Jehovahs Witnesses on the Resurrection of Christ: "Jesus rose as a spirit body not a physical body"

yogosans14 said:

The Watchtower organization says that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the same body he died in (You Can Live Forever on Paradise Earth, pp. 143-44). Instead, it says that He rose as a spirit creature and that the material body of Jesus was taken away by God the Father.

The official website of Jehovahs Witnesses on Christ Resurrection:

The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”—1 Peter 3:18; Acts 13:34; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 5:16.

Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body. He said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind. (John 6:51; Matthew 20:28) If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice. This could not have happened, though, for the Bible says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “once for all time.”—Hebrews 9:11, 12.

If Jesus was raised up with a spirit body, how could his disciples see him?

• Spirit creatures can take on human form. For example, angels who did this in the past even ate and drank with humans. (Genesis 18:1-8; 19:1-3) However, they still were spirit creatures and could leave the physical realm.—Judges 13:15-21.
  
  
• After his resurrection, Jesus also assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done. As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly. (Luke 24:31; John 20:19, 26) The fleshly bodies that he materialized were not identical from one appearance to the next. Thus, even Jesus’ close friends recognized him only by what he said or did.—Luke 24:30, 31, 35; John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7.
  
  
• When Jesus appeared to the apostle Thomas, he took on a body with wound marks. He did this to bolster Thomas’ faith, since Thomas doubted that Jesus had been raised up.—John 20:24-29.

• 
  Your thoughts?

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God made angels spirits. He made humans a body and a spirit combined. When we was done He said that was Very Good. He did not say I wish I had done better with humans.
The nature we are born with is the way He meant us to be. The only reason we die and our spirit has to depart is because of sin. When our spirit and new body rise again together like He did, all the dead will rise with a new physical body, flesh. Different than the body we have now yes, but flesh none the less because that is the way He made us.

I Cor. 15:44 settles it as far as I can tell.

Ken Behrens said:

I Cor. 15:44 settles it as far as I can tell.

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That is correct and I agree with Ken. At death our souls are no longer with a physical body. In such a state the person still exists after death, but they are no longer a whole/complete human because they lack a body.
When Jesus returns He will raise physically all the dead. They will get back the body they lost at death, but it will be changed like body of Jesus was changed.
That physical change often called a glorified body (1 Co 15 "spiritual body"), freed from pain and suffering. With such glorified bodies we would be able to do many of the remarkable things recorded that He did after Resurrection.
So Ken Behrens is correct regarding 1 Co 15 because it is the Saint's lengthy response to the question of what sort of body will those raised from the dead have. The answer was NOT "no body at all".

yogosans14 said:

Your thoughts?

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Luke chapter 24 deals with this. Jesus resolved this when He ate broiled fish and a honeycomb that they gave Him to eat.

joshua 1 9 said:

Luke chapter 24 deals with this. Jesus resolved this when He ate broiled fish and a honeycomb that they gave Him to eat.

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Indeed. Also think it makes no sense to speak of humans being created a body joined with a spirit, then imagine a resurrection of a "spirit body" joined with a "spirit". Unless that is that by "spirit body" one means the same thing as "glorified body" which is to say we will have a physical body of flesh, just as the Resurrected Body of Christ is a physical body (meaning flesh).
Having a body is one thing distinguishing us from angels, having a spirit that is an immortal soul distinguishes from other animals.

DrBubbaLove said:

That is correct and I agree with Ken. At death our souls are no longer with a physical body. In such a state the person still exists after death, but they are no longer a whole/complete human because they lack a body.
When Jesus returns He will raise physically all the dead. They will get back the body they lost at death, but it will be changed like body of Jesus was changed.

Acts of the Apostles "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."​

That physical change often called a glorified body (1 Co 15 "spiritual body"), freed from pain and suffering. With such glorified bodies we would be able to do many of the remarkable things recorded that He did after Resurrection.
So Ken Behrens is correct regarding 1 Co 15 because it is the Saint's lengthy response to the question of what sort of body will those raised from the dead have. The answer was NOT "no body at all".

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John Wesley has a sermon on this that the Methodist Church has on line. What if you are thrown into the ocean and eaten by a fish and someone catches that fish and eats the fish. His answer was the essence of what makes us human is dedicated and can not be used by any other life. Only they can use the extra energy that we have stored in us. If we are cremated and the ashes thrown to the wind, God has a way to bring us back together again. IT is possible to store all of our memory on the atoms of what does not perish in the fire when people are cremated.

joshua 1 9 said:

John Wesley has a sermon on this that the Methodist Church has on line. What if you are thrown into the ocean and eaten by a fish and someone catches that fish and eats the fish. His answer was the essence of what makes us human is dedicated and can not be used by any other life. Only they can use the extra energy that we have stored in us. If we are cremated and the ashes thrown to the wind, God has a way to bring us back together again. IT is possible to store all of our memory on the atoms of what does not perish in the fire when people are cremated.

