Anatomy of the Hand

dysert · Mar 23, 2017

Jimmy D said:
Well, you know your bible better than me, but I don't recall anything like what you wrote mentioned in Genesis.

Well, you're right it doesn't say, "the hand devolved into a less perfect state". But consider the world since the Fall. Wars, sickness, death, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, ... The Fall affected everything:

Rom 8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

The Barbarian · Mar 23, 2017

In general, it's not a good idea to add material to the Bible to support ideas that can't otherwise be supported. When one starts adding unscriptural miracles to scripture to support ideas, then anything becomes reasonable.

I've seen people do this:
Creationist:
"Look how well the human body is designed. Obviously, God is a great designer!"

Mainline Christian:
"Um, there are lots of serious flaws in human bodies. How is that great design?"

Creationist:
"Oh, that's because the Fall messed it up."

Mainline Christian:
"So where the human body works great, it's great design, and where it doesn't, it's the Fall that made it bad?"

Creationist:
"Pretty much."

Mainline Christian:
"So that's your explanation of why our bodies appear to be evolved, rather than designed?"

Creationist:
"Yep."

Mainline Christian:
"So why did the fall mess up this perfect design precisely the way it would be if we were created by evolution rather than by design?"

Creationist:
"God works in mysterious ways."

Radrook · Mar 23, 2017

Jimmy D said:
It's got to be one of two...... the fall or the devil?

From the Christian viewpoint they are not mutually exclusive.

The Barbarian · Mar 23, 2017

dysert said:
On what basis do you make this claim? (For example, the *design* may have been flawless, but the Fall resulted in a flawed implementation.)

It's true that a creationist might argue that. But as I discussed, there are some seriously logical difficulties with that idea.

dysert · Mar 23, 2017

The Barbarian said:
It's true that a creationist might argue that. But as I discussed, there are some seriously logical difficulties with that idea.

Instead of following the rabbit trail my parenthetical example started, would you mind answering my question? Thanks.

Radrook · Mar 23, 2017

Jimmy D said:
That article is poor even by their standards.

Level of standard isn't what causes a need to reject and ridicule.

The Barbarian · Mar 23, 2017

dysert said:
Instead of following the rabbit trail my parenthetical example started, would you mind answering my question? Thanks.

Already did. There are too many logical flaws in the idea. For example, there are all sorts of similar flaws in other animals that cause them grief. God being just, it's disrespectful to claim that he punished animals for our transgressions. And of course, there's no scriptural support whatever for the idea that God messed up all living things because we disobeyed Him.

dysert · Mar 24, 2017

The Barbarian said:
Already did. There are too many logical flaws in the idea. For example, there are all sorts of similar flaws in other animals that cause them grief. God being just, it's disrespectful to claim that he punished animals for our transgressions. And of course, there's no scriptural support whatever for the idea that God messed up all living things because we disobeyed Him.

You must have missed the post where I quoted this:

Rom. 8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

And of course there's also Gen. 3:14 -> So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life."

There obviously *is* Scriptural support that all things (and not just living things) became messed up because of the Fall. Your statement, "If God designed it, there wouldn't be any flaws" is not valid.

The Barbarian · Mar 24, 2017

dysert said:
Rom. 8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
And of course there's also Gen. 3:14 -> So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life."

There obviously *is* Scriptural support that all things (and not just living things) became messed up because of the Fall. Your statement, "If God designed it, there wouldn't be any flaws" is not valid.

None of this says what you said. Why is that? BTW, serpents don't eat dust. (and theologically, the serpent is considered to be Satan, not a real snake) Why did the writer in Genesis use a snake? Because in the land of Abraham, the snake was the symbol of wisdom and immortality.

So your view takes us back to an essentially untestable "If it's good, it's God being a great designer, and if it's bad, it's because of the Fall. We don't know why the good and the bad look exactly the way they would look if living things were created by evolution instead of design."

An additional theological problem is the question as to why a just God would subject other animals to pain and suffering just because humans messed up.

No, this is too much to add to scripture without any justification at all.

Radrook · Mar 24, 2017

The Barbarian said:
None of this says what you said. Why is that? BTW, serpents don't eat dust. (and theologically, the serpent is considered to be Satan, not a real snake) Why did the writer in Genesis use a snake? Because in the land of Abraham, the snake was the symbol of wisdom and immortality.

