This bible principle the remedy for poverty?

RDKirk · Jun 18, 2013

Are you proposing the entire nation (or world) adhering to biblical principles, or just the Body of Christ?

Certainly there is a host of scriptural principles that would be helpful, but as ValleyGirl mentioned, the pressures of this fallen world continually work against them. If the eradication of poverty were completely possible, Jesus would not have said, "The poor you will have with you always."

If it were even completely possible in the Body of Christ, Paul would not have wrote "He who will not work, neither shall he eat," which indicates that there will be those who will need support even though they are working.

There will continue to be widows and the fatherless. As Jesus told us, sometimes a building falls on someone of no fault of his own.

There are a number of reasons why even a single man would have difficulty--soldiers suffering severe PTSD, for instance.

There is also a need for a lot more effort even within the Body of Christ than the mere utterance of biblical plattitudes. Something as simple as "having a stable career and income before one starts a family" has a far different impact today than it did 3000 years ago or even 50 years ago.

For instance, 3000 years ago, that meant a woman married at 15. Fifty years ago, it meant a woman married at 18. Today...are you talking 30 or 35? Are you talking both the man and the woman, or just the woman? What does that do to the sexual impact--will women remain celibate until they're 35? Will men?

Or are you really talking about the Body of Christ having an entirely different culture of its own for which the question has a different meaning from the surrounding culture?

The problem is: "You can't do just one thing."

oldwiseguy said:
Single people that are in 'poverty' are hardly noticed compared to families in poverty, whose much greater needs place large demands on our welfare system. Single, unemployed folks routinely find housing with friends and relatives with little inconvenience to either. Not so of course with families in need.

This bible admonition would mitigate much of these problems; that of having a stable career and income before one starts a family.

Proverbs 24:27

Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards (italics mine) build thine house.

Of course this also might require some behavioral changes as well in order to work well. Now I understand that some will run screaming from such advice because of it's source, but this solution has been highlighted by atheists also concerned with social welfare as well. Thoughts?

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2013

RDKirk said:
Are you proposing the entire nation (or world) adhering to biblical principles, or just the Body of Christ?

Certainly there is a host of scriptural principles that would be helpful, but as ValleyGirl mentioned, the pressures of this fallen world continually work against them. If the eradication of poverty were completely possible, Jesus would not have said, "The poor you will have with you always."

If it were even completely possible in the Body of Christ, Paul would not have wrote "He who will not work, neither shall he eat," which indicates that there will be those who will need support even though they are working.

There will continue to be widows and the fatherless. As Jesus told us, sometimes a building falls on someone of no fault of his own.

There are a number of reasons why even a single man would have difficulty--soldiers suffering severe PTSD, for instance.

There is also a need for a lot more effort even within the Body of Christ than the mere utterance of biblical plattitudes. Something as simple as "having a stable career and income before one starts a family" has a far different impact today than it did 3000 years ago or even 50 years ago.

For instance, 3000 years ago, that meant a woman married at 15. Fifty years ago, it meant a woman married at 18. Today...are you talking 30 or 35? Are you talking both the man and the woman, or just the woman? What does that do to the sexual impact--will women remain celibate until they're 35? Will men?

Or are you really talking about the Body of Christ having an entirely different culture of its own for which the question has a different meaning from the surrounding culture?

The problem is: "You can't do just one thing."

Actually you and I are in agreement, mostly.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2013

jayem said:
The Bible isn't the ONLY source of good economic advice, is it? Here are some of the Buddha's teachings on material success:

"The Buddha gave the following advice to a group of lay people as conducive to their happiness here and now:

(a) Energy and diligence
You have to be energetic and diligent in performing your job whether it is farming, a trade, business or a profession.

(b) Security
You have to protect your wealth.

(c) Good friendship
Associate with true friends, with wise and virtuous people who will help you and protect you, and guide you in Dhamma,

(d) Balanced livelihood
You should not be too bountiful, spending more than your means allow, and you should not be n-i-g-g-a-rdly, clinging to your wealth. Avoid these extremes and spend in proportion to your income.

Then he gave them advice for their long term benefit: as (a) faith and confidence in spiritual values, (b) generosity, (c) moral discipline and (d) wisdom.

Right Livelihood
The Buddha laid down four standards of right livelihood to which a lay follower should conform.

He should acquire wealth only by legal means.
He should acquire it without violence.
He should acquire it honestly.
He should require it in ways which do not harm others."

http://www.beyondthenet.net/misc/society.htm

That's quite sound advice also.

BTW: Does the Bible say anything about churches acquiring great wealth? What do you think Jesus would say about spectacles like these?

Buddha for the East, YHVH for the West. Same principles.

I'm guessing thousands are employed maintaining these buildings.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 18, 2013

Lethe said:
The bible was written in an era of subsistence farming.
The bible was written in an era where trade and specialization comprised a negligible portion of incomes.
The bible was written in an era when land was still unspoken for (squatting provided free land).

I actually don't think that this describes most of the world at that time, with the possible exception of the 'wilderness' areas, certainly not Israel.

