LDS Mormon Jesus was not always God

dzheremi

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Huh. It has a sort of parallel to the Scientology/body thetan thing, where Scientologists are taught that these alien spirits called 'thetans' inhabit or attach themselves (I can't remember which) to our bodies when we are born. Weird. Mormonism is really weird.

Also, I don't know if that's your phrasing or the phrasing typical of Mormonism, Phoebe Ann, but suggesting that spirits have a life cycle and material dimensions by which they may be described as being 'full grown' is also really odd. I don't know what to make of it. Baby spirits for spirit babies, I suppose! :confused:
 
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Jane_Doe

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Huh. It has a sort of parallel to the Scientology/body thetan thing, where Scientologists are taught that these alien spirits called 'thetans' inhabit or attach themselves (I can't remember which) to our bodies when we are born. Weird. Mormonism is really weird.
Do you not believe that you have a body and a spirit?
 
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dzheremi

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Yes, I believe that the spirit is integral to all of mankind. The part that is weird to me is the belief in either case wherein it is separated from the person such that it is appropriate to talk about it being 'full grown', 'attaching', etc., which gives it its own parallel existence to that of the person it 'inhabits', rather than being integral to him or her, as I suppose I just assumed would be the case (not for any special reason; I just didn't know about this aspect of Mormon thought).
 
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Jane_Doe

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Yes, I believe that the spirit is integral to all of mankind. The part that is weird to me is the belief in either case wherein it is separated from the person such that it is appropriate to talk about it being 'full grown', 'attaching', etc., which gives it its own parallel existence to that of the person it 'inhabits', rather than being integral to him or her, as I suppose I just assumed would be the case (not for any special reason; I just didn't know about this aspect of Mormon thought).
THat's Pheobe's wording, not standard LDS.
 
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Rescued One

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Huh. It has a sort of parallel to the Scientology/body thetan thing, where Scientologists are taught that these alien spirits called 'thetans' inhabit or attach themselves (I can't remember which) to our bodies when we are born. Weird. Mormonism is really weird.

Also, I don't know if that's your phrasing or the phrasing typical of Mormonism, Phoebe Ann, but suggesting that spirits have a life cycle and material dimensions by which they may be described as being 'full grown' is also really odd. I don't know what to make of it. Baby spirits for spirit babies, I suppose! :confused:

SPIRIT BODIES
Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father. Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities. The bodies so created have all the parts of mortal bodies. The Brother of Jared* saw Christ's spirit finger and then his whole spirit body. "I am Jesus Christ," that glorious Person said. "This body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh." (Ether 3:14-17.)
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 750

*A person mentioned in the Book of Mormon

Book of Mormon, Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

If a parent lost a child in infancy and was sealed to that child, Joseph F. Smith taught the following:

After the resurrection, a child’s body will grow to match the stature of the spirit.

Would we be satisfied to see the children we bury in their infancy remain as children only, throughout the countless ages of eternity? No! Neither would the spirits that did possess the tabernacles of our children be satisfied to remain in that condition. But we know our children will not be compelled to remain as a child in stature always, for it was revealed from God, the fountain of truth, through Joseph Smith the prophet, in this dispensation, that in the resurrection of the dead the child that was buried in its infancy will come up in the form of the child that it was when it was laid down; then it will begin to develop. From the day of the resurrection, the body will develop until it reaches the full measure of the stature of its spirit, whether it be male or female. If the spirit possessed the intelligence of God and the aspirations of mortal souls, it could not be satisfied with anything less than this. You will remember we are told that the spirit of Jesus Christ visited one of the ancient prophets and revealed himself to him, and he declared his identity, that he was the same Son of God that was to come in the meridian of time. He said he would appear in the flesh just as he appeared to that prophet [see Ether 3:9, 16–17]. He was not an infant; he was a grown, developed spirit; possessing the form of man and the form of God, the same form as when he came and took upon him a tabernacle and developed it to the full stature of his spirit.
Teachings: Joseph F. Smith Chapter 15: The Salvation of Little Children
 
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Peter1000

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Huh. It has a sort of parallel to the Scientology/body thetan thing, where Scientologists are taught that these alien spirits called 'thetans' inhabit or attach themselves (I can't remember which) to our bodies when we are born. Weird. Mormonism is really weird.

Also, I don't know if that's your phrasing or the phrasing typical of Mormonism, Phoebe Ann, but suggesting that spirits have a life cycle and material dimensions by which they may be described as being 'full grown' is also really odd. I don't know what to make of it. Baby spirits for spirit babies, I suppose! :confused:
You have a lot to learn about the spirit inside of you.
 
