Where in the bible does it say, if you cant keep the commandments perfectly, dont bother at all???

VanillaSunflowers said:

Are you saying there was no law before Moses?

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Good point.

that certainly would be news to Abraham --

Notice what God says to Isaac about Abraham

Gen 26 : 4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

disciple1 said:

Jesus never said to learn Hebrew and Greek, but he did know the bible would be used world wide.

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Indeed - Jesus promoting the "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition.


Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

disciple1 said:

I believe you admit you don't keep the law perfectly, so you've failed there, here's the only way to be justified.
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

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How much Bible should we chop into shreds until an evangelist shows up that is sinless?? I say.. NONE!

And as for your excuse - well Christ already showed up - doesn't that mean that even by the angle you are using - you should not be slicing up the Bible and ignoring it?

QUOTE="BobRyan, ... ... ...
Notice what God says to Isaac about Abraham
Gen 26 : 4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”QUOTE
COOL!(Faithful, True, and Right) Thanks be to Yhwh Forever!
I haven't found out yet, but this looks like the same instruction Yeshua gives to His disciples (which includes the apostles of course) and told them
to go into all nations and teach others to do the same- making them disciples.

Someone else noted :
The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).


“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .


“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Proverbs 13:14 The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Proverbs 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.
Proverbs 28:7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.
Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

SAAN said:

That is a popular theme on here with some that if you cant keep the commandments perfectly, you have placed yourself under a curse, or now have reason to not bother at all even trying to keep the commandments in the bible, since only Jesus was perfect.



So my question is, since God repeated throughout the enitre bible stressed keep his commandments and even the OT ended with that too, where did God or Jesus tell his people, if you cant keep my commands perfectly, dont even bother to try at all?

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First of all, you're misrepresenting the fact that we believe that; God's New Covenant is about having faith in Jesus Christ and not about keeping the Mosaic Law.
If Jesus said: The law and the prophets was until John and after that, the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached." why are you forcing obedience to the law and the prophets on Gentile Christian?

The popular theme on here is: "we're not under the law". These are scriptures you fail to recognize as Christian doctrine.

Zechariah 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

SAAN said:

That is a popular theme on here with some that if you cant keep the commandments perfectly, you have placed yourself under a curse, or now have reason to not bother at all even trying to keep the commandments in the bible, since only Jesus was perfect.



So my question is, since God repeated throughout the enitre bible stressed keep his commandments and even the OT ended with that too, where did God or Jesus tell his people, if you cant keep my commands perfectly, dont even bother to try at all?

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This shows the law makes nothing perfect, and never will.
Hebrews chapter 7

11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.


18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
Here's the only thing we need to do, stop being selfish and do it, it's more important than giving to a church.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psalms 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Proverbs 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Travis93 said:

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

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Everyone that ever lived except Christ is a sinner. Here's the purpose of the law.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoner's by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
Romans chapter 5 verse 20
The law was added so the trespass would increase.
Keep studying the bible you'll find it's all about love.

SAAN said:

That is a popular theme on here with some that if you cant keep the commandments perfectly, you have placed yourself under a curse, or now have reason to not bother at all even trying to keep the commandments in the bible, since only Jesus was perfect.

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First of all you put us on the defensive. It is not a "popular belief", Christians have laws, just not the ritual laws of Israel. What you believe you are under and what scripture tells Christians we are under are two different belief systems, so you think we are under a curse when we don't kowtow to your understanding. I seems to me you are the one who makes excuses not to observe Moses law, the one you propose we all should keep.

So my question is, since God repeated throughout the enitre bible stressed keep his commandments and even the OT ended with that too, where did God or Jesus tell his people, if you cant keep my commands perfectly, dont even bother to try at all?

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You want us to believe the word commandments means 10 commandments or Torah. Well, we know differently. Read below in green what the commands we are to observe to know we belong to the truth.

One big thing I wish would stop is people stop calling the law of God the law of Moses. Moses simy communicated and delivered the law FROM GOD to a Hebrew people whose heart was already too stony to perceive Him and His law anyway. The "Law of Moses" often contains, "And the LORD God commanded..."

Either we really think Moses said these commands, or this is God saying this to Moses - who would later give it to the Hebrews. In other words, it is God's Law.

Now, if we don't have to follow those commandments of God, what do we follow? Saying His laws have conditions or expirating dates is dangerous enough.

And, believe it or not there are people who really want to follow all laws of God - and are spiritually free because they know obedience to the law does not determine one's salvation.