So your view takes us back to an essentially untestable "If it's good, it's God being a great designer, and if it's bad, it's because of the Fall. We don't know why the good and the bad look exactly the way they would look if living things were created by evolution instead of design."

An additional theological problem is the question as to why a just God would subject other animals to pain and suffering just because humans messed up.

No, this is too much to add to scripture without any justification at all.

What exactly is your understanding of the scriptures he provided?

The Barbarian · Mar 24, 2017

Radrook said:
What exactly is your understanding of the scriptures he provided?

Clearly, nothing at all in Genesis says He "designed" humans or other animals. Nothing at all says that human bodies were at one time perfect, or that He messed them up after the fall. Nor does any of it say that He messed up other animals as a consequence of our disobedience.

Those are just facts. To get back to the OP, there's no reason, either scriptural or scientific, to suppose at one time the median nerve was routed safely through the wrist, after which it was suddenly repositioned in the carpal tunnel, becoming vulerable to entrapment and disability.

In fact, all the evidence suggests that it was always as it is now.

Radrook · Mar 25, 2017

The Barbarian said:
Clearly, nothing at all in Genesis says He "designed" humans or other animals. Nothing at all says that human bodies were at one time perfect, or that He messed them up after the fall. Nor does any of it say that He messed up other animals as a consequence of our disobedience.

Those are just facts. To get back to the OP, there's no reason, either scriptural or scientific, to suppose at one time the median nerve was routed safely through the wrist, after which it was suddenly repositioned in the carpal tunnel, becoming vulerable to entrapment and disability.

In fact, all the evidence suggests that it was always as it is now.

I was expecting you to provide a detailed alternate explanation for the scriptures that he offered as biblical evidence. Instead all you are doing is denying his understanding.

The Barbarian · Mar 25, 2017

Radrook said:
I was expecting you to provide a detailed alternate explanation for the scriptures that he offered as biblical evidence. Instead all you are doing is denying his understanding.

For most Christians "it's not in the text" is sufficient reason not to regard it as God's word. Why He didn't do it that way is not really at issue.

Radrook · Mar 25, 2017

The Barbarian said:
For most Christians "it's not in the text" is sufficient reason not to regard it as God's word. Why He didn't do it that way is not really at issue.

But why not explain why the texts he offers don't mean what he says they mean? Otherwise, if no counter-explanation is offered, then they appear to mean exactly what he claims they mean. I personally can't see why they can't be understated the way he describes. What is it exactly in those texts that convinces you that they cannot be understood that way?

The Barbarian · Mar 25, 2017

Radrook said:
But why not explain why the texts he offers don't mean what he says they mean?

That is your task. I'm just pointing out that they don't say what you say they mean.

None of those beliefs are in the text. Why then add them?

Radrook · Mar 25, 2017

The Barbarian said:
That is your task. I'm just pointing out that they don't say what you say they mean.

None of those beliefs are in the text. Why then add them?

That is just the point! They say that God subjected creation to futility. Scriptures also mention a restoration of things to a previous state of equilibrium such as no more predation or predator prey system that now exists. Scriptures mention death not as a natural phenomenon but as an aberration to be removed. Scriptures promise a new heavens and new Earth. If things are as they were always meant to be-then how do you explain those verses? One even describes creation as being in a state of decay!

Isaiah 65:17
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Isaiah 66:22
"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure.

Romans 8:21
that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

2 Peter 3:13
But in keeping with God's promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells

The Barbarian · Mar 25, 2017

Radrook said:
That is just the point! They say that God subjected creation to futility.

But it doesn't say that humans and other animals were perfect and then became "badly designed" only after the fall, and only in ways that look exactly as if they happened by evolution.

Scriptures also mention a restoration of things to a previous state of equilibrium such as no more predation or predator prey system that now exists.

The lion laying down with the lamb? How does that say that humans and animals were perfect and then became "badly designed" only after the fall, and only in ways that look exactly as if they happened by evolution?

Scriptures mention death not as a natural phenomenon but as an aberration to be removed.

The death spoken of in Genesis is not a physical death. God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree, and yet Adam lived on physically for many years after. Moreover, God created Adam to be mortal, as he acknowledges in Genesis:

Gen. 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

There's just no way to reconfigure the Bible to say what you want it to say.

