Unknown tongue is not a spiritual gift according to Paul

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
We aren't discussing tongues on this instance sir

I should have been clear
When you said a third agency is not needed I tried to remind you that GOD uses "mouths" for preaching by HIS SPIRIT the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL...that it isn't "us"( those who believe who are born of HIS SPIRIT) who makes the plea to be reconciled to HIS SON. It is GOD

And that when one speaks the things of GOD it isn't because they somehow have a superior "s"pirit... They don't

For just as Paul noted no one can know the things of GOD that are known only by HIS SPIRIT. That it is HIS SPIRIT that seeks and it is HIS SPIRIT that reveals. For who can know the mind of GOD?
Then what is preached in DECIPHERABLE languages is preached because GOD has given HIS tools the means to put into words what would have been kept hidden if GOD did not reveal it by the only means that we as humans can communicate

DECIPHERABLE WORDS of spiritual truths

We were not discussing tongues right now

We were discussing your comment that GOD doesn't use mouthpieces

In which case I remind you of Aaron's relationship to Moses and John's cry quoting a voice crying in the darkness

That is still going on

All Ok, but both Aaron and John did not use an unknown tongue claiming it was promted by the Holy Spirit.

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
You are questioning the WORD of GOD and HIS SERVANT

Canon is man-made. Paul was not God to claim that it was God's word. He was a servant, disciple and saint.

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
He didn't. His desire was that His own people would hear and believe

They didn't

That does not cancels the responsibility.

And he was given insight by GOD's SPIRIT into that as well which is why he said what he said in romans 10 and 11

It is wrong to quote his own claims.

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
Sorry. The WORD of GOD is true and truth. His written word does not and will not contradict his voice/spirit

If it does
It isn't something wrong with GOD's WORD/VOICE/SPIRIT

It's something wrong with the interpreter's word/voice/"s"pirit

Which is God's word, which text, manuscript, version and canon?

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
His methods are not questionable. They were tender methods he employed because (whether you wish to claim the opposite) he loved those as his children and he gently and lovingly led all these children to the truth and he stayed with them

'Please all' methods won't guarantee truth. He wrote letters after leaving them.

He didn't preach the GOSPEL in a detached, diluted way sir

He did very little teaching of Gospel. So where is the question of diluting it? It is the question of deviation.

He got right in there and stayed with them ( just like he should have) teaching them about CHRIST sir

He didn't stay with them to make them followers of himself He stayed that they would be grounded in the faith which is IN CHRIST

Again, he wrote letters after leaving them. He eclipsed Jesus by asking them to imitate him rather than Jesus directly.

Which by the way is his leading point leading up to his correction of the church in Corinth

Correction was not according to the words of Jesus.

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
By the way, please remind us of the directive of JESUS

Acts 9
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
His dose of advice

Or GOD used HIS tool (just like HE used His tool Jonah) to help the Corinthians who did not know their left from their right?

So he showed front and back of his views.

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

Hillsage said:
Your 'opinion' is duly noted;

1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

I think you have chopped off my statement. Yes our spirit prays, and it is nothing to do with the Holy Spirit prompting on that.

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
I used to question Ezra's advice. I thought maybe Ezra was acting in ignorance and HAD made his own decision

But now I understand why it was necessary that Ezra send away those who were of the priestly bloodline to put away their wives and their children before having a part in the building of "THE TEMPLE"
(And I understand that GOD knowing our limited humanity laid down prophetic words which are in service to us)

Ezra wasnt wrong
GOD's WORD wasnt treated incorrectly
GOD's WORD isn't wrong

It was that what was truly the hidden spiritual truth behind these things was kept hidden from me

Now it is no longer kept from me and I understand

GOD's WORD is NOT in error

Jesus' words are of paramount importance. All should be compared to that to understand spiritual aspects of the NT

Righttruth · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
What you wanted to accomplish from this thread is the understanding that speaking in tongues when there is no one who can interpret should not be done

No, such unknown tongue is not prompted by the Holy Spirit as people claim.