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Peter1000

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Yes, I believe that the spirit is integral to all of mankind. The part that is weird to me is the belief in either case wherein it is separated from the person such that it is appropriate to talk about it being 'full grown', 'attaching', etc., which gives it its own parallel existence to that of the person it 'inhabits', rather than being integral to him or her, as I suppose I just assumed would be the case (not for any special reason; I just didn't know about this aspect of Mormon thought).
The ultimate body will be when the spirit and the flesh and bone are connected together for all eternity. This integral connection between the spirit and the body will take place at the time of resurrection. It is with this perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit that Jesus now exists in and what you and I will exist in for all eternity. Mormons believe that if Jesus exists in a perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit and is of the same substance as the Father, then the Father also has a body of flesh and bone and spirit.

The exaltation of the body of flesh and bone and spirit is at a higher level than even a perfect, resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. God the Father and Jesus Christ and all those people that were resurrected on the day that Jesus was resurrected have exalted bodies of flesh and bone and spirit. Not all that will be resurrected will have the opportunity to have exalted bodies. Only those that are worthy of the Lamb.
 
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dzheremi

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If a parent lost a child in infancy and was sealed to that child, Joseph F. Smith taught the following:

After the resurrection, a child’s body will grow to match the stature of the spirit.


Here's what I don't get about that kind of thinking:

If spirit is immaterial (and I must assume Mormons think it is, given their oft-repeated belief that the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone whereas the Spirit does not, but has a "body of spirit" or whatever the exact wording is), then how can it have a growth cycle or physical stature, as this teaching clearly says it does? We know they cannot mean stature in the non-material sense (i.e., as a synonym for reputation or importance), because then they could not say that the child's body would grow to match it (as there'd be nothing to match in the first place).

So this is really nonsensical. I mean, most Mormon teachings are nonsensical, but this one doesn't even work within the framework which they themselves have set up.
 
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Jane_Doe

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If spirit is immaterial (and I must assume Mormons think it is, given their oft-repeated belief that the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone whereas the Spirit does not, but has a "body of spirit" or whatever the exact wording is), then how can it have a growth cycle or physical stature, as this teaching clearly says it does?

The Spirit will have the
opportunity to have a body at a later time.
I mean, most Mormon teachings are nonsensical
Remember: forum rules specifically state: "Members may not blatantly mock, degrade or belittle each others' religious beliefs or practices."
 
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Peter1000

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Yes, I believe that the spirit is integral to all of mankind. The part that is weird to me is the belief in either case wherein it is separated from the person such that it is appropriate to talk about it being 'full grown', 'attaching', etc., which gives it its own parallel existence to that of the person it 'inhabits', rather than being integral to him or her, as I suppose I just assumed would be the case (not for any special reason; I just didn't know about this aspect of Mormon thought).
How Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother integrated the mind and will and spirit into a living, rational being is unknown to anyone. We can not talk to these details. Only to say that it happened.

How God then breaths this spirit being into our baby bodies and how that integration takes place is unknown to anyone also, other than to say, it takes place, because we know from the scriptures that there is a spirit inside of each of us.

The scriptures do give us snapshots of this pre-mortal existence, in fact from the NT we know the spirit has shape or form. We know that there is at least 1 gender and that is male. We know that it is invisible to the human eye, unless God opens your eyes so that they can see the world of spirits. (2kings 6:14-17)

From modern scriptures we are given more information. We are told that the spirit not only has shape and form, but that:
See D&C 131:7
"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes". This is what the scriptures mean when it says, the Lord opened their eyes and they were able to see.
2Kings 6:14-17
We know that spirits are both male and female. We know we were in family units before we came to earth. We know that all of us that came to earth kept their first estate, meaning they were loyal to God and Jesus and Michael in the war of heaven. We know why there was a war in heaven. We know that satan was called lucifer in the pre-mortal life, and that he was kicked out of heaven to this earth to tempt and give opposition to the mission of Jesus Christ.

There are pages I could write, so I will stop.

You have to ask yourself the same kind of inquisitive questions. If you believe that God breathed into Adam the breath of life and Adam became a living soul.
How does God's breath become integrated with Adams flesh and bone body?
How does that breath actually stay in the body and why does it not seep out, or how does it not dissipate?
Does the breath of life take on the form of the body?
Where does the breath of life go, after the body is dead?
How is the breath of life integrated back into the body at the resurrection?

Like I say, there is lots to learn about the spirit in you.
 
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dzheremi

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Remember: forum rules specifically state: "Members may not blatantly mock, degrade or belittle each others' religious beliefs or practices."

How is it mocking the Mormon belief to call it nonsensical in the context of a post that is all about how I do not see the sense in it? I don't see how it fits together with other things Mormons have told me that you guys believe. You could easily say the same thing about Christian beliefs such as how one God can be in three Persons, and it would not be an insult. I did not say it was dumb or that you are dumb for believing it. I said it was lacking sense. I can't make sense of it. It's nonsensical.