While agriculture was the staple economy of many, the cities of those empires employed craftsmen at all skill levels. Sophisticated business and trade flourished, apart from 'subsistence farming'. These empires, including the nation of Israel, enjoyed high standards of living for most. In fact it is probable that most incomes were earned by those engaged in 'specialization' of some kind. The division of labor occurred early in our history.

Regarding land; while land within certain borders may have been initially available to all it was eventually privately owned as is evident by accounts of land sales both within Israel and in the records of those ancient empires. Babylon and Egypt both kept detailed records of business transactions, including the sale of land.

Even a cursory reading of the bible reveals a high level of economic sophistication and diversity in the OT period. And while Israel may have lacked the higher skilled workers they were wealthy enough to hire these artisans.

RDKirk · Jun 18, 2013

Diversity of labor had been firmly entrenched in the area of Israel even prior to the monarchy, as we see the Philistines noted for their monopoly on ironworking and particular other nations noted for specific national exports. For a nation to be noted for a specific resource or trade, that economic element, at least, had to be represented by a significant number of specialists (blacksmiths, mine workers, lumberjacks).

keith99 · Jun 18, 2013

Ken-1122 said:
I think the point of the OP is that you should get your finances together before you start having children. Too many people are having children that they cannot afford.

Ken

I thought this was obvious. But the thread up to this point shows either it was not or some people do not want to hear it.

I'd say it isn't limited to children however, it applies to all things. Get the finances in line (which includes a buffer for hard times) before making any commitments that will strain those finances.

Today we see people 'building' their house by borderline lying (or outright lying) on loan applications, with predictable results.

RDKirk · Jun 18, 2013

keith99 said:
I thought this was obvious. But the thread up to this point shows either it was not or some people do not want to hear it.

If it were that obvious, people wouldn't do otherwise.

But if it takes today, realistically, until age 30 or 35 to "have one's finances in order," what's that mean for conventional evangelical Christianity, which these days stresses celibacy until marriage (that would be fifteen or twenty years after puberty), and then children immediately afterward?

The secular world, of course, has an answer: "Celibacy? What celibacy?"

But if the Christian community expects something different, it must make greater changes in its culture. I personally suspect that waiting until one has one's finances fully in order has never been the norm. In the middle east today and most of the developing world, a young married man is often heavily dependent on his family for his vocation and for much overall support--the concept of the nuclear family has still not taken hold.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 1, 2016

Just read Acts, Matthew, Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms and Revelation , and Proverbs.

YHVH deals with everything generously. HIS WORD WORKS . man just messes up not listening.

yasic said:
If you are worried about people refusing the advice because you found it in the bible, why not just give them the advice, just in modern language and don't mention that you found it in the bible?

hahaha...... can't even get "christians" to read the bible and listen to God.....

yasic said:
You should then start by giving them the advice in plain English and having them themselves admit it to be good advice. Once they did so do the big reveal about it being in the bible. This should work much better at getting them to look for more advice in the bible (after all they just admitted it was good) then by starting with the bible-worded advice and having them not take it by their pre-conceived anti-biblical notions.

again..... people can see that 'christians' are predominately christian in name only, and don' come close to living .
See>>

OldWiseGuy said:
If only Christians heeded God's advice the world would change for the better overnight.

RDKirk said:
In the middle east today and most of the developing world, a young married man is often heavily dependent on his family for his vocation and for much overall support--the concept of the nuclear family has still not taken hold.

God Forbid the family should be like God says ?!
Reading Acts and Corinthians and Ephesians and Philippians
show a much different LIFE, living "in union" with JESUS in YHVH, living in union with one another ....
.

look up "in union" in OT and NT on biblegateway or other bible resource.

Who in the usa is living "in union" with anybody today !? Not even married couples ! !! ! !

OldWiseGuy · Jul 3, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Just read Acts, Matthew, Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms and Revelation , and Proverbs.

YHVH deals with everything generously. HIS WORD WORKS . man just messes up not listening.

hahaha...... can't even get "christians" to read the bible and listen to God.....

again..... people can see that 'christians' are predominately christian in name only, and don' come close to living .
See>>

God Forbid the family should be like God says ?!
Reading Acts and Corinthians and Ephesians and Philippians
show a much different LIFE, living "in union" with JESUS in YHVH, living in union with one another ....
.

look up "in union" in OT and NT on biblegateway or other bible resource.

Who in the usa is living "in union" with anybody today !? Not even married couples ! !! ! !

I got in a big argument with my sister over this. She mentioned a man who spent more time, and money, in the tavern than he did at home, and whose wife was about to divorce him because of it. I told her that as he is the head of the family the wife should gather up the kids and head for the tavern too, to keep the family together. My sister bailed out of the conversation before I got to the part where the wife and kids showing up might eventually shame this jerk into coming to his senses.

keith99 · Jul 3, 2016

RDKirk said:
If it were that obvious, people wouldn't do otherwise.

But if it takes today, realistically, until age 30 or 35 to "have one's finances in order," what's that mean for conventional evangelical Christianity, which these days stresses celibacy until marriage (that would be fifteen or twenty years after puberty), and then children immediately afterward?

The secular world, of course, has an answer: "Celibacy? What celibacy?"