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I would think anyone arguing the Catholic position on the physical resurrection of our fleshy bodies would be acknowledging God's ability to reform our bodies regardless of how or when we die. If I understood this reply to my post, you agree that we will once again have real bodies after resurrection from death.

As another note, the Resurrected Jesus had a body that not only looks like his former body, it has all the same physical characteristic - plus additional abilities.

Our body was made of bits of the earth molded by the hand of God. Bits of earth are not spirit. Our new body will be made of spirit. I believe it will be created by our spirit at the point of resurrection, since our spirit was made to inhabit a body.

Ken Behrens said:

Our body was made of bits of the earth molded by the hand of God. Bits of earth are not spirit. Our new body will be made of spirit. I believe it will be created by our spirit at the point of resurrection, since our spirit was made to inhabit a body.

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Well I take back what I said earlier as we are obviously not in any agreement of what 1 Co 15 is talking about. And the Saint would not have to go great lengths to explain how a resurrected physical body might be different if it were true he believed it wasn't a physical body at all. A manifestation of real body, something angels can do, is not an example of a "spirit body". It is a fake body in the sense it is not real. Jesus was not playing a trick on His disciples using a fake body, in fact He went to great lengths to demonstrate it was a real body - which means real physical flesh.

If we lose our body and never regain one, then we would no longer be human, as God made us a body AND a soul. In making us He did not trap a spirit within a physical body like a cocoon only to have that spirit released at our death. His intention was clearly to make an animal with an immortal soul and that is what we are and will remain because He made us that way and not some other way.
Our soul does not "inhabit" a body. Our soul and a body are what we are. A physical thing like a body cannot be "made of" something not physical.

DrBubbaLove said:

Well I take back what I said earlier as we are obviously not in any agreement of what 1 Co 15 is talking about. And the Saint would not have to go great lengths to explain how a resurrected physical body might be different if it were true he believed it wasn't a physical body at all. A manifestation of real body, something angels can do, is not an example of a "spirit body". It is a fake body in the sense it is not real. Jesus was not playing a trick on His disciples using a fake body, in fact He went to great lengths to demonstrate it was a real body - which means real physical flesh.

If we lose our body and never regain one, then we would no longer be human, as God made us a body AND a soul. In making us He did not trap a spirit within a physical body like a cocoon only to have that spirit released at our death. His intention was clearly to make an animal with an immortal soul and that is what we are and will remain because He made us that way and not some other way.
Our soul does not "inhabit" a body. Our soul and a body are what we are. A physical thing like a body cannot be "made of" something not physical.

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I am dying to hear your explanation of what the verse means. And of course that Jesus ate, and could telelport from Jerusalem to Emmaus, and be seen by hundreds at one time, but could disappear at the ascension in a cloud. Also what it means that we are spirit soul and body. I Thess. 5:23

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ken Behrens said:

I am dying to hear your explanation of what the verse means. And of course that Jesus ate, and could telelport from Jerusalem to Emmaus, and be seen by hundreds at one time, but could disappear at the ascension in a cloud. Also what it means that we are spirit soul and body. I Thess. 5:23

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What is meant in 1 Co 15 has already been answered here and elsewhere - a "spirit body" is a body resurrected to glory, with abilities our bodies do not currently possess but a body none the less. If the writer meant to say we are raised just a spirit, then he would not need to make the distinction that he did make. Furthermore, though our souls are spirits, we were not made as an immortal Spirit to live eternally without a body. God is Spirit, and angels are immortal spirits - all without form. They can manifest a form- which is no more a "spirit body" of those beings manifesting themselves than a store mannequin being manipulated by an angel would be a "spirit body". He made us instead a soul and body. He did not trap "angels" in an "earthen vessel" temporarily. He made human and distinguishes that type of existence as something different from angels.

Scripture uses spirit in various ways to reference different things, the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of God in the believer, being alive, breath...etc. including being used interchangeably with soul. Saint Paul's remarks can and have long been seen as a reference to the "spirit" of the whole being, in the manner that being reflects how a human, which is a body and soul, can be aligned with God. That would be the same "spirit" he prayed that group of Christians maintained, both together as a unified group of believers and as individuals united in "spirit" with God.

