[open] For those of us who are liberal, why?

razzelflabben · May 17, 2017

Fantine said:
Razzelflabben, I refer you to hedrick's quote.

I refer you to my reply...I get the whole living like Christ thing I don't get the make it a law thing which forces people to do this or that.

Fantine · May 17, 2017

I would call it shared abundance, which many economists say increases abundance.

razzelflabben · May 17, 2017

Fantine said:
I would call it shared abundance, which many economists say increases abundance.

no matter what you call it, if it is law it is still forced which seems to me to be contrary to what scripture teaches which is what I don't understand and no matter what you think I am just simply trying to understand.

Fantine · May 17, 2017

Jesus said render to Caesar. I don't believe Jesus would launch political protests against compassionate humanism that increases the middle class, thereby increasing prosperity for all.

razzelflabben · May 17, 2017

Fantine said:
Jesus said render to Caesar. I don't believe Jesus would launch political protests against compassionate humanism that increases the middle class, thereby increasing prosperity for all.

the teaching about render to Caesar was about paying taxes not about wanting the government to mandate godliness so I still don't get it...maybe I'm just dense but I really would like to understand this mindset.

hedrick · May 17, 2017

razzelflabben said:
the liberal agenda is to pass more and more laws that demand people be treated a certain way that is a forced thing which is the core of what I do NOT understand about the whole issue and the reason I am asking.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not interested in compelling people to do things except to avoid abusing others. In general I'd be happy to allow ways to avoid people violating their consciences.

The PCUSA, of which I'm part, now accepts gay marriage, but the rules are specifically designed to allow individual pastors and congregations not to participate. I'm pretty sure other denominations are the same. Outside the church, I don't think it's liberal Christianity that is causing trouble. I'd be happy to allow clerks not to sign marriage licenses, etc, as long as someone did it.

I don't know how common the issue is with laws. There have been some cases that seem like a bad idea: prosecuting wedding photographers, etc. I wouldn't favor that. But in a situation where every incident creates national publicity, it's hard to know how big a problem it actually is. There are unwise prosecutions on all kinds of issues.

Historically the problem has been the reverse, with laws restricting gays, transgenders, etc. Even today the issues with transgenders are normally State legislatures trying to restrict schools from accepting them.

razzelflabben · May 17, 2017

hedrick said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not interested in compelling people to do things except to avoid abusing others. In general I'd be happy to allow ways to avoid people violating their consciences.

The PCUSA, of which I'm part, now accepts gay marriage, but the rules are specifically designed to allow individual pastors and congregations not to participate. I'm pretty sure other denominations are the same. Outside the church, I don't think it's liberal Christianity that is causing trouble. I'd be happy to allow clerks not to sign marriage licenses, etc, as long as someone did it.

I don't know how common the issue is with laws. There have been some cases that seem like a bad idea: prosecuting wedding photographers, etc. I wouldn't favor that. But in a situation where every incident creates national publicity, it's hard to know how big a problem it actually is. There are unwise prosecutions on all kinds of issues.

Historically the problem has been the reverse, with laws restricting gays, transgenders, etc. Even today the issues with transgenders are normally State legislatures trying to restrict schools from accepting them.

so you aren't really liberal you are somewhere in between. Thanks for clarifying

hedrick · May 17, 2017

razzelflabben said:
so you aren't really liberal you are somewhere in between. Thanks for clarifying

Liberal doesn't mean that someone wants to compel other people to agree with them. I don't judge conservatives by Westoro Baptist Church's actions. You shouldn't judge liberal Christians by extremists either.

hedrick · May 17, 2017

It's important to understand that liberal Christianity isn't primarily about controversial social issues. I was in high school when many of the critical events in the civil rights movement occurred. For major participants it was the focus of their lives for a while. My church and others supported it, and some of members were involved. But mostly in church we worshipped God and tried to live Christian lives.

it's the same today. There are people who are focused on these issues. I understand why, and I agree with most of what they want. But while liberal Christians generally accept gay ordination and gay marriage, that's not what liberal Christianity is about. Liberal Christianity is about Christ. Our churches spend their time doing more or less the same things as conservative churches, though our theology and Biblical scholarship has some differences.

What liberal Christianity means historically is that our theology and scholarship use critical methods that developed out of the Enlightenment. But the goal is still to follow Jesus, with the best possible understanding of what he did, what he wants from us, and the implications of his life and teaching on how we understand God.

razzelflabben · May 18, 2017

hedrick said:
Liberal doesn't mean that someone wants to compel other people to agree with them. I don't judge conservatives by Westoro Baptist Church's actions. You shouldn't judge liberal Christians by extremists either.

ah...that wasn't what I was saying or doing. The liberal agenda is big government that makes laws governing all facets of our lives. What you described is a cross between libertarians which is small government where we make our own decisions and liberal where the government makes laws restricting our own conscious. The only comparison is that of what the term refers to.

razzelflabben · May 18, 2017

hedrick said:
It's important to understand that liberal Christianity isn't primarily about controversial social issues. I was in high school when many of the critical events in the civil rights movement occurred. For major participants it was the focus of their lives for a while. My church and others supported it, and some of members were involved. But mostly in church we worshipped God and tried to live Christian lives.

it's the same today. There are people who are focused on these issues. I understand why, and I agree with most of what they want. But while liberal Christians generally accept gay ordination and gay marriage, that's not what liberal Christianity is about. Liberal Christianity is about Christ. Our churches spend their time doing more or less the same things as conservative churches, though our theology and Biblical scholarship has some differences.

