Is Mary God?

JackRT said:

I was a Catholic for my first thirty years. Longer than you I suspect. A Protestant now for 43 years. I have never ever encountered a Catholic who worshipped Mary.

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I am not a catholic and never have been. But I know many and right now I can name at least a dozen who admitted to Mary worship.

antletems said:

Worship Mary? Never seen that myself. Pray to Mary, yes. We ask her to intercede.

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Isn't that in itself a form of worship my friend????

Think about what you just said for a moment. "I pray to Mary. I ask her to intercede."

IF that is not worship......what then is it??

bbbbbbb said:

I also have a good friend who is Jewish and loves to eat pork. That means there are exceptions to every rule.

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I wish you had not posted that. Now I am hungry!!!!

Sonney's Ribs......here I come!

Basil the Great said:

A few of the Church Fathers speculated that Mary might have been guilty of a few minor sins. Hence, it would appear that the Dogma that Mary was sinless was not a universally held doctrine in the Early Church. This is not to say that it was not present in the Early Church in some manner and in some places.

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This whole idea is without merit! It is a no brainer.

Nowhere does the Bible says Mary was sinless or the exception to sin passed on from each generation. For such a miraculous event the Bible surely would have spoken to this issue. Catholics do not find this doctrine from the context of Scripture but from making a pretext out of the Scripture from their Church tradition (which happens to be written down). But again it is not apostolic tradition.

If Mary was conceived without sin then her parents would have certainly known and would have assumed she was to bare the Messiah. The Catholics say she became sinless later in life. This would mean God took someone who has the nature of sin and completely change them to be sinless like Jesus Christ--without a virgin birth.

Certainly such a miracle would be mentioned in the Scripture, but it is not! The Bible has no hint of such a thing to occur and actually says the very opposite in no uncertain terms in Romans 3. Accusing all of humanity to be under sin except for one, the God/man with the virgin birth.

There is not one Scripture given in context to show Mary is without sin. However, there is much to show the opposite.

Major1 said:

Isn't that in itself a form of worship my friend????

Think about what you just said for a moment. "I pray to Mary. I ask her to intercede."

IF that is not worship......what then is it??

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Catholics dont see it as worship. I ask my family to pray for me. Others ask me to pray for them. I ask Mary to intercede for me. What is prayer? A solemn request.

Major1 said:

Isn't that in itself a form of worship my friend????

Think about what you just said for a moment. "I pray to Mary. I ask her to intercede."

IF that is not worship......what then is it??

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The "Hail Mary" (Ave Maria):

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

A prayer is essentially a plea. This prayer starts with a greeting and follows with a plea for a prayer from Mary. It is a prayer for a prayer. It is not worship. When I was a Catholic I was uncomfortable with the veneration of Mary, I prayed to Jesus instead.

Why would anyone need someone other than Jesus to intercede for them?

ed.wilcox1970 said:

Why would anyone need someone other than Jesus to intercede for them?

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Good question.

Remember, Mary is the Mother of Jesus, of God!

Jesus loves His mother massively. How better to get to the Son than through a Mother!

Mary interceded at Cana. She is there for us, Her children. She wants us to ask her to intercede. Jesus gave us his mother at the foot of the cross. He gave Her to us. We need her intercessions. She is Blessed, Holy. She is our Holy Mother.

antletems said:

Catholics dont see it as worship. I ask my family to pray for me. Others ask me to pray for them. I ask Mary to intercede for me. What is prayer? A solemn request.

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I hear you my friend, and I understand what you are saying, and it is totally your choice to do what you d, but what does Scripture tell us?

1 Timothy 2:5...........
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Now then, is that true or is it false. Is church dogma more truthful than the Word of God?? Only YOU can answer that question.

God has said that It is only the Lord Jesus who represents those who have placed their trust in Him before God’s throne of grace. He and only He mediates for us, much as a defense attorney mediates for his client, telling the judge, “Your honor, my client is innocent of all charges against him.”

That is true for us also. Some day we will face God, but we will do so as totally forgiven sinners because of Jesus’ death on our behalf. The “Defense Attorney” took the penalty for us!

We see more proof of this comforting truth in Hebrews 9:15.....
“For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

So it comes down to what YOU believe is more important, the teaching of the church or the teachings of God Himself because this is not a matter of interpretation at all but comprehension.

JackRT said:

The "Hail Mary" (Ave Maria):

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

A prayer is essentially a plea. This prayer starts with a greeting and follows with a plea for a prayer from Mary. It is a prayer for a prayer. It is not worship. When I was a Catholic I was uncomfortable with the veneration of Mary, I prayed to Jesus instead.

