bhsmte

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I have to agree with you on the press conference charge. Her opponent puts himself out there day after day, whether you agree with his statements or not; Hillary simply hides behind press releases or controled one on one interviews. Does not speak well for dealing with real life face to face meetings with leaders. You have to wonder what she is afraid of.......

What you mention, is one reason, the democrats have run better presidential campaigns, since 2008. They have been skilled at controlling exposure and staying in touch with the center/moderates and reducing risk.

I know when Obama went into the White House, he said he would run the most transparent administration ever. Well, veteran press staff have been quoted (including those from the more left leaning outlets) that Obama has run the most restrictive (access wise) administration they have seen.
 
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Vylo

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No.

She's shown herself to be careless in her administration, and pandering in her "views". There were better option on both sides of the aisle, and there is a better option still in Johnson, who has shown he can lead, govern, admit and adapt when mistakes are made and take responsibility for his actions.
 
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katautumn

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I thought for sure there would be long posts about the virtues and qualifications of Hillary by her fans and supporters; I also thought there would be long tirades about her "criminality" and unfitness for office.
Instead, everyone ignores her.....wonder if that is what will happen in the election process?.....Trump rules the headlines and Hillary is at the back of the line?

Full disclosure, I'm coming from the position of someone who has never been a fan of Hillary Clinton. I thought she was too fussy, too weak, and too right-leaning moderate to be my choice for POTUS when she ran against Obama in '08, and my position has not changed just because "OHMYGOSH TRUMP!!!" Breaking through the glass ceiling doesn't count when you had to ride on the back of your womanizing husband and then throw money at it.

Let me share a story. A knitting site I'm a member of, back in 2008, there were many members who supported Barack Obama. I was one of them. The Hillary Clinton group was about 250 members and the Barack Obama group was over 5,000. Then there was a group of McCain supporters. When the election dust settled and those of us who had supported Obama's campaign were reveling in his victory, only a small handful of Hillary fans joined our ranks. Instead, they joined an uber conservative conspiracy theory group and devoted a lot of time to bashing "libtards" and President Obama. I found it odd that Democratic voters would be so...Neocon.

I have literally come across only a small handful of actual Hillary fans. People who say they'll vote for her because, "at least she isn't Trump", yeah. People who sing her praises like she's the most amazing candidate we've ever had? Hardly. I actually die a little inside on the rare occasion I see social media statuses about how someone wept with pride when she gave her acceptance speech. These same people talked so much smack about her during the '08 election. So, it just goes to show you, people aren't really that thrilled about her. They're just glad she's not Trump.

With all that said, I will not vote for her. If I wanted to vote for a Neolib, I'd vote for Trump. I will vote Green Party this election. It will be the first time in many years I haven't voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. Down-ticket, I have a few more progressive options on the ballot, running for the Dems, but as a straight-ticket Blue voter? Never again. This election has proven to me that my beloved Democratic Party has become obsessed with centrism, cronyism, and dishonesty. Oh, and forgiving the racist, sexist, homophobic, warhawk past of someone who claims to present "the most liberal platform the DNC has ever run on".
 
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The Cadet

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Not because I think she's some sort of evil genius looking to overthrow democracy as some would suggest, but simply for the fact that all of her policy prescriptions (that I've heard at least) don't sound like anything other than trying some of the same old things and expecting different results.

What's wrong with "more of the same"?

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/obamas-numbers-april-2016-update/

"The same" has been pretty darn good lately. I mean, yeah, it could be better, but things are gradually improving. There's nothing wrong with "the same old things". Honestly, I feel like that's the strongest thing that really needs to be said in favor of Clinton. The last 8 years have been a pretty consistent trek upwards. The country has, by the numbers, gotten better. You can complain about police getting shot and terrorist attacks, but terrorist attacks are an extreme rarity that it's unlikely any policy we make could do much about, and police deaths are actually down from the last year - which was already pretty darn low. The economy is better, and if the republicans hadn't blocked a further job bill and then proceeded to make brinkmanship over the economy the order of the day with things like the sequester, the debt ceiling, and the shutdown, we'd be in an even better place.

Fundamentally, Hillary Clinton proposes rational, sensible, carefully thought-out policies that are largely a continuation of the successful policies of her predecessor. She changes her position based on the available information, she has a deep, working understanding of two of the three branches of government based on personal experience, and she was extremely popular pretty much whenever she wasn't running for office (her in-state approval rating as senator of New York got up to 70% - that's pretty good). Oh, and she'd make history by shattering the glass ceiling, but that's not as important. I'm not sure what else you really want in a presidential candidate. I see no problem with this. And that's independent of any competition.

