Can it be moral not to seek job for a jobless?

peter2 said:

Hello rjs, thank you for your dispassionate post that channels my anxiety.
Yet, on the other hand, the relevant quotes you send me are acting as a kind of perverse directive that hurts me, however benevolent I believe God wants them to be.
The reason why I have this sensation I explain all along this thread. All right I do know a central heating installer that told me he didn't lack work. He is a self employed worker, and I shall ask him to to teach me his profession through apprenticeship, however highly rare (I never ever saw this) the procedure is between an employer and a 47 year old jobseeker. This kind of procedure happens usually with 16 year old people. I guess the apprenticeship might be two years long, and I hope there 'll be still work left from now to then. Hypothetical!
What's more, even if I intend to do this, what stops myself me to continue along this path is this argument I develop in the first quote of this post, as well as the deep feeling competition for work does not promote brotherhood.

Click to expand...

Well, God does not always tell us things in benevolence. Sometimes he just says things flat out and he does not really care if it hurts our feelings. God instructs us how we ought to live and sometimes it's difficult. I know I personally have been seriously challenged by His word and have had my feelings hurt by what he says. But you know what as David said, thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Sometimes God speaks to us to wake us up and shake us up. The real question is are we listening? I know I can be hard headed sometimes. We all can be. I believe you want to do what God wants you to do. What does God want in this subject? Well it's in the verses I gave you. Do what I believe you capable of and that is to heed his words and follow them.

peter2 said:

I'm not resentful at God's shaking up, for I'm not sure this shaking up originates in His words:
I actually think a christian value, work, through its rarefaction, has been converted into a worldly one, competition, against which I struggle. I fear indeed to participate in iniquity promoting, for Jesus told love of many will cool, and I fear love losing through worldly value promoting. What's your advice as for my fear?

Click to expand...

I think your fear of getting caught up in worldly competition is well placed. That will keep you from being mired in it. Just follow scripture. The Bible says whatever your hands find to do do it with all your might. That means to work and work hard at it. Do the very best you can do. Secondly God says in his word to do all things to the glory of God. So when you work you are not working to promote yourself but you are working to promote God and you are doing for his glory not yours.
Thirdly there is no such thing as the Christian value of work. That is God's value.not mine or my pastors or your fellow believers. It's God's and you can't go wrong following God's values as long as you follow all that he says. Work, work hard, do it for his glory and use your resources to help others. Get the right mind set and you will be just fine and will be a great example to your employer and be a blessing to others.

Work.

Don't willingly not work and receive money.

Work is good for your mental health, provides taxable income to provide for those who CANNOT work, provides funding for tithes and offerings and serves as a platform for witnessing.

peter2 said:

I agree




( Answer I gave formerly to ysj, telling me there's always something to do)


Is it God's or your's? Actually, do you mean seek, seek or work, work hard? For your proposition meets with my description of frenzied competition I call worldly activity. It paves the way to indifference and makes the one that does it someone responsible for the fall of many. There's no room left for developping talent of minding others in their fate. If there were no unemployment, I would fully agree with you, but there is. We are no longer at Jesus's or Paul's time when people didn't lack work.
I agree

Click to expand...

It's Gods words right?

1 Thessalonians 4:9-12 ESV / 55 helpful votes
Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another, for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

What does it say?

to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

Now that is only one verse I quoted. You can re-read the others I posted. That is God telling you to work not me. Combine that with New International Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

And God is telling you to work and work hard. Why do we do that? To provide for family, help others and I quote "so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one." Are we working to bring glory to God? If we have the mind of Christ we are working to bring glory to God because we are walking properly before outsiders. Being on unemployment in being dependent on others and is not fulfilling the admonition to walk properly before outsiders. That has NOTHING to do with competition or worldly frenzy. Again those is GOD's words not mine. So my dear friend you have a decision to make. Which is to follow Gods way which is to work, work hard, provide for your family, give to others, glorify God and walk properly before outsiders and not be dependent on others. I think you can do it.

peter2 said:

It looks like yet that even when God's word is involved, Jesus's reply against pharisianic thinking about sabbath (He didn't rebuke the Jews for the letting go off of any ox that would have fallen in the well during sabbath)is an appeal to stand firm on sensible discernment, regardless of non-observance of God's word. In the same way, men's duty is to sensibly behave as for their liabilities towards our planet, by choosing adequate activities, environment-friendly. My decision will be delayed, but I still ask for your contradictive opinion, so as to grow according truthseeking. Thank you.