But seriously, I want to know what laws we are supposed to follow if not God''s law.

tatteredsoul said:

One big thing I wish would stop is people stop calling the law of God the law of Moses. Moses simy communicated and delivered the law FROM GOD to a Hebrew people whose heart was already too stony to perceive Him and His law anyway. The "Law of Moses" often contains, "And the LORD God commanded..."

Either we really think Moses said these commands, or this is God saying this to Moses - who would later give it to the Hebrews. In other words, it is God's Law.

Now, if we don't have to follow those commandments of God, what do we follow? Saying His laws have conditions or expirating dates is dangerous enough.

And, believe it or not there are people who really want to follow all laws of God - and are spiritually free because they know obedience to the law does not determine one's salvation.

But seriously, I want to know what laws we are supposed to follow if not God''s law.

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This shows the law makes nothing perfect, new or old testament, all we need to do is help people.
Hebrews chapter 7

11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.


18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

VanillaSunflowers said:

Are you saying there was no law before Moses?

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I don't think he's saying that. He said the law which you changed to no law. Moses clearly said Abraham didn't have the law (10 Cs) in Deut 5:3.

bugkiller

Travis93 said:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

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So what. There's no connection between Gen 26 and LK 1.

bugkiller

BobRyan said:

Good point.

that certainly would be news to Abraham --

Notice what God says to Isaac about Abraham

Gen 26 : 4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

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Yes notice what God said about Abraham. The word is "My." The same author said -

5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deut 5

Remember details matter.

bugkiller

yeshuaslavejeff said:

QUOTE="BobRyan, ... ... ...
Notice what God says to Isaac about Abraham
Gen 26 : 4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”QUOTE
COOL!(Faithful, True, and Right) Thanks be to Yhwh Forever!
I haven't found out yet, but this looks like the same instruction Yeshua gives to His disciples (which includes the apostles of course) and told them
to go into all nations and teach others to do the same- making them disciples.

Someone else noted :
The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).


“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .


“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

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I find it most remarkable that Moses said Abraham did not have the law covenant (10 Cs) given exclusively to Israel. Paulsaid0y ears after Abraham. Of course we know for a fact Paul the most brilliant Hebrew scholar of his day is an ignorant liar. (said tongue -in-cheek for the slow minded.)

bugkiller

Travis93 said:

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Proverbs 13:14 The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Proverbs 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.
Proverbs 28:7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.
Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

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You are using the above to void the NC/NT.

bugkiller

SAAN said:

The Torah are the laws of God, and what the deciples taught from, what Paul taught from, what Jesus taught from, and what ALL the commands in the NT are pulled from.

Like I said you dont believe your own theology, when you say Torah was for Israel only, but you unknowing keep it in you everyday life. When you are loving God and Loving your neighbor, not committing sexual immorality, etc, YOU ARE KEEPING TORAH whether you like it or not.

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Sorry but theres' no such thing as obedience by incidence. Incidence also doesn't how obligation in whole or part.

The word commandments can only mean one thing and its the same thing they meant through out the entire bible. Why would Jesus keep saying over and over to keep the commandments, he is here to do the will of the father, and that all the Commandments can be summed up as Love God and Love one another. They are a sum, not a cancellation o all the other commandments.

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Then Jesus lied when he said I give you a "new commandment"

Im not a woman, so commands to women dont apply to me or Jesus either at the time. Im not a priest or farmer or king and even if I were, there would have to be a temple and active government set up in Israel to even be accountable to any of those commands.

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No one made such a suggestion. In fact you're the one who brings it up.

So if the commandments were for Israel only and doesnt apply to Christians, sin is defined as transgression of the Torah, and the New Covenant was for Israel only, then Christian dont have a chance.

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Sin isn't defined that way. Since you believe that Christians don't have a chance why are you wasting your time here evangelizing us? This also shows you have no respect for the rules here then want us to take your disrespect upon ourselves. Aren't your true colors really showing?
Essentially your claim is to be something other than a Christian .

bugkiller

SAAN said:

The Torah are the laws of God, and what the disciples taught from, what Paul taught from, what Jesus taught from, and what ALL the commands in the NT are pulled from.
.

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True - but those who are at war with the LAW of God will not want to hear that.

bugkiller said:

Sorry but theres' no such thing as obedience by incidence. Incidence also doesn't how obligation in whole or part.Then Jesus lied when he said I give you a "new commandment"No one made such a suggestion. In fact you're the one who brings it up.Sin isn't defined that way. Since you believe that Christians don't have a chance why are you wasting your time here evangelizing us? ...

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And on and on it goes