though? Enoch was listed as an Old Testament Patriarch, and many of the names of God's angels are listed in it.

Any ideas?
Personally, I love the Apocrypha or Extracanonical books. I firmly believe that they are good for study and teaching even if not considered doctrinally canon. Interestingly about the Book of Enoch, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church does consider it a part of their OT canon!
 
Upvote 0

TheNorwegian

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2015
595
523
Norway
✟89,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ii feel i am very qualified for deciding scriptures for myself. i believe every word Jesus said. "ask seek knock". when Jesus taught this he was not teaching IMO to ask a council of men to lead you.
am i qualified to pick scriptures for others, no. i believe only the spirit can do that, not a group.

This makes you the ultimate authority then: Whatever you feel is Scripture, is Scripture - and whatever you do feel is not Scripture, is not Scripture. If I have another understanding of what is "the real Scripture" then that is Scripture for me. In this way we can have as many versions of "Scripture" as there are Christians (or even more if non-Christans can define their own Scripture). Then Scripture as the Word of God has no longer any real meaning, as it is subject to anyone's opinion. If you do not like something, then you define it as "not the Word of God" and if you like something then you define it as "the Word of God"
 
Upvote 0

jaybird88

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2015
400
115
✟42,893.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This makes you the ultimate authority then: Whatever you feel is Scripture, is Scripture - and whatever you do feel is not Scripture, is not Scripture. If I have another understanding of what is "the real Scripture" then that is Scripture for me. In this way we can have as many versions of "Scripture" as there are Christians (or even more if non-Christans can define their own Scripture). Then Scripture as the Word of God has no longer any real meaning, as it is subject to anyone's opinion. If you do not like something, then you define it as "not the Word of God" and if you like something then you define it as "the Word of God"
did you not read what i said? i would never in a million years tell people what is scripture, i dont have that right.
one should rely on the spirit to lead them, not a group. thats what i been saying all this time.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: yeshuasavedme
Upvote 0

TheNorwegian

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2015
595
523
Norway
✟89,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
did you not read what i said? i would never in a million years tell people what is scripture, i dont have that right. one should rely on the spirit to lead them, not a group. thats what i been saying all this time.

Yes, I read what you wrote. Maybe you did not understand my argument? I get that you will never tell anybody what is scripture. So, everyone is free to decide for themselves what is/is not "scripture". Then each person becomes the ultimate judge as to what is/is not "the word of God". I understand that this is your point view - but I do not share that understanding.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,819
✟323,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
did you not read what i said? i would never in a million years tell people what is scripture, i dont have that right.
one should rely on the spirit to lead them, not a group. thats what i been saying all this time.
God has already given us what is scripture.

God has warned us that there are false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing that will come forth. We need to stand on what God has given us.

And we are warned not to add to it, nor take away from it.

This is a slippery slope people to false teaching.
 
Upvote 0

jaybird88

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2015
400
115
✟42,893.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God has already given us what is scripture.
Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees and other books are quoted and refereed to by their name.
2 Samuel 1 17
17And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and Jonathan his son, 18and he said ita should be taught to the people of Judah; behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar.b He said:

why would the Almighty allow the inspired word to direct us to uninspired books??

God has warned us that there are false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing that will come forth. We need to stand on what God has given us.
Jesus taught we would know these false teachers by their fruits. two groups are directly responsible for the death of Jesus, rome and the pharisees. i can not think of worse fruits than the ones that killed Jesus. they are alsothe ones that picked out our canon of scripture.

And we are warned not to add to it, nor take away from it.

This is a slippery slope people to false teaching.

these are meant to be understood IMO as not adding to that specific book it is mentioned in. when book of numbers says dont add to my word its talking about the book of numbers. if its really meant to mean dont add any other books then you are going to have to dismiss every book after the book of numbers.

if its a path to false teaching then why in the world would Jesus and the 12 use teachings that can be found no where else but in these books? are they trying to lead us to false teachings??
 