...Of course, talking about basic competency in rational decision-making and statescraft wouldn't be worth mentioning in most cases. Fact is, the best reason to vote for Clinton is because it would be pretty hard to find a presidential candidate who did more harm to the USA's image in the world on the campaign trail than Donald Trump has. All those things about being rational and carefully considered? It doesn't apply to her opposition. Trump doesn't seem to do much thinking. His ideas are half-baked nonsense, with very little thought behind them, and he lies so often that talk of a "post-truth" candidacy is not out of line.

Absolutely not. She is one of the most morally void and corrupt people walking the earth today.

She can't be trusted to speak the simple truth.

Really. "One of the most morally void and corrupt people walking the earth today". Really.

This is what we talk about when we refer to CDS. I mean, yeah, Trump is bad, but you don't see a whole lot of people saying, "He needs to be in jail for his crimes, he's the worst person in the history of the world". And yet, somehow, Clinton belongs to the most immoral and corrupt people in the world? She's a politician, not a Goldman Sachs executive. Yeesh.

But case in point:

These charges would have a touch more validity if they weren't coming from people fawning over Hillary Clinton a woman who makes things up as she goes and lies through her teeth on a continual basis. This is why so many of us think you guys are crazy and incapable of making a fair judgment.

You try to turn this around, but it really doesn't work. Like, just for example, let's compare the fact-checking on Hillary's DNC speech to Trump's RNC speech.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hecking-hillary-clintons-acceptance-democrat/

Two statements below "mostly true": one a misleading jobs figure, and one a slightly out-of-date figure on inequality.

By comparison, here's Trump's RNC speech:

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/21/122544...eptance-speech-republican-convention-rnc-2016

The key elements of his speech, the whole "Crime and lawlessness" business? Misleading and wrong. He makes numerous substantial errors that would be hard to make if they weren't on purpose. And this is one of his more accurate speeches. Politico compiled and fact-checked 4.6 hours of his stump speeches while still in the midst of the republican primaries. The results?

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-check-errors-exaggerations-falsehoods-213730

With the GOP front-runner scooping up delegates in a march toward the Republican nomination, POLITICO subjected a week’s worth of his words to our magazine’s fact-checking process. We chronicled 4.6 hours of stump speeches and press conferences, from a rally in Concord, N.C., on Monday to a rally on Friday in St. Louis.

The result: more than five dozen statements deemed mischaracterizations, exaggerations, or simply false – the kind of stuff that would have been stripped from one of our stories, or made the whole thing worthy of the spike. It equates to roughly one misstatement every five minutes on average.
That's a really big difference. Yeah, you can pull out one of two lies Hillary has made. Of course you can. She's a politician who's been in Washington for decades; at some point she's going to say something that is untrue or misleading. It happens - yes, even to Gary Johnson. But to say something untrue or misleading every five minutes? That's nuts. It's blatantly obvious that Trump either doesn't know very much and is just making it up as he goes along, or he does know and simply lies. That's a big difference from Hillary, who tends to make it her business to know stuff. It's not the same thing. The same claims simply do not apply. You might as well try to claim Clinton is an authoritarian or a demagogue - she isn't. Trump is.

Does not speak well for dealing with real life face to face meetings with leaders.

Good news: we don't have to rely on the proxy of her record dealing with the press corps, because Clinton, unlike Trump, has actually met with foreign leaders in an official capacity. It was part of her job, remember? A job that, by all accounts, she didn't do all that badly in.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Wondering how much of what he says can be backed up with more than just his say so? Much would be hard to prove no doubt, but the more that can be substantiated the more the accusations become at least believable if not provable.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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What's wrong with "more of the same"?

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/obamas-numbers-april-2016-update/

"The same" has been pretty darn good lately. I mean, yeah, it could be better, but things are gradually improving. There's nothing wrong with "the same old things". Honestly, I feel like that's the strongest thing that really needs to be said in favor of Clinton.

I do take a little bit of exception to the stats provided under the banner of "Obama's Numbers"...and that's not to attack you personally (or even criticize Obama for that matter)...but some of those numbers seem to fall into the category of "giving credit to/blaming for" certain things that really aren't under a president's control.