And if one is interpreting the tongues and is adding to THE TRUTH of what GOD has already given us by HIS WORD, he is a liar and a false "prophet"

Speaking in unknown tongue and interpretation are not related to prophecy.

For nothing needs to be added. God has not overlooked anything in the story of our salvation in, by and through JESUS CHRIST

Jesus has words of eternal life. Nothing should contradict them.

Those who come together to glorify
Supposed gifts rather than glorifying CHRIST will be made manifest if a TRUE BELIEVER comes in and witnesses what is happening within these "churches"

Each should truly judge their hidden (though not hidden from GOD) agenda

They are exalting themselves and finding out who can shout more, can do more body twisting, cry like different animals, rolling over floor, etc.

swordsman1 · Feb 7, 2017

Deadworm said:
Mountain-moving faith refers to the simple fact that true faith can accomplish more than you expect. No unreal conditions are implied.

It seems you don't understand the terminology that Paul is using here. Paul is not giving us a definition of the gift of faith, he is giving us an exceptional example of it. He says "if I have all faith, so as [ὥστε] to remove mountains," or as the NKVJ better puts it "so that I could remove mountains".

The word ὥστε here means 'to such an extent'. The following examples of the word will help you to understand its meaning:

Matthew 8:24 And behold, there arose a great storm on the sea, so that [ὥστε] the boat was being covered with the waves;

Mark 1:45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely and to spread the news around, to such an extent [ὥστε] that Jesus could no longer publicly enter a city

Mark 3:20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent [ὥστε] that they could not even eat a meal.

Mark 4:32 yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches so that [ὥστε] the birds of the air can nest under its shade.

Luke 5:7 And they came and filled both of the boats, so that [ὥστε] they began to sink.

Luke 12:1 a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that [ὥστε] they were trampling on one another,

Acts 5:15 to such an extent [ὥστε] that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets,

Acts 16:26 suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that [ὥστε] the foundations of the prison house were shaken;

Acts 19:12 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that [ὥστε] even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

Acts 19:16 He gave them such a beating that [ὥστε] they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

2 Corinthians 1:8 we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that [ὥστε] we despaired even of life;

Believers in the Testament of Job would believe in the possibility of humans speaking in angelic tongues, even if this is not for them

Why would they believe the Testament of Job? You do realise that this book is not inspired scripture don't you? It is a non-canonical fairy tale. It may not have even been written when Paul wrote his epistle. Even if some of it's readers were gullible enough to believe it was a true story and someone really did speak in the language of angels, that doesn't make "the tongues of angels" in 1 Cor 13:1 any more real - only that some of it's readers might have thought it was real.

You have continually ducked my case (1) that the outpouring in Acts 2 was a form of prophecy in fulfillment of Joel 2:28, (2) that the gift of prophecy is clearly distinguished from glossolalia in Paul and elsewhere in Acts,

That is because your rather contrived theory about tongues being prophecy in Acts 2 is irrelevant.

(3) that nowhere (apart from Acts 2) does Paul or Luke identify the glossolalia they describe as human language or imply that it could be understood by anyone apart from the gift of interpretation.

That's not true. There is only one definitive description of the gift of tongues in scripture. If tongues was a different phenomenon elsewhere then we would have been provided with a re-definition. Yet nowhere is it redefined as a non-human, heavenly language, or anything else. In the absence of such a redefinition, the principles of hermeneutics demand that all other instances of the gift must be presumed to be the same thing.

Luke uses the exact same unique terminology for tongues (glossa and laleo) in Acts as Paul does in 1 Corinthians. Luke was a close companion of Paul's and wrote Acts under his authority. If Luke knew it was a different phenomenon he would never have used the exact same terminology that Paul uses.

In addition there is plenty of evidence to confirm that other instances of tongues are foreign human languages:

In Acts 11:15,17 Peter reports to the Jerusalem council that the Gentiles at Cornelius household experienced the same phenomenon as they experienced at Pentecost. As a result the hated Gentiles were accepted into the church. If it was anything different they would never have been accepted.