Click to expand...

There is a lot of truth here.

I think this is why Jesus summed up the entire law as love. It is difficult (impossible?) to codify behavior that will be right in EVERY circumstance, if applied dogmatically and legalistically.

For example, it is a good thing to set aside money dedicated to God. But if that money should have fed your aging parents who rely on you, it would be a wrong heart that would deny those parents. Especially when you consider it is very possible that a prideful desire for recognition for giving could be the motive. Somehow, our sinful inclinations tend to take what God intends for good and twist it to something else. But a true dedication to uphold love will show the right way.

We also know that more important than strictly following the law is following one's conscience, if it is stricter than the law. A thing might be allowed, but if we believe in our hearts that it would be sinful, then it IS sinful, for us.

You keep mentioning the environment? You feel some jobs are environmentally destructive? It's hard to comment on that in a general sense. On one hand, we are to be good stewards of the earth. On the other, I believe God will sustain the earth to the necessary degree to complete His plans. And from the point of view of our impact, I think sometimes we overestimate how much impact we can have on the global environment. But then again, some things we do really DO have a terrible impact. And discerning which of those is the case relies on the reports of environmental science, which sometimes errs in either direction - I suspect there can be motives attached to that as well. That makes "love" as a guiding principle a difficult one to follow in these situations.

I'm just guessing at your dilemma though.

peter2 said:

It looks like yet that even when God's word is involved, Jesus's reply against pharisianic thinking about sabbath (He didn't rebuke the Jews for the letting go off of any ox that would have fallen in the well during sabbath)is an appeal to stand firm on sensible discernment, regardless of non-observance of God's word. In the same way, men's duty is to sensibly behave as for their liabilities towards our planet, by choosing adequate activities, environment-friendly. My decision will be delayed, but I still ask for your contradictive opinion, so as to grow according truthseeking. Thank you.

Click to expand...

Well I have to admit that I am a bit confused here. What I share is not opinion. It's God's word. An opinion is just a thought one has about something. I am not sure where opinion applies where God's word says we should work. That's not opinion. There is a difference.

Anyway I do think we need to be discerning as to what we do for work. For example we wouldn't want to work in a inappropriate contentography shop or as an assassin or for the mob extorting people. So I agree fully that discernment comes into play when choosing a good job. But certainly barring those things we should be working and not depending on others as the Bible says. As Anatasia pointed out love is important in this. Being dependant on others to provide for us is not a loving act when we are fully capable of working. Love for others should drive us to work so that we can bring God glory and help those that need our help. Working shows others we love God because it shows our desire to fulfill his admonishment to work and we are walking in obedience. Jesus tells us that obedience is an act of love to God. Working and using our abilities to benefit our employer, fellow workers, customers etc is an act of love to them. Using the money we gain from working to assist others is also an act of love and an act of obedience.

So yes be discerning in what you do. Don't do something that would bring discredit to God. But don't get too caught up in the minutia of job discernment that you miss the larger point of obedience.

Jesus DID observe the Sabbath. To do otherwise would have been to sin, and He did not sin.

However, He DID help us to understand the spirit intended by the law.

peter2 said:

I don't

Please consider the 11th hour worker, who was initially jobless:It's the vineyard's owner that proceed to workerseeking, and He didn't rebuke the 11th hour worker as an idler for his 11 hours of inactivity

Actually, I was greatly fearing to be gambling with God's commandment until I read the preceeding parable, that makes workerseeking another legitimate custom to consider, as regard heavenly kingdom's spirit about work.

Click to expand...

Workerseeking is rare in this society though. Unless you plan to hang out at Home Depot in a city and wait for a truck to pull up and hire workers? Otherwise such opportunities are rare. And usually look for unskilled day workers at lowest pay - sometimes seeking those they can exploit as well.

The parable illustrates that God accepts those who come late - it is not intended to teach us that it's valid "work" to expect someone to come looking for our services. The likelihood in today's society is that they won't ever come ...

peter2 said:

We are no longer at Jesus's or Paul's time when people didn't lack work.

Click to expand...

Many people did not work, regardless of if work was available or not.
The command of God's Word was (and STILL IS) , if any man does not work, NEITHER SHALL HE EAT. (hunger is a motive to work; and it is to be accomplished as God Says)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

peter2 said:

In the same way, men's duty is to sensibly behave as for their liabilities towards our planet, by choosing adequate activities, environment-friendly.