...and I'm not just playing front-runner on that. I critique both liberals and conservatives on that matter (you'll find numerous historical posts from me where I call out conservatives for blaming certain economic aspects on Obama when they were things that were completely out of his control)

I'm one of those kind of guys where if a person is going to make the claim that "Obama deserves credit for" or "Obama deserves blame for" a certain economic aspect, I tend to ask for specifics on what precise executive action was responsible for the upturn/downturn in whatever economic metric is being measured. In many cases, folks can't really come up with one and it simply boils down to blaming/giving credit to the guy who just happens to be sitting in the chair when something happened.

Fundamentally, Hillary Clinton proposes rational, sensible, carefully thought-out policies that are largely a continuation of the successful policies of her predecessor.

I'm okay with some of her policies, I don't want to just bash her for the sake of bashing her...

For example,
-capping credit card interest rates to curb predatory lending
-her stances on drug law reforms
-her stances on education reforms
Those are all things I can get behind...

However, her stances on:
-minimum wage increases
-gun control
-unionization/relationships with the big labor unions

...are areas where I feel that she's taking the "same old same old" Democratic-party approach and needs to look at those things with a fresh set of eyes.

I mentioned this in other threads, but in our country/system/culture/etc... there's a place for liberalism and there's a place for conservatism. ...but those 2 qualities need to be correctly focused/harnessed in order for them to provide their respective benefits.

It doesn't apply to her opposition. Trump doesn't seem to do much thinking. His ideas are half-baked nonsense, with very little thought behind them, and he lies so often that talk of a "post-truth" candidacy is not out of line.

...and the Trump policy package is a perfect inverse of the thing I mentioned above. Simply taking the "this is the conservative stance so I'll take it" approach without any sort of focus or restraint.


Somewhere along the way, our society stopped viewing our parties as "check & balances to each other" and started adopting the mindset that "the other party is our enemy". This attitude definitely is more prevalent on the republican side of the fence, if a republican congressmen even dares to work with a democratic congressmen on anything, they're instantly labelled as a "RINO/sellout" and risk losing their seat. ...but there is (somewhat smaller) contingent on the democratic side who takes the stance that if a person's not willing to 100% embrace the European-style liberalism, that they're somehow an enemy of the middle class.

There was a time when people in opposite parties still had more in common with each other than things they were in opposition on. For instance, if you look at Eisenhower and Kennedy... you could still have passionate opposition to the policies of another party that you felt strongly against, but it was still respectful opposition. Now, you have to hate the other side or you're labelled a "sellout". Granted, as I said before, the republicans display more of this "eat your own" attitude than the democrats...but none the less.

One of the few instances left of "respectful opposition" left in the country is the relationship between John McCain and Joe Biden.
 
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katautumn

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What's wrong with "more of the same"?

It depends on who you ask. If you have a fetish for centrism, then more of the same is great and you would probably be comfortable with another party elite moderate. For those who fall either on the far-left or far-right end of the spectrum, maintaining the status quo is not within our vocabulary. More of the same (speaking from my progressive vantage point) will give us more wage disparity between the lower and upper classes, with an ever-shrinking middle class. More of the same will not bring our troops home. More of the same will not improve race relations or gun violence. On President Obama's watch, same-sex marriage was legalized, but the SCOTUS also decided that Hobby Lobby had personhood rights and could, therefore, circumvent laws that would provide contraceptive coverage for female employees. On President Obama's watch we got some semblance of healthcare reform, but we did not have any sort of common sense gun control that has curtailed gun violence.

The status quo isn't about doing what's best for the nation. It's about casting that policy net wide and hoping you rock the boat with as few people as humanly possible. Even if the jobs market remains stagnant. Even if no major policy changes are made. Even if our troops are still deployed. Just maintain an even-kilter and things will go along smoothly...until people get restless and suddenly no one is happy.
 
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The Cadet

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More of the same (speaking from my progressive vantage point) will give us more wage disparity between the lower and upper classes, with an ever-shrinking middle class. More of the same will not bring our troops home. More of the same will not improve race relations or gun violence.

When I speak of the status quo, I mean the gradual shifts and improvements being made over time here. Yeah, if nothing changes, then that's a problem. But look at Clinton's agenda. Look at her proposals. It's not just "Everything is hunky-dory, let's stay the course", a large part of it is "Here's something that needs fixing, here's something that needs fixing, let's tweak this here and that there..." All in her usual meticulously-researched style, of course. And yeah, there's nothing hugely radical there. Why should there have to be? Better is better. Massive, radical shifts often have unexpected consequences, and are far harder to reach compromise or consensus on - what is it with the modern obsession with revolution?
 
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