Do any people here believe in Preterism

MostRadicalManEver · Feb 2, 2017

I am not going to say i "believe' preterism. But it does have some really compelling arguments if you exalt the text above your experience. Considering the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 and the nature of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15... also, if you look at the infallibility of scripture argument, they definitely said they were in the last days... This got so confusing to me, that i simply gave up on eschatology and started worrying about the Great Commission instead.

geiroffenberg · Feb 2, 2017

antletems said:
Any of you believe in Preterism? I ask as i have been watching Mr Don Preston on youtube and i am amazed that a lot of what he says actually makes a lot of sense indeed!

Don't know don preston, but i guess i'm a preterist or at least very close. The critiscism against traditional preterism is often very shallow and only makes sense to certain confined escatologies.

geiroffenberg · Feb 2, 2017

Douggg said:
It's is a mute point because the Mount of Olives is not split.

You are waiting for the mount of olives to spplit?
There are many problems with that view. First you insist that its not a metaphorical prophecy, unlike most of the prophecies, which is unlikely.

Also, the passage includes many prophecies that must be interpreted as fulfilled according to the gospel, therby pointing to the time of the gospel.

It says his feet will stand on mount of olives, well it did.
It says living waters will spread out from jerusalem after this special day of the lord prophecied, well it did, and it has. The living water is OF COURSE not literal water, but the water of life as poured out to all nations trough the gospel.

It says that form that day, the Lord will be king over the eart, well the gospel literally states that the Lord was given all autority in heaven and earth and is called the king over the kings on earth, so this definitly is a truth since the day of Jesus on earth. In fact to state otherwise, to stil be waiting for the Lord to become king over earth is to deny the very simple anc clear gospel statement, that the king and his kingdom has come, is at hand and is not going away. And much more like this.

In other words, the problem lies in the way you read the bible, like a literal description of carnal happenins, sun stopping its shine, mountains splitting, living waters going from jerusalem to the rest of the earth.. These things has prophetic symbolic meaning and to read it otherwise creates insane escatology. Many places in the bible prophecies like this also has its fulfilment, so we can know how prophetic language and its symbolism works. The lord would come in a cloud over egypt, and its fulfilment was NOT that a ltieral cloud came over egypt but a judgement came and an army concuered it. That was the biblicak fulfilment. The sun and moon and stars bowed down to joseph, well it wasnt meant ti literally happened, all those who heard the dream immidiatly udnerstodd that the sun and moon was symbolic of the autoroties of jospeh, aka his mother and father. There was no LITERALT 7 headed beast trampling the earth, it was the roman empire! So as we know how prophetic language works, we should follow the biblical trend for this and read prophecy like the bible itself reads it.

geiroffenberg · Feb 2, 2017

antletems said:
Yes, i agree but partial preterism is different

There is also another thing to remember when it comes to propnets and critics of preterism. Most of the dont take into account the eternal nature of the gospel.

While most think time related in everything, and so futurism vs preterism is the only two "options". LIke the final resurection, will it happen in the future or has it happened. Its obvious to the futurist that it hasnt happened, so preterism is laughable.

But when martha and mary talked with jesus about resurection, and they said lazarus would be resurected in the future, jesus said "i am the resurection" and he was resurected there and then. So, this brigns us to the eternal gospel, the promses is not fulfilled either in the future or in the past, all the prmoses has its yes and amen in christ, and he is the lamb that was slain before the world began. And that takes us out of the whole debate, both are wrong, and both are right, but in fact only the doctrine "in christ" ends up beign totally true.

Goatee · Feb 2, 2017

I agree.

Myself, i have often thought that the Bible, in many places, cannot be taken 'literally'. I have had that thought for a very long time and now, after stumbling upon preterism i have answers unfolding in front of my eyes!

I am still Catholic and i believe i am still able to sway to preterism too.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

All Christians are preterist.
We only vary by degree.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Not really. Did you notice the phrase " all the nations against Jerusalem" which you also bolded? Rome was just one nation, not "all" by any means.

And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. (Acts 2:5)

Is it your contention that there were indeed Jews from EVERY NATION on planet earth in Jerusalem at Pentecost? From Japan, Australia, Russia, the Americas?

So 70ad does not work.

The Romans lead a mulit-national coalition against Israel in 66. Assyria alone sent 5000 troops to aid in the siege. It wasn't that difficult to get surrounding nations to agree to join the fight, as the Jews weren't very liked.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

antletems said:
I am still Catholic and i believe i am still able to sway to preterism too.

Preterism is the overwhelming majority Catholic position on Eschatology.

I would recommend the series "The End" By Dr Scott Hahn.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Every Eye has NOT seen His return

When do you suppose every Eye Saw God's Arm as Isaiah describes they did here:
Isaiah 52:10
The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;

Certainly such a monumental event as the actual physical ARM of God being made visible to every eye of every one on all of the earth must have been recorded in History somehwere right?

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
The mount of Olives is still intact.

Zech 14.4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Classic Apocalyptic language.
Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signaled by the prophets with common apocalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

*Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Samuel 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ezekiel 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

--COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

--TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

--AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.

Guide To The Bible · Feb 2, 2017

Full Preterism is straight from the Devil.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Luke's Gospel contains the simplest timeline.

The following comes straight from the NKJV.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　
Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

How does that square with the Synoptic accounts?

