Is the Marriage Bed Undefiled?

DaveW-Ohev said:

Are they? Based on what?

Why are those laws universal and others are not? Where is the list (in scripture) that divides up the 613 OT laws into "moral," "civil," and "ceremonial?" Does not James teach that if you violate ANY of the 613 you have violated them all?

If you are going to divy them up, you need a scripture text authorizing that division.

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That is one person's opinion.

Do you have any concept of the gravity of the Acts 15 decision?

DaveW-Ohev said:

That is one person's opinion.

Do you have any concept of the gravity of the Acts 15 decision?

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the old testament had universal moral laws, cultural universals, and ceremonial laws.

DaveW-Ohev said:

That is one person's opinion.

Do you have any concept of the gravity of the Acts 15 decision?

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leviticus 18 talked about moral issues.

Superhero Sam said:

the old testament had universal moral laws, cultural universals, and ceremonial laws.

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Show me where scripture supports that myth. God's Torah (teaching, law) is a unit and is not to be sub-divided out that way.

PollyJetix said:

Of course. God is the Creator of sex. The marriage relationship was ordained before the Fall, and it was the crowning glory of His Creation. The ability to express the oneness of selfless love, and out of that, to reproduce, becoming co-creators with Him!
It's the enemy who tries to dirty everything God created. The enemy has twisted sex into something dirty, in our minds. But as God intended it, it is the most powerful force known to man, on a natural level. Because of the sex drive, good men settle down and create homes and civilizations. But Satan tries to twist that sex drive into something that destroys homes and civilizations.

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When people say dirty do they mean obscene, sordid, regrettable? That word is used vaguely.

In the context of sexual sin it is all of those things.

AlexDTX said:

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.​

Read the Bible more than you read other people's opinions.

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Isn't that making marriage mystical?

Superhero Sam said:

Isn't that making marriage mystical?

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1 Corinthians 6:15-17 is Bible.
I don't know what you mean, about making marriage mystical.

This is how I see that scripture:
God designed marriage to join two humans into one FLESH. Not spirit.

Too many Christians try to make marriage a spiritual union. It isn't.
A husband and wife may be joined in marriage "in the Lord", but that still does not make them one spirit.
They can be joined together as brother and sister in deep spiritual union, as all believers are, in fellowship in Christ, in the unity of the Spirit. But this only comes through time spent in deep fellowship and prayer. It doesn't happen by virtue of the marriage union.

You see, God said in Malachi 2:15

"And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit..."

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God joined two into one, but reserved for himself that which is not joined together.
He reserves to Himself the 'residue' (leftover part) which is the spirit of each person.

This is why if a widow remarries, it's not adultery--because the marriage does not exist in the spirit realm.
And this is also why a wife cannot hide behind her husband at the Judgment. She will be held accountable for her own conscience, no matter what her husband asked her to do. Remember Sapphira of Acts 5? She was not excused from her lie, because of the 'spiritual headship' of her husband. God expected her to stand up to Ananias, and refuse to do his bidding!"

God reserves for Himself, the spirit of each person.
And just as humans are joined in marriage, and the wife receives life from her husband, to conceive...
Even so, God wants us to be so intimately in deep fellowship with Himself, on a spirit-plane.
He wants us to pray constantly, as if it were more important to us than breathing, than eating, than drinking water.

When someone falls in love, it changes their appetite, their sleeping patterns, and their entire way of thinking.
God wants this kind of relationship with us.
He wants us to fall in love with Him, and seek His presence and His voice constantly.

When this happens, we change completely.

And when we fall out of love with Him, it's because we have left our first love.
We choose to seek other fulfillment, outside of Christ.
And we get our eyes on the idols of this world. Sports. Money. Success. And earthly romance.
But those things can never fill the spirit.

And for a Christian, it's spiritually cuckolding our heavenly Bridegroom.
So we think He doesn't see?
Do we think He doesn't care?
He cares just as much as any earthly bridegroom would care, to find his betrothed is having an affair on the side!

Those who leave their first love, become lukewarm.
And Jesus says He will spit them out like disgusting water.

Many think they are ready for death, because they "prayed a prayer" once, and "accepted Jesus".
But John says that if we say we have fellowship with Him, and do not walk in the light, we are lying.

So, yeah.
He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.
Like marriage.

PollyJetix said:

What is the soul?
We know it is not the spirit:
Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..."