The word tongues (languages) is often in the plural form indicating that multiple languages were spoken in Corinth. That mean it cannot be the language of heaven (unless there was a Tower of Babel event in heaven).

Paul quotes Isaiah's prophecy in 1 Cor 14:21-22 which refers to foreign languages spoken among the Jews as being a sign of judgement against them. Paul then identifies Corinthian tongues as being the same.

Paul said he spoke in the tongues of men in 1 Cor 13:1. In the context of spiritual gifts that can only be the gift of tongues.

1800 years of church history have always affirmed tongues to be human languages. The idea of it being a heavenly language was only something hatched up by Pentecostals in the twentieth century after they discovered the natural phenomenon that linguists call glossolalia.

1 Corinthians 14:28: "But if there is no one to interpret, let him speak for himself (Greek: "heauto") and to God."
I quote Hans Conzelman's magisterial commentary on 1 Corinthians: "The rule that he should speak in tongues at home (heauto) is in harmony with vs. 2."

I see you have misquoted Conzelman to make it appear that heauto also means 'at home'.

heauto never means 'at home'. It always means 'himself'. Nowhere in scripture does it say tongues should be practiced at home in private. The exact opposite in fact - doing so would be a misuse of a spiritual gift.

1 Peter 4:10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others

1 Corinthians 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

But interpreted tongues in church represent God's address to the people in a message that must be obeyed (14:21-22). In that sense, interpreted glossolalia is "a sign for unbelievers" in a way that private praise and thanksgiving in tongues is not.

You seem to be very confused about this passage. “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people" is not the gift of tongues. Paul is quoting Isaiah's prophecy which is referring to the foreign armies invading Israel and speaking their own foreign language among the Jews. Foreigners speaking their foreign languages among the Jews were always seen as a sign of divine judgement against them (see also Deut 28:49, Jer 5:15). Which is why Paul tells the Corinthians not to speak their foreign language tongues untranslated in the church, otherwise visitors will be repelled.

Paul teaches that we must actively strive for spiritual gifts like glossolalia and prophecy in order to receive them.

No he doesn't. Paul says the Corinthian church should desire the greater gifts (such as prophecy), not the least of the gift (tongues).

So now you're grieving the Holy Spirit by implying that He is incapable of bestowing the true gift on you, even if you diligently strive to receive it?

Modern glossolalia is not the true gift of tongues. It is proven to be a natural psychological phenomenon that anyone can acquire, Christian or not. The true New Testament gift is miraculously speaking foreign languages.

Trust me when I assure you that Fee believes modern glossolalia should normally treated as a genuine charism inspired by the Holy Spirit.

But Fee doesn't think modern glossolalia is NT tongues. He thinks it is something akin to it. Therefore any attempts to try and justify it as NT tongues from scripture are futile - it is an extra-biblical activity.

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

Righttruth said:
I am in full agreement of Catholics belief on prophecy. I think that private prophets, who brayed for fulfilment of prophecy, led to the unauthorized formation of political Zionist Israel that revived the international terrorism that has affected all of us since then.

I have no idea what you are saying. You have said this twice about Zionist Israel

Dont you understand what Zion to Israel is?
And don't you understand the whole point of Paul's message regarding unbelieving Israel (which is in effect even now) was meant to convey?

That they remain in disbelief until GOD opens their eyes

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

Righttruth said:
No, such unknown tongue is not prompted by the Holy Spirit as people claim.

Speaking in unknown tongue and interpretation are not related to prophecy.

Jesus has words of eternal life. Nothing should contradict them.

They are exalting themselves and finding out who can shout more, can do more body twisting, cry like different animals, rolling over floor, etc.

But that wasn't the initial point of your initial (not thoroughly thought out) thread was it?