DrBubbaLove said:

What is meant in 1 Co 15 has already been answered here and elsewhere - a "spirit body" is a body resurrected to glory, with abilities our bodies do not currently possess but a body none the less. If the writer meant to say we are raised just a spirit, then he would not need to make the distinction that he did make. Furthermore, though our souls are spirits, we were not made as an immortal Spirit to live eternally without a body. God is Spirit, and angels are immortal spirits - all without form. They can manifest a form- which is no more a "spirit body" of those beings manifesting themselves than a store mannequin being manipulated by an angel would be a "spirit body". He made us instead a soul and body. He did not trap "angels" in an "earthen vessel" temporarily. He made human and distinguishes that type of existence as something different from angels.

Scripture uses spirit in various ways to reference different things, the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of God in the believer, being alive, breath...etc. including being used interchangeably with soul. Saint Paul's remarks can and have long been seen as a reference to the "spirit" of the whole being, in the manner that being reflects how a human, which is a body and soul, can be aligned with God. That would be the same "spirit" he prayed that group of Christians maintained, both together as a unified group of believers and as individuals united in "spirit" with God.

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Then what do we disagree about? Your "extra abilities", I'm sure, include never getting sick, being able to eat, never growing old. Nothing on earth has this ability, so how does the resurrection change this? Unless the spirit somehow assembles the body in some new, improved fashion.

I do not agree that in the verse I quoted, Paul's use of "spirit" refer to the group spirit. Each person prayed for had their own soul, and their own body. There is nothing to indicate that he suddenly switched to group spirit. Besides, the Jews teach that a person has 5 parts, including body mind and spirit, and Paul was highly trained as a rabbi. Why make no mention of the fact that he is saying something different than what his training expected him to think?

There are serious reasons why we cannot use spirit interchangeably with soul, but that is a separate discussion, involving the occult, healing, miracles, etc.

Ken Behrens said:

Then what do we disagree about? Your "extra abilities", I'm sure, include never getting sick, being able to eat, never growing old. Nothing on earth has this ability, so how does the resurrection change this? Unless the spirit somehow assembles the body in some new, improved fashion.

I do not agree that in the verse I quoted, Paul's use of "spirit" refer to the group spirit. Each person prayed for had their own soul, and their own body. There is nothing to indicate that he suddenly switched to group spirit. Besides, the Jews teach that a person has 5 parts, including body mind and spirit, and Paul was highly trained as a rabbi. Why make no mention of the fact that he is saying something different than what his training expected him to think?

There are serious reasons why we cannot use spirit interchangeably with soul, but that is a separate discussion, involving the occult, healing, miracles, etc.

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Something real on earth demonstrated those abilities and it is Jesus body. A body that is nearly identical to the one He died with, plus those abilities.
You asked how Saint Paul's words could be looked at without believing in a Trichotom. I demonstrated one such understanding of those words. That you would deny that could be the proper understanding is no surprise as this is what you want to believe.

That the rest of Saint Paul's language does not support your claim is self evident, both in the words themselves and that those words need to be ignored to make your point. A soul, no matter what else one believes about it, is a spirit. It has no physical properties. If all we are upon resurrection is something with a more special spirit with more powers that has been "freed" from our "fleshy" vessel, there is no need for the writer to go at great lengths about a "spirit body" as something real that is distinct from a "soul", yet the same writer talks about both a spirit body and a soul.
Your version has this Saint talking about something that is not real as if it were real. You would have him saying a "spirit body" that this resurrected "spirit" can manifest is something real that we "become". A manifestation is an appearance, it is not real though it can appear very real. You even said the "spirit" can "form" it's own body just like angles do when they have been manifest. Forming a body out of something so a spirit can be seen and interact in the real world is not the same as having a real functioning body. It is an act. Angels can manifest a body, and everyone hearing Saint Paul knew that and knew those bodies are not real because they knew angels to be spirits, which have no form.

So all the writer had to do if that was his point was simply say our soul after resurrection, no longer encumbered by a form, will be able to do what other spirits do. But that is not what he said. Jesus also went to great lengths to demonstrate His Resurrected Body is real, not a ghost (spirit).

DrBubbaLove said:

A soul, no matter what else one believes about it, is a spirit.

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This statement is simply not correct. This belief is why Catholics are afraid of exorcisms and pentecostals are not. It is also why witches create demons every day. It is also why the gifts stopped from Catholic churches in the third century.

Ken Behrens said:

This statement is simply not correct. This belief is why Catholics are afraid of exorcisms and pentecostals are not. It is also why witches create demons every day. It is also why the gifts stopped from Catholic churches in the third century.