So, is the soul, as I have heard all my life, the mind, the will, and the emotions?

If so, then the union of the body with another, via sex, is very emotional, and involved the mind, and also the will.
Therefore, it greatly affects the soul.

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It's not that their souls are literally joined together mystically.

DaveW-Ohev said:

LOL!!!

Michael Brown has his points. But that statement flies in the face of Acts 15.

Its kind of surprizing, but he is one of the Messianic teachers affiliated with Tikkun and Beth Messiah that I have never met. I certainly know well many people he knows.

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I met him. Are you surprised-small world?

Superhero Sam said:

I met him. Are you surprised-small world?

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No I am not at all surprised. I find it more surprising that I have not ever met him.

DaveW-Ohev said:

No I am not at all surprised. I find it more surprising that I have not ever met him.

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Why? Your friends know him?

DaveW-Ohev said:

Show me where scripture supports that myth. God's Torah (teaching, law) is a unit and is not to be sub-divided out that way.

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Would you agree Leviticus 18 lists homosexuality and incest as sinful?

Superhero Sam said:

Why? Your friends know him?

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Yes, several of them. In fact my wife met him on a few occasions.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Yes, several of them. In fact my wife met him on a few occasions.

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Three degrees of separation? Noticed that?

Superhero Sam said:

Would you agree Leviticus 18 lists homosexuality and incest as sinful?

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Yes - MALE homosexuality and several instances of incest.
But not female homosexuality; or all of what we might call incest today, like first cousins.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Yes - MALE homosexuality and several instances of incest.
But not female homosexuality; or all of what we might call incest today, like first cousins.

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What does the Bible say about being a lesbian? Does the Bible mention lesbianism?

There’s an implication in Romans 1:26 that lesbianism is even worse than male homosexuality. Notice the phrase “even their women.” The text seems to suggest that it is more common for men to engage in sexual depravity, and when women begin to do it, that is a sign things are getting really bad. Men usually have much stronger sex drives than women, and so are more prone to sexual deviancy. When women commit unnatural sexual acts, then the degree of immorality has truly become shameful. Lesbianism is evidence of people being given over to “the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another” (Romans 1:24).

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That quote from the site has a few things in error.

In Roman and Greek culture (and all of western culture until about 1900) women were assumed to have no sex drive at all. Hippocrates (father of western medicine) wrote that about 400 bc and everyone believed him.

But Paul (and all Jews) knew that was NOT true. I do not see anything "worse" about it. In fact, I have pondered the reason it was NOT forbidden in the OT; and the fact that Paul says it is a sign of man's corruption. It is not specifically forbidden "Thou shalt not ..." here either. He only calls it "degrading" and "unnatural:"

Rom 1.25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

He then goes into a much longer condemnation of male homosexuality.

Remember that the apostle came from an attitude in normal Judaism that taught sex was a wife's RIGHT and a husband's RESPONSIBILITY. IOW, this passage of Rom 1 could be looked at that the women HAD to exchange the natural function because the men were burning for each other instead of them. And as a Jew, he knew that women had the higher sex drive.

DaveW-Ohev said:

That quote from the site has a few things in error.

In Roman and Greek culture (and all of western culture until about 1900) women were assumed to have no sex drive at all. Hippocrates (father of western medicine) wrote that about 400 bc and everyone believed him.

But Paul (and all Jews) knew that was NOT true. I do not see anything "worse" about it. In fact, I have pondered the reason it was NOT forbidden in the OT; and the fact that Paul says it is a sign of man's corruption. It is not specifically forbidden "Thou shalt not ..." here either. He only calls it "degrading" and "unnatural:"

Rom 1.25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

He then goes into a much longer condemnation of male homosexuality.

Remember that the apostle came from an attitude in normal Judaism that taught sex was a wife's RIGHT and a husband's RESPONSIBILITY. IOW, this passage of Rom 1 could be looked at that the women HAD to exchange the natural function because the men were burning for each other instead of them. And as a Jew, he knew that women had the higher sex drive.

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Are you saying female homosexuality isn't a sin? That seems like heresy to me.

Superhero Sam said:

Are you saying female homosexuality isn't a sin? That seems like heresy to me.

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No - I am not saying that.

I am saying that I am not sure on it, whether God allowed in under the Mosaic covenant or not, and WHY it is not listed in the Law. I really do not know on this one.