I would say the same about most Mormon beliefs insofar as they differ from Christianity, and would expect Mormons to say the same (as you guys totally do without such 'reminders' from me) regarding those beliefs of Christianity that seem like nonsense in light of what Mormonism teaches, e.g., creation ex nihilo. After all, we are different religions, so I do not expect us to agree in everything, but I don't think it's wrong to expect Mormonism to agree with itself, or to point out when it does not seem to be doing so.
 
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Rescued One

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Here's what I don't get about that kind of thinking:

If spirit is immaterial (and I must assume Mormons think it is, given their oft-repeated belief that the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone whereas the Spirit does not, but has a "body of spirit" or whatever the exact wording is), then how can it have a growth cycle or physical stature, as this teaching clearly says it does? We know they cannot mean stature in the non-material sense (i.e., as a synonym for reputation or importance), because then they could not say that the child's body would grow to match it (as there'd be nothing to match in the first place).

So this is really nonsensical. I mean, most Mormon teachings are nonsensical, but this one doesn't even work within the framework which they themselves have set up.

The Mormons don't believe spirits are immaterial. Nothing is immaterial in their view. All spirit is matter.
 
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Rescued One

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How is the 'spirit body' materially distinguished from the physical bodies they say are possessed by the Father and the Son, then? What is the point of specifying which 'type' of material body each has?
"All spirit is matter, but is is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; we cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." (D. & C. 131;7-8.)

I feel like I just stepped into the Twilight Zone.

P. S. The spirit body goes into the physical one.
 
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“This earth was created first spiritually. It was a spirit earth. Nothing then lived on its face, nor was it designed that anything should. Then came the physical creation, the paradisiacal creation, the creation of the earth in the Edenic day and before the fall of man. …

“It was Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, who, under the direction of his Father, came down and organized matter and made this planet. …

“… It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth was formed? …"
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 7: The Creation

  • “The earth will abide its creation, and will be counted worthy of receiving the blessings designed for it, and will ultimately roll back into the presence of God who formed it and established its mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms. These will all be retained upon the earth, come forth in the resurrection, and abide for ever and for ever” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, 101–2)...



 
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mmksparbud

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The ultimate body will be when the spirit and the flesh and bone are connected together for all eternity. This integral connection between the spirit and the body will take place at the time of resurrection. It is with this perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit that Jesus now exists in and what you and I will exist in for all eternity. Mormons believe that if Jesus exists in a perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit and is of the same substance as the Father, then the Father also has a body of flesh and bone and spirit.

The exaltation of the body of flesh and bone and spirit is at a higher level than even a perfect, resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. God the Father and Jesus Christ and all those people that were resurrected on the day that Jesus was resurrected have exalted bodies of flesh and bone and spirit. Not all that will be resurrected will have the opportunity to have exalted bodies. Only those that are worthy of the Lamb.

Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

How can the Father be made pf flesh bone and spirit? The Son, lowered Himself to be one of us---not the Father.

This means that Jesus had to ask for the power from His Father to do whatever needed to be done, just as we have to ask Him. The Father never lowered Himself to the human level.

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I'll take the word of Jesus.
 
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Peter1000

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I'm sure that makes you feel better. but I was on many of these Mormon threads for a very long time until I finally had enough of hearing about all the real believes that I decided to back away from it all. I read your Doctrines and covenants, Pearl of Great Price and all that and I find it all non-Christian and do not understand how anyone can believe in it.
This is the state of mind that one must approach God about these things:
Moroni 10:4-5
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

That is the Christian way to ask God if something is true. The bible is full of this same testimony of the HS being able to speak to your spirit and tell it the truth of things.

I do not know what your intent was, or your state of mind
when you read the D&C and others, but for you to say it was all non-Christian, then I would assume that you asked with the same vitriol mind that you address Mormons on this forum. And if that is the case, the HS will not be with you, you will be left in the dark to make your way by yourself.

If you want to know the truth about these things, you have to approach God humbly and sincerely, only then may you hear the HS speak to you, and only then can God open up to your mind, marvelous things that you cannot comprehend now in your state of mind. May God be with you as you search for the truth.
 
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dzheremi

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This is the state of mind that one must approach God about these things:
Moroni 10:4-5
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

That is the Christian way to ask God if something is true.

No, that's the Mormon way of doing things. The Christian way is to hold fast to the traditions that you have received whether by word or by writing (2 Thessalonians 2:15). It's not to trust the purity or sincerity of your own heart and intentions, as the Bible has other words about that -- words of warning: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
 
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