  • Agree
Reactions: yeshuasavedme
Upvote 0

jaybird88

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2015
400
115
✟42,893.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, I read what you wrote. Maybe you did not understand my argument? I get that you will never tell anybody what is scripture. So, everyone is free to decide for themselves what is/is not "scripture". Then each person becomes the ultimate judge as to what is/is not "the word of God". I understand that this is your point view - but I do not share that understanding.

what do we use the spirit of truth for?
 
Upvote 0

Petros2015

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2016
5,107
4,331
52
undisclosed Bunker
✟290,907.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
all source text of Arius were ordered destroyed as a direct result of this council.

Arius taught that Christ was a created being, "There was a time when He was Not." was their rallying cry. ...do you want that source text returned? I think it may have been similar to Jehovah's Witness theology today (not sure about that though)

The decision against Arius was close to unanimous with only a couple of bishops dissenting at the end.

Ecumenical Councils of bishops settled disputes on dogma such as these in the early Church trusting that the Spirit was present in the sum of them. I believe that surveys were taken of the early writings that each individual church had. In correspondence between bishops each gave their ranking and opinion of the works that were in their possession and told what they would read in their churches and what they did not feel was appropriate. Things that all the bishops agreed on and and were undisputed became the core canon. Other things fell into the highly ranked or regarded categories, ones in dispute were not included and eventually the Bible was assembled. Jude, I believe was in question at one point but made it in. Book of Enoch did not.

I think it's interesting, but not something I would rely on or trust on anything like the level of biblical scripture.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jaybird88

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2015
400
115
✟42,893.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Arius taught that Christ was a created being, "There was a time when He was Not." was their rallying cry. ...do you want that source text returned? I think it may have been similar to Jehovah's Witness theology today (not sure about that though)

the truth of it is we have no idea what Arius wrote being as rome destroyed all his works. rome would kill Jewish rabis and church fathers, many times they would wrap them in their scriptures before setting them on fire. how many did Arius kill?
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,819
✟323,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
these are meant to be understood IMO as not adding to that specific book it is mentioned in. when book of numbers says dont add to my word its talking about the book of numbers. if its really meant to mean dont add any other books then you are going to have to dismiss every book after the book of numbers.
Well I disagree, because it is said twice, once in the Old Testament and then again in the New Testament.

So if God was just talking about the Book of Numbers, He would not have repeated the same thing again in the New Testament.

The other thing is I would advise against drawing your own conclusions and search the scriptures for answers. But it is up to you how you do it.
 
Upvote 0

jaybird88

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2015
400
115
✟42,893.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well I disagree, because it is said twice, once in the Old Testament and then again in the New Testament.

So if God was just talking about the Book of Numbers, He would not have repeated the same thing again in the New Testament.

The other thing is I would advise against drawing your own conclusions and search the scriptures for answers. But it is up to you how you do it.

so the first time the Most High commands not to add to His word, every book after that should not be part of the bible?
this command not to add to His word is not found once in the Hebrew bible and once in the NT, it is found throughout the bible, probably at least ten times.
i have studied the scriptures, St paul says all scriptures are of the breath of the Most High and good for teaching, we know he was well aware of Enoch being as Jude was quoting it in his teachings and they were contemporaries, teaching the same message and following the same teacher.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,819
✟323,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
so the first time the Most High commands not to add to His word, every book after that should not be part of the bible?
i have studied the scriptures, St paul says all scriptures are of the breath of the Most High and good for teaching, we know he was well aware of Enoch being as Jude was quoting it in his teachings and they were contemporaries, teaching the same message and following the same teacher.
If that is your understanding, you roll with it.

But please do not put words in my mouth.

I don't think Enoch being mentioned in the Bible is the same as the uncannonized book of Enoch which is not scripture. A book is not the same thing as a person.

Also, I don't believe that Enoch is a contemporatry of Jude, I believe Enoch is related to Noah.