Radrook · Mar 25, 2017

The Barbarian said:
But it doesn't say that humans and other animals were perfect and then became "badly designed" only after the fall, and only in ways that look exactly as if they happened by evolution.

The lion laying down with the lamb? How does that say that humans and animals were perfect and then became "badly designed" only after the fall, and only in ways that look exactly as if they happened by evolution?

The death spoken of in Genesis is not a physical death. God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree, and yet Adam lived on physically for many years after. Moreover, God created Adam to be mortal, as he acknowledges in Genesis:

Gen. 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

There's just no way to reconfigure the Bible to say what you want it to say.

Please note that I never claimed that animals were originally created to live forever.
So their perfection is not the equivalent of human perfection which involved eternal life if they remained obedient.

What we can definitely infer from the scriptures concerning animals is that they were original created to be under subjection to mankind and that they would all be herbivores.

Gen 1:
God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

So predation with all its chasing and bloody violent encounters came later and is not part of the natural scheme as biblically described. So the restoration of peace among the animals as is illustrated by lamb and lion being together is a restoration of the perfection of the original system which was temporarily discontinued as a consequence of the Fall. There is absolutely NOTHING that I have said which is unjustified.

You claim that death is a natural thing. But then again that goes completely contrary to how death is described biblically. For example, it is described as an enemy!

1 Corinthians 15:26 NIV
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

If it were natural as you claim, it would not be removed!

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away."

In fact, the emergence of death is traced to Adam's disobedience:

Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

As for dying in that same day, he definitely did since one day to God is as a thousand years and Adam was not allowed to not reach that age.

2 Peter 3:8 NIV
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.

Adam fell short of one of God's days by 70 years.

Genesis 5:5 NIV
Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

So being created originally to die goes completely contrary to all those scriptures.

Do you really believe that if Adam would have gotten past God and eaten of the Tree of Life God would have been FORCED to concede him eternal life? Or that the Tree of Good and Evil actually possessed some magical quality? These things were symbols of certain consequences of behavior that would inevitably ensue depending on how Adam comported himself.

So I guess we simply disagree.

Radrook · Mar 26, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Read the Mayo Clinic link, post #42. Very few carpal tunnel problems stem from computer use. The article reveals a laundry list of the ways we abuse our bodies which can lead to CTS.

It's like trying to use a car as a tractor and then claiming that it was defective because it broke down under the mechanical stress.

The Barbarian · Mar 26, 2017

Radrook said:
Please note that I never claimed that animals were originally created to live forever.
So their perfection is not the equivalent of human perfection which involved eternal life if they remained obedient.

So God created them with flaws that would cause them pain and suffering just because...?

What we can definitely infer from the scriptures concerning animals is that they were original created to be under subjection to mankind and that they would all be herbivores.

That assumption doesn't seem to be supported anywhere in scripture.

So predation with all its chasing and bloody violent encounters came later

So spiders originally ate...? And why did our disobedience cause a complete rearrangement of spider bodies, DNA, and behavior? That doesn't seem to fit scripture at all.

You claim that death is a natural thing.

God expresses concern that Adam might become immortal. So there's no question that we were created mortal.

If it were natural as you claim, it would not be removed!

If you're right, then Christ's death and resurrection didn't save us. If He came to save us from a physical death, He failed. But as you must surely see, the death God spoke of in the Garden was not a physical one.

In fact, the emergence of death is traced to Adam's disobedience:

A spiritual death that affected all of us. Not a physical death. God says that Adam will die the day he eats from the tree, and yet he lives on for many, many days after. If God is truthful, then the death is not a physical one.

As for dying in that same day, he definitely did

No, that's wrong. He lived on for many days thereafter.

So being created originally to die goes completely contrary to all those scriptures.

God simply and effectively removes any possibility of humans being created immortal, when he expresses concern that humans might become so.

Do you really believe that if Adam would have gotten past God and eaten of the Tree of Life God would have been FORCED to concede him eternal life?

Let's see what God says...

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Yep. That's what God says. So taken as a literal history, one must conclude that Adam was created mortal, and God took steps to stop him from becoming so, because if he did, he would live forever.

Assuming one trusts God to be always truthful.

Or that the Tree of Good and Evil actually possessed some magical quality?

This is an allegory. Of course it's symbolic. Remember allegories can be about real people and real events.

Anatomy of the Hand

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