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I would say that you did the correct Biblical thing. By the way, why are you not a Catholic now?

Major1 said:

Isn't that in itself a form of worship my friend????

Think about what you just said for a moment. "I pray to Mary. I ask her to intercede."

IF that is not worship......what then is it??

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It's not worship
Protestants may think so
But far short for a Catholic

ed.wilcox1970 said:

Why would anyone need someone other than Jesus to intercede for them?

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1 Timothy 2:1-3

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers,

intercessions,

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and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Panevino said:

1 Timothy 2:1-3

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

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That didn't answer the question.

ed.wilcox1970 said:

Why would anyone need someone other than Jesus to intercede for them?

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Presumably you've never prayed for anyone, or asked anyone to pray for you?

-CryptoLutheran

ed.wilcox1970 said:

That didn't answer the question.

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Christians are told to pray for one another, for people in positions of power, and indeed for all people. Praying for others is something we are taught to do.

When we pray for someone we aren't taking Jesus' place as the Mediator between God and man. When I pray for someone I'm not kicking Jesus off His throne as Lord, or trying to usurp His position. I'm doing what I am told to do--pray for other people.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Presumably you've never prayed for anyone, or asked anyone to pray for you?

-CryptoLutheran

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Praying to the dead is forbidden in the Bible. Praying for people still living is not.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to Mary.

Jesus is all you need. He is all you have.

ed.wilcox1970 said:

Praying to the dead is forbidden in the Bible. Praying for people still living is not.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to Mary.

Jesus is all you need. He is all you have.

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What people tend to forget is that when the Bible is closed for the day the Holy Spirit does not shut up shop!

The Holy Spirit continues to work in the Church. Directing it, teaching it. Like i have said before, we have Sacred Tradition which goes hand in hand with Sacred Scripture. Lots of things may not be 'present' in the Bible but that doesn't mean Gods word stopped on the last page of the Bible!!!

antletems said:

What people tend to forget is that when the Bible is closed for the day the Holy Spirit does not shut up shop!

The Holy Spirit continues to work in the Church. Directing it, teaching it. Like i have said before, we have Sacred Tradition which goes hand in hand with Sacred Scripture. Lots of things may not be 'present' in the Bible but that doesn't mean Gods word stopped on the last page of the Bible!!!

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And that is the problem. When tradition goes against scripture, unbiblical practices creep in.

Happy Reformation Day to all.

ed.wilcox1970 said:

Why would anyone need someone other than Jesus to intercede for them?

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ed.wilcox1970 said:

Praying to the dead is forbidden in the Bible. Praying for people still living is not.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to Mary.

Jesus is all you need. He is all you have.

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Your second argument is an argument that you can use against asking for intercession from the saints (although I disagree - necromancy is different than asking for intercessions). Your first is a classic argument which is a complete fallacy, since we all ask others here on earth to pray for us. Go ahead and use the second argument. The first argument (as also stated by others) doesn't make sense though, unless you believe that it is wrong to ask anyone else to pray and intercede for you.

ed.wilcox1970 said:

Praying to the dead is forbidden in the Bible. Praying for people still living is not.

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Necromancy is forbidden in the Bible.
Asking the saints to pray for us is not forbidden.

But I'm not even so much speaking about petitioning the saints to pray for us so much as I am addressing pointing out that Christians praying for Christians doesn't rob Jesus' place as our Mediator and Advocate.

Biblically we know that the saints and angels in heaven do pray, and their prayers concern events and people here on earth (Revelation 6:10, Zechariah 1:12).

Now, I'm a Lutheran, and the Lutheran Confessions point out that since we have no way to know whether the saints can hear our petitions (since it is not revealed one way or the other) it is best not to do so even though it is a long and pious tradition of the Christian Church. But that they do pray for us is affirmed in the same Confessions, because as noted it is biblical.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to Mary.

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There's a lot of things the Bible doesn't mention, the Bible doesn't mention the Bible for example (that is, the very concept of the Biblical Canon doesn't exist in the pages of Scripture because the Canon didn't come into existence for hundreds of years after the texts of Scripture had already been written). But an argument from silence is generally considered a fallacy; the mere absence of something from the pages of Scripture is not grounds to forbid it. Likewise, silence is not sufficient grounds to command something.

Jesus is all you need. He is all you have.

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Yes, our Lord Jesus is sufficient, His grace, His mercy; He is enough that we might be saved and have peace with God. But that isn't an argument against Christian praxis, and if it is being used as such then it is a misguided use of such language.

-CryptoLutheran