Enoch was the son of Jared (Genesis 5:19–21), the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,819
✟323,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
this command not to add to His word is not found once in the Hebrew bible and once in the NT, it is found throughout the bible, probably at least ten times.
If you have a list of the verses of these 10 times it is mentioned, I would be interested.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jaybird88

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2015
400
115
✟42,893.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If that is your understanding, you roll with it.

But please do not put words in my mouth.

this is the only conclusion i can get from your theory. when we see the command, do not add, every book (scripture) from that point on is not allowed.

I don't think Enoch being mentioned in the Bible is the same as the uncannonized book of Enoch which is not scripture. A book is not the same thing as a person.

we do know its the same as Jude is quoting what is written in the book of Enoch.

Also, I don't believe that Enoch is a contemporatry of Jude, I believe Enoch is related to Noah.

Enoch was the son of Jared (Genesis 5:19–21), the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah

you misunderstood, Paul and Jude were contemporaries and they were teaching the same message. Paul would not say all scripture is inspired and good for teaching when Jude is teaching from Enoch at the same time Paul makes this statement. they knew what scriptures the other was reading
 
Upvote 0

jaybird88

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2015
400
115
✟42,893.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If you have a list of the verses of these 10 times it is mentioned, I would be interested.
all i could find ATM

Deuteronomy 4:2
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.


Revelation 22:18-19

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I certainly do not see any problem in saying what I said; I thought the topic was what was wrong with the book of Enoch and who considers it wrong. I do not believe it is the word of God, but it is a history (not necessarily accurate) like the Talmuds or Acts.
Yes....but Acts is history: Enoch is inspired.
Remember, Luke quoted Stephen in Acts 7. Luke quoted Stephen's speech acurately, but Stephen did not have the accurate Torah timeline on the history of Israel or of Moses, being raised on oral tradition, written down.
Paul had access to Torah and all the books,
Therefore Paul correctly writes "the promise to the Law was 430 years".
Galations 4: 15-17.

Stephen had a wrong history, and had Israel as slaves/oppressed in Egypt 400 years. Acts 7:6, 7.

Stephen was the first martyr, loved by Jesus, and caused the Jews to gnash their teeth at his witness of Messiah, so they killed him, but his understanding of his ancestors' history is proven error by the Torah, itself - and corroborated by the Jewish histories.
Moses' mother was Jochebed, who was the daughter of Levi. Exodus 6:20, Numbers 26:59.
Moses was 82 when he led Israel out of Egypt.
His mother was 128 when she gave birth to Moses.
Israel was in Egypt for 210* years.
The promise was 230 years before Israel went into Egypt.
Jacob was 130 years old when he went into Egypt -and settled in the best part. Genesis 47:8-11.
The promise was 100 years before Jacob went in. Isaac was 60 years old when Jacob was born to him. Genesis 25:26.
Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born. Genesis 21:5. Abraham had the promise before even Ishmael was born.
Abram was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. Genesis 16:16.
The promise was given to Abraham before Ishmael was born....several years, in fact.

When Israel entered Egypt, they were given the best land, because of Joseph, and were not oppressed until some time after Joseph died.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Petros2015
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,434
3,716
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟222,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As we all know, the book of Enoch was excluded from both Catholic and Protestant bibles
A great many other writing were also "excluded" from the Bible. The Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the "gospels" of Thomas, Philip, Judas, and others, the apocalypses of Paul, James, and Adam, and lots of other stuff. Face it, not everything ever written ended up in the Bible. The Canon is about what pretty much all the Churches considered holy writ. Enoch didn't make the cut.

Why is that the case though? Enoch was listed as an Old Testament Patriarch, and many of the names of God's angels are listed in it.
Hey, my name is Joseph, should my writings be included in the Bible?

Biggest problems with Enoch is that it's of unknown provenance, and is filled with stuff that's objectively hogwash. Dunno about you, but it doesn't take much hogwash in a writing for me to discount it as the Word of God. "The Book of the Heavenly Luminaries" is particularly ridiculous, with a very imaginitive description of celestial mechanics, and purportedly delivered by an angel, who would presumably have known better. IMO, all of Enoch that was worth knowing is already included in the Bible.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums