How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

sdowney717 · Sep 12, 2016

bling said:
That does not explain in anyway how in your thinking God’s selection is not arbitrary. It is not the fact: God is merciful, God is Love, the elect are born again, or God has foreknowledge of who He elects, but the “arbitrariness” of God’s selection of the elect is in the fact there is no difference between those He elects and those He does not elect. So why does God choose to elect a particular person and choose not to elect another person?

Paul goes there in Romans 9 in saying that God's will can not be resisted, and so then why would God find fault?

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

bling · Sep 13, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Paul goes there in Romans 9 in saying that God's will can not be resisted, and so then why would God find fault?

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God’s will is solid as far as being born a Jew or a gentile, born slave or free, born man or woman, born poor or rich, and born healthy or hurting. Those gentile in Rome born into a pagan family may certainly ask: “how can God blame me?”, but as has been shown throughout Romans it does not matter as far as salvation is concerned if you were born Jew or Gentile.

God’s will is also solid as far as who will be saved and who will be lost, but that has to do with the acceptance or rejection of God’s charity by the individual. God’s wrath will be upon those that reject His charity.

Geralt · Sep 13, 2016

that is not entirely correct correct. by default we are all doomed to God's wrath. "rejection" has not yet come into play at all. even if the individual does nothing (neither accept or reject) he is still under God's wrath.

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

the problem is NOT the decision to reject, but our very nature which is enmity against God. we are BY NATURE Children of Wrath, ALL of mankind. and this nature of our unregenerate life is like gravity that inclines us to sin (passion of the flesh, desires of the body, among many others.) and cannot be helped.

that is why when grace appeared, and the person is born again by the sovereign and monergestic act of God- it is not a matter of decision, but a matter of new nature. old nature => new nature. and like the old, we have a new gravitational inclination to follow God. you cannot resist what you desire. so we submit ourselves fully to the grace of God for we love God. if a question to choose is put forward, all we can say is yes. regeneration precedes faith.

bling said:
God’s will is solid as far as being born a Jew or a gentile, born slave or free, born man or woman, born poor or rich, and born healthy or hurting. Those gentile in Rome born into a pagan family may certainly ask: “how can God blame me?”, but as has been shown throughout Romans it does not matter as far as salvation is concerned if you were born Jew or Gentile.

God’s will is also solid as far as who will be saved and who will be lost, but that has to do with the acceptance or rejection of God’s charity by the individual. God’s wrath will be upon those that reject His charity.

sdowney717 · Sep 14, 2016

Yes, people are born rejecting God by nature they eventually do so and become conscious of sin.
Many people consider they have good in them more than bad, but to God we must be perfect.

And with God He accomplishes that by imputing righteousness to us by Christ's work.
So for all who are 'in Christ', then they MUST by their new natures all be saved, or God would be a liar..

OzSpen · Sep 14, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Yes, people are born rejecting God by nature they eventually do so and become conscious of sin.
Many people consider they have good in them more than bad, but to God we must be perfect.

And with God He accomplishes that by imputing righteousness to us by Christ's work.
So for all who are 'in Christ', then they MUST by their new natures all be saved, or God would be a liar..

Could you be showing a blind eye to 1 Timothy 1:18-20 (ESV)?

18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (emphasis added).

Even after receiving faith (and imputed righteousness), it is possible to shipwreck one's faith, as Hymenaeus and Alexander found out.

Oz

sdowney717 · Sep 14, 2016

Even to the destruction of their flesh, that the spirit may be saved?
Do you think this has relevance?
1 Corinthians 5:4-5New King James Version (NKJV)
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

People can make a wreck of their faith, but this is not saying they will be doomed to hell, God makes all things work to a person's good if they are called by Him to be saved. And hell is not a good thing. But yeah, they are going to suffer a lot. Do you like pain?

sdowney717 · Sep 14, 2016

Consider that becoming a new creation 'in Christ', means spiritually you are then 'in Christ', BUT, our bodies and minds which constitute the soul, has not yet been transformed. Soul to me is a complex understanding.

Now these here are unsaved for sure.

2 Timothy 3New King James Version (NKJV)
Perilous Times and Perilous Men
3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

However God may still grant some who oppose the truth about Christ to repent and believe after being captured by Satan to do his will. We do not know their end regarding those who have shipwrecked themselves.

bottomofsandal · Sep 14, 2016

OzSpen said:
Could you be showing a blind eye to 1 Timothy 1:18-20 (ESV)?

Even after receiving faith (and imputed righteousness), it is possible to shipwreck one's faith, as Hymenaeus and Alexander found out.

Oz

Is the faith of every saved man always 100%?
Maybe even some go through a time of unbelief?
We were not told these 2 were kicked out of The Kingdom...

Does Paul not say to fan into flames the gift of our faith?
Which means that faith can and will require strengthening?

God keeps us, preserves us, presents us holy and blameless, completes the work that He began is us.
Please see Philipians 1:6, 1Thessalonians 5:23, and Jude 24. Is the grace of God not mighty and powerful?

He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it!---1Thessalonians 5:24

bling · Sep 14, 2016

ve

Geralt said:
that is not entirely correct correct. by default we are all doomed to God's wrath. "rejection" has not yet come into play at all. even if the individual does nothing (neither accept or reject) he is still under God's wrath.

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

the problem is NOT the decision to reject, but our very nature which is enmity against God. we are BY NATURE Children of Wrath, ALL of mankind. and this nature of our unregenerate life is like gravity that inclines us to sin (passion of the flesh, desires of the body, among many others.) and cannot be helped.

that is why when grace appeared, and the person is born again by the sovereign and monergestic act of God- it is not a matter of decision, but a matter of new nature. old nature => new nature. and like the old, we have a new gravitational inclination to follow God. you cannot resist what you desire. so we submit ourselves fully to the grace of God for we love God. if a question to choose is put forward, all we can say is yes. regeneration precedes faith.

So you believe an unborn baby is a child of wrath deserving hell fire?

Geralt · Sep 14, 2016

such a malicious mind eh. no i dont believe every unborn child is deserving of hell.
what you should ask is what the bible says, and not what i think should happen to them.

the bible teaches that every child conceived bears the sin nature inherited from Adam (Psalm 51:5) and is therefore subject to judgment. At the same time, God reveals Himself as a God of goodness and mercy (Psalm 136:26). He is “gracious in all His works” (Psalm 145:17).

bling said:
ve
So you believe an unborn baby is a child of wrath deserving hell fire?

EmSw · Sep 14, 2016

Geralt said:
such a malicious mind eh. no i dont believe every unborn child is deserving of hell.
what you should ask is what the bible says, and not what i think should happen to them.

the bible teaches that every child conceived bears the sin nature inherited from Adam (Psalm 51:5) and is therefore subject to judgment. At the same time, God reveals Himself as a God of goodness and mercy (Psalm 136:26). He is “gracious in all His works” (Psalm 145:17).

Even if every unborn child has a sin nature, that is not what sends one to hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here again, we have one who adds words to God' word to confirm his belief. The wages of sin (not sin nature) is death. Wages are given for what one has done.

OzSpen · Sep 15, 2016

bottomofsandal said:
Is the faith of every saved man always 100%?
Maybe even some go through a time of unbelief?
We were not told these 2 were kicked out of The Kingdom...

Does Paul not say to fan into flames the gift of our faith?
Which means that faith can and will require strengthening?

God keeps us, preserves us, presents us holy and blameless, completes the work that He began is us.
Please see Philipians 1:6, 1Thessalonians 5:23, and Jude 24. Is the grace of God not mighty and powerful?

He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it!---1Thessalonians 5:24

bottom,

The issue we are dealing with is shipwreck of one's faith (1 Tim 1:18-20).

What had Hymenaeus and Alexander done to ‘shipwreck’ their faith. Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek lexicon gives the meaning of this word from apwthew as ‘reject, repudiate’ (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:102).

Therefore Lenski’s commentary, based on the Greek, concludes that

they got so far away from the apostolic prophecies that they did even what is here stated regarding their conscience and their faith. Paul himself had dealt with two of them, and when he held up to them the prophecies, i. e., the apostolic gospel teaching, and thereby tried to reach their conscience he found that they had actually thrust all good conscience away and had thereby lost their faith altogether. The true gospel teaching no longer made an impression on them, it had been smothered by their myths, etc. (Lenski 1937:532-533).

Faith that is shipwrecked is faith that has been repudiated, rejected. It couldn’t be clearer, based on the Greek etymology.

To shipwreck one’s faith is to abandon/repudiate the faith, reject the faith. This is similar to the message given in Hebrews 6:4-6,

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (ESV).

Oz

Works consulted

Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Lenski, R C H 1937. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. Paul’s epistles to the Colossians, to the Thessalonians, to Timothy, to Titus, and to Philemon. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers Inc.

Geralt · Sep 15, 2016

the fallen nature is what makes people sinners or sin. and sin is not what 'one has done', this only applies to civil human laws. God sees the thoughts and motives which precedes actions, aka desire.

without even doing anything else you are still alienated from God, for God is holy and cannot have fellowship with fallen creatures.

humankind sin because they are born with a fallen nature. Ephesians 2:3

ignore eph 2:3 every time, you will only find yourself not only denying scripture but the truth and reality of human nature since time memorial.

EmSw said:
Even if every unborn child has a sin nature, that is not what sends one to hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here again, we have one who adds words to God' word to confirm his belief. The wages of sin (not sin nature) is death. Wages are given for what one has done.