What liberal Christianity means historically is that our theology and scholarship use critical methods that developed out of the Enlightenment. But the goal is still to follow Jesus, with the best possible understanding of what he did, what he wants from us, and the implications of his life and teaching on how we understand God.

what I didn't understand and the reason I asked is how mercy, grace, love, etc. equals laws that force people to conform to the religious beliefs that the christian holds? You answered that by saying that you believe in a mix of liberalism and libertarian-ism. Which honestly makes a lot more sense even though I am much more libertarian than you are....the key for me is the passage that tells us that we are to give without compulsion. Yes that is referring to tithe but I find the concept consistent with everything we do. Living a life that mirror's Christ's is not about force but about willingly yielding. At least that is how I see it. Like I said, you explained you are somewhere in the middle which makes a lot more sense to my mental process than being liberal as a whole and even though we disagree I appreciate the time you took to explain it to me.

Arcangl86 · May 18, 2017

razzelflabben said:
ah...that wasn't what I was saying or doing. The liberal agenda is big government that makes laws governing all facets of our lives. What you described is a cross between libertarians which is small government where we make our own decisions and liberal where the government makes laws restricting our own conscious. The only comparison is that of what the term refers to.

If you read the statement of purpose, it's quite clear that Liberal theology and Liberal politics aren't the same thing.

razzelflabben · May 19, 2017

Arcangl86 said:
If you read the statement of purpose, it's quite clear that Liberal theology and Liberal politics aren't the same thing.

and...you still didn't answer the question

Arcangl86 · May 23, 2017

razzelflabben said:
and...you still didn't answer the question

Not everybody who is a liberal christian is politically liberal. Your question is based on a false premise.

SnowyMacie · May 23, 2017

It started in college, I took, like every other sophomore at my school, "Old Testament Survey." Growing up, I was taught the Israelites sinned against God, but never told why and so I assumed it was things like violence, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. However, when I actually read and studied the prophets, I realized their chief sin was, at best, ignoring the poor and needy, at worst, downright exploiting them. Those others were still there, but that didn't seem to be focus of God. This God actually fit with Jesus, and I realized the true scandal of the gospels isn't just that Jesus is God, but that God is like Jesus.

Over my years as an upperclassmen, I reflected on my views and realized that if I claimed follow Jesus, I couldn't not support thing like universal healthcare, welfare, livable wages, affordable education, etc.. Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality or even abortion, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity.

razzelflabben · May 23, 2017

Arcangl86 said:
Not everybody who is a liberal christian is politically liberal. Your question is based on a false premise.

ah, not the assumption at all but obviously since you want to make assumptions we won't get an answer so have a good day.

razzelflabben · May 23, 2017

TX_Matt said:
It started in college, I took, like every other sophomore at my school, "Old Testament Survey." Growing up, I was taught the Israelites sinned against God, but never told why and so I assumed it was things like violence, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. However, when I actually read and studied the prophets, I realized their chief sin was, at best, ignoring the poor and needy, at worst, downright exploiting them. Those others were still there, but that didn't seem to be focus of God. This God actually fit with Jesus, and I realized the true scandal of the gospels isn't just that Jesus is God, but that God is like Jesus.

Over my years as an upperclassmen, I reflected on my views and realized that if I claimed follow Jesus, I couldn't not support thing like universal healthcare, welfare, livable wages, affordable education, etc.. Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality or even abortion, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity.

again, how does forced care equal Christ who said to give willingly without compulsion? This is what I can't figure out about the liberal mindset as it applies to our faith.

Arcangl86 · May 23, 2017

razzelflabben said:
ah, not the assumption at all but obviously since you want to make assumptions we won't get an answer so have a good day.

Your question is all about Liberal politics. Just because somebody believes in using modern scholarship to read and understand the bible (That's what Liberal Christianity means) doesn't mean that their political ideologies are going to be progressive. Conservative Christians can favor progressive policies in certain areas as well. You are conflating how one understands revelation to how one votes. They are not the same thing.

razzelflabben · May 23, 2017

Arcangl86 said:
Your question is all about Liberal politics. Just because somebody believes in using modern scholarship to read and understand the bible (That's what Liberal Christianity means) doesn't mean that their political ideologies are going to be progressive. Conservative Christians can favor progressive policies in certain areas as well. You are conflating how one understands revelation to how one votes. They are not the same thing.

cool....so give me an example of this played out in real life so I can figure out what you don't get about what I'm asking.

PloverWing · Jun 1, 2017

razzelflabben said:
cool....so give me an example of this played out in real life so I can figure out what you don't get about what I'm asking.

I think you're asking about people who are theologically conservative and politically liberal; and, conversely, theologically liberal and politically conservative.

In the first category, Jim Wallis (of Sojourners) and Ron Sider (of Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger) are two examples of theologically conservative Evangelical Christians who support public policies that care for the poor, for racial minorities, and for the environment.

In the second category, the stereotypical Republican of my childhood years (before the emergence of the Moral Majority -- I'm old!) was a wealthy, Ivy-League-educated businessman who belonged to a mainline Presbyterian, Congregational, or Episcopal church and favored public policies that protected the interests of business. Some of the people in this population would qualify as theologically liberal and politically conservative.

(Note, of course, that "politically liberal" is not a monolithic category. One's positions on abortion, and pacifism, and racial issues, and the environment, and poverty, and tariffs on imports can all be chosen independently of each other. People like Sider, whose views do not completely line up with either political party, can be difficult to classify.)

[open] For those of us who are liberal, why?

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