COMPARE THIS:
Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

TO THIS:
Matthew 24:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice in these two accounts of the SAME discourse by Jesus, it's is the Same When, the Same Then, the Same Desolation, the Same time to Flee, The Same "those days of woe to the pregnant and nursing, and the same great Distress & Tribulation.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Full Preterism is straight from the Devil.

Thanks for your wise, thoughtful and detailed input.

Since no one here holds or is promoting full preteristm, (as per forum rules) it seems your objection to it is misplaced in this thread.

There is a section of CF devoted to the discussion of controversial doctrines where full preterists are allowed to promote their view. I'm sure you can find some there to vilify, but here you are simply arguing against a position no one holds or is espousing.

Guide To The Bible · Feb 2, 2017

parousia70 said:
Thanks for your wise, thoughtful and detailed input.

Since no one here is promoting full preteristm, it seems your objection to it is misplaced in this thread.

There is a section of CF devoted to the discussion of controversial doctrines where full preterists are allowed to promote their view. I'm sure you can find some there to vilify, but here you are simply arguing against a position no one holds or is espousing.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

geiroffenberg said:
Also, the passage includes many prophecies that must be interpreted as fulfilled according to the gospel, therby pointing to the time of the gospel.

It says his feet will stand on mount of olives, well it did.
It says living waters will spread out from jerusalem after this special day of the lord prophecied, well it did, and it has. The living water is OF COURSE not literal water, but the water of life as poured out to all nations trough the gospel.

Excellent observation.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Heres the problem, well one of many anyway, Living waters are fulfilled NOW in Christ:

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

John 7:37-38 On the last day of the festival, the great day, while Jesus was standing there, he cried out, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me, {38} and let the one who believes in me drink. As the scripture has said, 'Out of the believer's heart shall flow rivers of living water.'"

One needs to answer as to why this passage combines these elements if they are thousands of years apart. Beyond that, why does it use such a strange time reference as if it was all supposed to happen around the same time-"In that Day"?

I don't know how with a clear conscience one can say that Zechariah just suddenly interjected verse 8 by jumping 2000 years back, and then in verse 9 jump ahead again 2000 years, especially with the phrase "in that day."

So which is it? Is Christ the Living Waters now? or Is this an unfulfilled prophecy. Well, one could say it will be fulfilled literally one day. If this is so, what Scripture proves this? In other words, if that is so, then to what fulfillment is Zechariah referring? The spiritual or the physical? If we say physical and it refers to the future, then what Scripture do we use to support it being fulfilled spiritually by Christ? We can keep trying to find ways to justify and make for two fulfillments, but the Bible does not do that. There were a ton of other passages that do the same thing, and that if we tried to impose double fulfillment on the rest of those passages, we would be creating a maze that would be unconquerable and meaningless.... Do we await a 2nd virgin birth, a 2nd crucifixion?

It says that form that day, the Lord will be king over the eart, well the gospel literally states that the Lord was given all autority in heaven and earth and is called the king over the kings on earth, so this definitly is a truth since the day of Jesus on earth. In fact to state otherwise, to stil be waiting for the Lord to become king over earth is to deny the very simple anc clear gospel statement, that the king and his kingdom has come, is at hand and is not going away. And much more like this.

QFT

Dave-W · Feb 2, 2017

parousia70 said:
Is it your contention that there were indeed Jews from EVERY NATION on planet earth in Jerusalem at Pentecost? From Japan, Australia, Russia, the Americas?

Every nation that had a Jewish population - yes. If Texas had any Jews - they were there.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Every nation that had a Jewish population - yes. If Texas had any Jews - they were there.

Do you agree with Paul that by the Mid 60's AD, the Gospel had already been preached to all the world, all nations and every creature under heaven?:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

Dave-W · Feb 2, 2017

Paul wrote of what he knew. He did not have a clue that his letters were to become part of the canon of sacred text. All the world he knew of had the gospel.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Paul wrote of what he knew. He did not have a clue that his letters were to become part of the canon of sacred text. All the world he knew of had the gospel.

So Paul was not inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the truth?

And didn't Zechariah also write only what he knew? Zechariah meant All Nations he knew, right?

Regardless, Paul meant the same "world" Jesus meant in Matthew 24:14

And what abut Isaiah?
When did every eye see Gods Arm as Isaiah says they did?

Your purported wooden literalism seems to be faltering in the path of your own spiritualization.

parousia70 · Feb 2, 2017

antletems said:
I only found out about Preterism this morning so lots to look at and digest.

I came to accept the truth of past fulfillment about 1999-2000... sorta came to it on my own from Bible study before I knew the view had a name lol...plus the whole Y2K fiasco was a bit of the straw that broke the camels back for me.... I stopped listening to the Chicken Little's and Boy's crying wolf after that non event.... from my earliest days as a Christian in the late 70's early 80's, every Christian I knew and respected was telling me flat out that Jesus was coming "soon", even 10 years or less.... and with each passing decade they kept moving the goalposts... when I discovered that Jesus and the apostles also (infallibly) claimed He was coming "soon" 2000 years ago, i decided they must be the correct ones, and the later fallible folks must be wrong, as evidenced by their continued failed predictions.

I've spent the last 18 + years trying to disprove it but so far haven't been able to.

Do any people here believe in Preterism

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