Your initial point was to somehow portray Paul as one who progressed above HIS LORD and offered his own opinions to a believing body to somehow...exalt himself

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

Just to be clear tongues have NOTHING to do with what is going on here

Which is casting a shadow on GOD's INERRANT WORD and authority
and implying that Paul went above both HIS WORD and AUTHORITY

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

Righttruth said:
All Ok, but both Aaron and John did not use an unknown tongue claiming it was promted by the Holy Spirit.

Were going around in circles

Again your comment that GID doesn't use agents to speak HIS INTELLIGIBLE TRUTH is incorrect

Vagueness and clarification when baby ears are listening in here and trying to get their head around the confusion that is gung on here is not doing GOD's WORK

UNINTELLIGIBLE TONGUES , if there is no "agent" to interpret what is being said is useless utterances. That's what Paul was trying to get across to the church in Corinth

INTELLIGIBLE Speech, by those whom GOD uses as HIS "mouthpiece" by HIS SPIRIT do that men may come to the knowledge and truth of THE GOSPEL, making HIS PLAN of salvation known is not useless

Even if the "tom" in the far corners of the earth understands and cones to salvation

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

Another thing. The fighting in Israel is between two unbelieving in the dark peoples

If they believed and understood. They would have come to the revelation that the fighting for the temporal inheritance in the land l"Israel" was NOT THE PROMISE GOD was pointing to from the beginning

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

Righttruth said:
Acts 9
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

And?

You complain about Paul offering "his views" to only the Gentiles and now you use this for what?

Paul presented the gospel to any and all who would listen anddid not restrict THE MESSAGE

But you do leave out an important TRUTH regarding the call to anyone who is called to preach THE GOSPEL

It is a testimony for or against those to whom THE GOSPEL is preached to

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

Righttruth said:
Jesus' words are of paramount importance. All should be compared to that to understand spiritual aspects of the NT

Jesus SPIRIT does not contradict Jesus SPIRIT

Men's spirits may contradict HIS SPIRIT due to their lack of or limited understanding

I told you I thought Ezra was contradicting GOD's SPIRIT when he divided households

I was really bothered by it

BUT THERE IS A REASON
(And a very big one) that GOD made sure Ezra's command to put away your wives and children was written down and preserved

miknik5 · Feb 7, 2017

It has to do with the rebuilding of The third temple and the quandary that a supposed "priest" according to the OT laws will be in

And don't assume that you know what I am saying. And don't speak for me. And don't suggest what I am saying

Because I also am concerned that you will go off thinking you "figured out" what I said and meant and "instruct" people incorrectly and exactly the opposite of what GOD has forewarned by HIS WORD that they should do

Hillsage · Feb 7, 2017

miknik5 said:
Or we can remind of romans 8:26-27 (I believe).
With regards that we don't know how to pray but the SPIRIT who knows the heart intercedes for us

The heart and the mind IS the hidden spirit of a man

Your reminder falls on spiritual eyes seering a higher truth than you know of. What do you know about the beginnings of 'Reverential capitalization'? Nothing, based upon your use of this verse. Well let's read it in a translation using better scholarship and then I'll just add some plain old common sense.

CLT Rom 8:26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings. 27 Now He Who is searching the hearts is aware what is the disposition of the spirit, for in accord with God is IT pleading for the saints.

Notice that "God" is capitalized and "spirit" is not. :idea:

Why would the Holy Spirit who IS God need to pray TO God? :doh:

I've heard plenty of immature English prayers, which 'even I' knew weren't "in accord with God". If only they'd believe and receive, they too could have been praying in tongues from their "spirit" because IT does know 'God's will for your life' because your INCHRISTED born again spirit is 'joined to the LORD as ONE spirit' and your ENGLISH speaking soul minded prayer isn't. So just un tongue-tie IT, and let IT pray like verse 27 above confirms IT will...."in accord with God".

Now, to answer the common sense question; Why would translators ever 'add' a capitalized spirit in this verse? Because all of them...like most here...were not Charismatic and they therefore never experienced, let alone could they understand, the things just shared with you...to even know what spirit was being talked about.

Unknown tongue is not a spiritual gift according to Paul

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Similar threads