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Where to start. Since the focus was only on a statement about the soul, then should we accept that every other point made was conceded?.
Do you agree then that it makes no sense to talk about something that is not physically real (a spirit) as if it was real (like a body is real?

So you appear to claim to hold the opinion that a soul is not a spirit. There were only two choices, so this means you believe the soul is physically real. Where does this real "part" of our nature reside in the body?

Man is a spirit with a soul that lives in a body

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly & [I pray God] your whole """spirit & soul & body""" be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(YOUR WHOLE SPIRIT, SOUL & BODY)

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of """soul & spirit""", and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL & SPIRIT)

Our spirit is the everlasting eternal part of each of us.

Your soul is your thoughts & emotions that direct the actions we take. And functions only, in relation with our body.

Your body, well look into a mirror.

God is Spirit: John 4:24.

A spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. Luke 24:39

God who is Eternal & Spirit. Breathed His life giving spirit into mans body Gen 2:7. And man became a living soul.

It's only a "living soul" in relation to & in conjunction with the body.

When the body dies & the two are no longer one. Yet, the spirit continues to lives on.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Matthew 16:26 & Mark 8:36 What would it profit a man. To gain the whole world & lose his soul. A soul can be lost.

Our choices in this life will determine whether we spend eternity in the presents of God our creator. Or eternity seperated from God our creator.

MORE HELP:
soul translated from "nepes" noun- self, will, emotions, mind person.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Topic: Soul, SEE Breath, Breathe

<A-2,Noun,4151,pneuma>
signifies (a) "breath, the breath of life," (b) "wind," "spirit," "breath." See GHOST, LIFE, SPIRIT, WIND.

Gen 2:7 The LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and """breathed""" into his nostrils the """breath of life"""; and man became a living soul.
(GOD """BREATHED""" THE """BREATH""" = SPIRIT)

AJTruth said:

Man is a spirit with a soul that lives in a body

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly & [I pray God] your whole """spirit & soul & body""" be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(YOUR WHOLE SPIRIT, SOUL & BODY)

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of """soul & spirit""", and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL & SPIRIT)

Our spirit is the everlasting eternal part of each of us.

Your soul is your thoughts & emotions that direct the actions we take. And functions only, in relation with our body.

Your body, well look into a mirror.

God is Spirit: John 4:24.

A spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. Luke 24:39

God who is Eternal & Spirit. Breathed His life giving spirit into mans body Gen 2:7. And man became a living soul.

It's only a "living soul" in relation to & in conjunction with the body.

When the body dies & the two are no longer one. Yet, the spirit continues to lives on.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Matthew 16:26 & Mark 8:36 What would it profit a man. To gain the whole world & lose his soul. A soul can be lost.

Our choices in this life will determine whether we spend eternity in the presents of God our creator. Or eternity seperated from God our creator.

MORE HELP:
soul translated from "nepes" noun- self, will, emotions, mind person.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Topic: Soul, SEE Breath, Breathe

<A-2,Noun,4151,pneuma>
signifies (a) "breath, the breath of life," (b) "wind," "spirit," "breath." See GHOST, LIFE, SPIRIT, WIND.

Gen 2:7 The LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and """breathed""" into his nostrils the """breath of life"""; and man became a living soul.
(GOD """BREATHED""" THE """BREATH""" = SPIRIT)

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"When the body dies & the two are no longer one. Yet, the spirit continues to lives on."
This sort of uses the concept of soul and spirit interchangeably, so it is kind of hard to understand if you are supporting a trichomty to our nature or not. Depending on the answer, I would agree. Interestingly everything else said applies to either view if human nature.

DrBubbaLove said:

"When the body dies & the two are no longer one. Yet, the spirit continues to lives on."
This sort of uses the concept of soul and spirit interchangeably, so it is kind of hard to understand if you are supporting a trichomty to our nature or not. Depending on the answer, I would agree. Interestingly everything else said applies to either view if human nature.

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Hello DrBubbaLove,
The post say's body (it dies) soul (mind & emotions and can be lost) & spirit (eternal with either spends eternity in the presents of God. Of will spend eternity separated from God)

The with or without depends on a persons choice to receive/accept God's grace and place their faith in the sin atoning sacrifice. Found in the death, burial & resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

Or the choice to reject Gods grace/sin pardon offer and remain in UNBELIEF.

Only God has the ability to divide the spirit & the soul.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of """soul & spirit""", and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Marrow: where blood cells are produced. Life is in the blood. Maranatha