Click to expand...

No. The choice of a man's duty is to obey God;
to DO what God says simply, like an obedient son obeying his earthly father.

In other words, as stated by a few earlier, get to work - just get to work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

peter2 said:

I'm only dedicated to uphold truth, for it seems to me it's the best way to find the necessary agreement to reach a loving unity. Without truth-establishing indeed, how can we converge around this necessary mutual understanding?

Click to expand...

The first step, (praying always, of course, for the last month, today, tonight, tomorrow, always), the first step is just go out and look for work.
"Roll" the choice of a job over onto God's Shoulders - HIS CHOICE; HIS KINGDOM; as HE opens a door, no man can close it; as HE closes a door, no man can open it. Tell God you depend on Him, ask God to guide your steps,
and go do whatever work there is to do today; including just walking around town looking for a job, or going to an agency for their references for work,
ANY HONEST WORK.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

peter2 said:

My conscience is stricter than law as for seeking truth, but is not as for seeking work.

Click to expand...

The TRUTH of God's Word is simple and clear.
Yes, sometimes there is literally no work available.
IF you can work helping put in furnaces legally and honestly, do that, this week.
If no work in a paying job is available, then help someone else get their house cleaned up, their yard taken care of, or their business - help them in that.
VOLUNTEER, until a paying job comes available.
TRUST GOD - He already knows what HE has scheduled.

Until you take a step, you may never know what comes after the first step.
God does not usually tell us more than a day ahead of time with certainty,
except to TRUST HIM, and work with all our heart and joy and strength.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rjs330 said:

Well I have to admit that I am a bit confused here. What I share is not opinion. It's God's word.

Click to expand...

Amein. God's Word is not wishy washy - it is simple, direct and clear.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

peter2 said:

My goal was just to make you doubt, not to bring confusion (sorry for that), so as to make truth progress, for truth progresses through doubt.

Click to expand...

Making someone doubt is not the goal here or in life.

When someone is not working, it hurts their testimony and their witness unless others see they are doing what is right and good in their circumstance - obeying God and helping others ....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

peter2 said:

Yes it should. However, my research of truth is aiming at the same targets.

Click to expand...

This is not a time for research except to lead to and find a job this week.

IF , as may be the case, God has another purpose this week, this too shall be seen. A LOT OF PRAYER is needed TODAY, Tonight, this week, in line with God's Word and the needs of the body around us and around the world. PRAYER and more PRAYER , trusting God and seeking Him and OBEDIENT to HIM in JESUS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

peter2 said:

So may be does discernment developping, which was, I believe, the spirit of Jesus's non-observance of sabbath.

Click to expand...

As already noted right after this was posted, Jesus always observed the Sabbath, YHWH'S Sabbath. He never broke TORAH.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

peter2 said:

Actually, I was greatly fearing to be gambling with God's commandment until I read the preceeding parable, that makes workerseeking another legitimate custom to consider, as regard heavenly kingdom's spirit about work.

Click to expand...

Unless
there is enough 'money' to pay all the bills, earned money,
either working is required, or seeking for work (doesn't have to be a 'job' - can be work for one day for a neighbor or a contractor),
or meeting other people's needs in the neighborhood or as made known by YHWH.

Just like God's Promise that whoever seeks Him and keeps seeking Him (every day) will find Him,
so also whoever seeks HIM, will just go out and work whatever they can find to do, either for money so they are not hungry,
or for others so that others don't go hungry,
as God grants each day.

peter2 said:

Isn't if any man doesn't want to work? I actually don't remember.

Click to expand...

MSG
Don’t you remember the rule we had when we lived with you? “If you don’t work, you don’t eat.” And now we’re getting reports that a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings are taking advantage of you. This must not be tolerated. We command them to get to work immediately—no excuses, no arguments—and earn their own keep. Friends, don’t slack off in doing your duty.

Even if there was no "employer", there is always work to do......

When I had no "employer", and no money for groceries, I went to pastors and traded working for church members they knew needed something done for 2 sacks of groceries. Or cut someone's grass for a bag of groceries... There is always someone who needs something done. I often did/do work for free also, as needed.... YHWH scheduled everything before creating the world... so He has faithful provided work that needs done, and someone to do it, perfectly.