EmSw · Sep 15, 2016

Geralt said:
the fallen nature is what makes people sinners or sin. and sin is not what 'one has done', this only applies to civil human laws. God sees the thoughts and motives which precedes actions, aka desire.

without even doing anything else you are still alienated from God, for God is holy and cannot have fellowship with fallen creatures.

humankind sin because they are born with a fallen nature. Ephesians 2:3

ignore eph 2:3 every time, you will only find yourself not only denying scripture but the truth and reality of human nature since time memorial.

Behavior in times past, in the lust of the flesh, it says. This does not describe the unborn.

Geralt · Sep 16, 2016

always looking for excuses eh.

kill an unborn child, like in abortion, what happens ? the child dies.
now why would the unborn child die, since it had "not sin" as per your definition eh ? only human ? or can you think any other reason above that ? if you kill adam and eve before they fell, will they die ? of course not.

because death is the consequence of sin. and humans and babies are all subject to death and decay simply because they all share the sin and consequence of adam.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [[8] no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.

EmSw said:
Behavior in times past, in the lust of the flesh, it says. This does not describe the unborn.

EmSw · Sep 16, 2016

Geralt said:
always looking for excuses eh.

Excuses for what?

Geralt said:
kill an unborn child, like in abortion, what happens ? the child dies.
now why would the unborn child die, since it had "not sin" as per your definition eh ? only human ? or can you think any other reason above that ?

I've never heard that the wages of sin is physical death. Physical death is the cessation of the heart and lungs.

It is appointed for all men to die once, and that's not because of sin.

Besides, how can you kill someone who is already dead?

Geralt said:
if you kill adam and eve before they fell, will they die ? of course not.

If you kill anyone, they will die.

Geralt said:
because death is the consequence of sin. and humans and babies are all subject to death and decay simply because they all share the sin and consequence of adam.

Okay, if you want to believe that, you are more than welcome. But remember, sin is a spiritual condition, and as a result, spiritual death is the consequence.

Also, if Jesus saves us from our sins, why do we still physically die?

Geralt · Sep 16, 2016

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen 2:17

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Gen 3:17-19

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Rom 5:12-14

there is no curse of physical death, when there is no sin. and with Adam's sin and death, all die.

EmSw said:
Excuses for what?

I've never heard that the wages of sin is physical death. Physical death is the cessation of the heart and lungs.

It is appointed for all men to die once, and that's not because of sin.

Besides, how can you kill someone who is already dead?

If you kill anyone, they will die.

Okay, if you want to believe that, you are more than welcome. But remember, sin is a spiritual condition, and as a result, spiritual death is the consequence.

Also, if Jesus saves us from our sins, why do we still physically die?

bling · Sep 16, 2016

Geralt said:
such a malicious mind eh. no i dont believe every unborn child is deserving of hell.
what you should ask is what the bible says, and not what i think should happen to them.

the bible teaches that every child conceived bears the sin nature inherited from Adam (Psalm 51:5) and is therefore subject to judgment. At the same time, God reveals Himself as a God of goodness and mercy (Psalm 136:26). He is “gracious in all His works” (Psalm 145:17).

So you do not believe “every” unborn child is deserving of hell, so you believe only some are deserving of hell? What differences are there in these unborn children that make some deserving of hell and others not deserving?

Psalms 51:5 Is about the “sin” of David’s mother “…in sin did my mother conceive me” and not David’s sin, so what is that referring to?

Yes, an unborn child can die and that is because of “sin”, but that is due to the fact Adam & Eve (our best all human representatives) sinned, thus fulfilling our earthly objective without sin was not possible. Death was part of the requirement to help mature adults fulfill their earthly objective, so is death “bad” in and of itself?

Geralt · Sep 16, 2016

deserving hell is God's justice for everyone.

bling said:
So you do not believe “every” unborn child is deserving of hell, so you believe only some are deserving of hell? What differences are there in these unborn children that make some deserving of hell and others not deserving?

Psalms 51:5 Is about the “sin” of David’s mother “…in sin did my mother conceive me” and not David’s sin, so what is that referring to?

Yes, an unborn child can die and that is because of “sin”, but that is due to the fact Adam & Eve (our best all human representatives) sinned, thus fulfilling our earthly objective without sin was not possible. Death was part of the requirement to help mature adults fulfill their earthly objective, so is death “bad” in and of itself?

EmSw · Sep 16, 2016

Geralt said:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, FOR IN THE DAY that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen 2:17

But Adam didn't die physically the day he ate of the tree. How did he die the day he ate of the tree?

Geralt said:
And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Gen 3:17-19

It doesn't say returning to the ground is a curse. In fact, it's a blessing. Do you not want to be in Heaven with the Lord? I do!

Geralt said:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

Click to expand...

Geralt said:
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Rom 5:12-14

Geralt said:
there is no curse of physical death, when there is no sin. and with Adam's sin and death, all die.

It doesn't say everyone dies because of Adam sinned. It says death spread to all men because all (men) sinned.

If physical death is a curse, then Jesus didn't take that curse away for any man.

How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

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