But if the Christian community expects something different, it must make greater changes in its culture. I personally suspect that waiting until one has one's finances fully in order has never been the norm. In the middle east today and most of the developing world, a young married man is often heavily dependent on his family for his vocation and for much overall support--the concept of the nuclear family has still not taken hold.

Bolding mine.

Simply put it does not take until are 30-35 to have ones finances in order. In my family all the children of the most recent generation to become adults (save perhaps one) had their finances in order before 30. In order does not mean retirement assured and swimming in wealth. It means making more than one spends and ideally having debts paid off. But one can still have their finances in order so long as debt is being reduced and the end is in sight.

The problem is many will not delay any gratification. All income is spent. Their finances are nkot in order at 30, 35 or ever.

OldWiseGuy · Jul 4, 2016

keith99 said:
Bolding mine.

Simply put it does not take until are 30-35 to have ones finances in order. In my family all the children of the most recent generation to become adults (save perhaps one) had their finances in order before 30. In order does not mean retirement assured and swimming in wealth. It means making more than one spends and ideally having debts paid off. But one can still have their finances in order so long as debt is being reduced and the end is in sight.

The problem is many will not delay any gratification. All income is spent. Their finances are nkot in order at 30, 35 or ever.

My finances were always 'in order' even when I was managing debts that took years to repay.

You are correct about delayed gratification. One hallmark of most successful people is the ability to sacrifice expensive indulgences for the sake of growth and security.

quatona · Jul 4, 2016

OldWiseGuy said:
Single people that are in 'poverty' are hardly noticed compared to families in poverty, whose much greater needs place large demands on our welfare system. Single, unemployed folks routinely find housing with friends and relatives with little inconvenience to either. Not so of course with families in need.

This bible admonition would mitigate much of these problems; that of having a stable career and income before one starts a family.

Well, it doesn´t actually solve the problem of not having a stable career and income.

Of course this also might require some behavioral changes as well in order to work well. Now I understand that some will run screaming from such advice because of it's source,

No, you don´t understand. Not believing that biblical advice is necessarily good doesn´t equal beiieving it´s necessarily bad.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 4, 2016

OldWiseGuy said:
This bible admonition would mitigate much of these problems; that of having a stable career and income before one starts a family.

Yes, it is one of many applicable Scriptures.

ValleyGal said:
I'm just saying that poverty can strike anyone, whether people prepare their work before buying a home or not.

And it does strike more and more people every day.

OldWiseGuy said:
The thrust of my theme is considering seriously biblical principles that tend to enhance one's well-being.

Consider all you want. Get 10,000,000 people to consider all they want.
Like the philosophers sitting in thought and considering how many teeth does a horse have ? (a famous example in school many years ago).
Stay in thought and hash it out, consider it to death a thousand ways but loose.....
Then , ONE MAN went out and COUNTED the teeth.
Guess who knew how many teeth a horse has ?

OldWiseGuy said:
Because there is much more great advice in the bible that is sorely needed. Once credibility is established people might be less loathe to access it.

This statement is almost too obvious - since church goers reject the Bible, why should anyone else accept it ?

OldWiseGuy said:
If only Christians heeded God's advice the world would change for the better overnight.

Not quite.
It is said that whole cities were turned upside down when the apostles visited and the citizens started believing and being saved.(even though only a small portion of the citizens were saved, and the apostles or believers were subsequently driven out or into hiding).
But the whole world still hated the apostles and the believers, just as Jesus said they would be hated, on account of the whole world hates Jesus.

RDKirk said:
Are you proposing the entire nation (or world) adhering to biblical principles, or just the Body of Christ?
Certainly there is a host of scriptural principles that would be helpful, but as ValleyGirl mentioned, the pressures of this fallen world continually work against them. If the eradication of poverty were completely possible, Jesus would not have said, "The poor you will have with you always."

Since most churches don't adhere to biblical principles, do you expect any nation to, or the world to ?
Now, think real hard everybody... ... ... ...
when or where did the believers successfully do what Jesus says to do ,
and not one of them had a need unmet ?

(p.s. This has been repeated many times in history,
but governments and religious groups have likewise continually , over and over again each time, attacked the believers, either killing them, or driving them out )

Standing_Ultraviolet · Jul 4, 2016

OldWiseGuy said:
If someone wants to stay in Appalachia and play their banjo, that's their choice (I'm not disparaging banjo playing, I love bluegrass music).

People get stuck in impoverished areas because they can't easily leave, not because they want to sit around and "play their banjo". To leave, you first have to find the money to get an apartment or house somewhere else. Then, you have to quit a job that might be one of the few stable ones in the area and stake everything on the odds that you'll find comparable or better work in a different community (where, if you're young, you're going to be competing against people with significantly more education and experience). If you fail to do that or if you lose your job after moving, there's a good chance that you won't have any sort of familial safety net in the area that you've moved to. You'll have to move back to an impoverished area with your credit ruined by violating a lease agreement.

All of this still applies if you've been to college. Even with degrees in fields that are traditionally seen as "guaranteed employment" (like healthcare, engineering, etc.), you're still likely to have trouble if you live in a severely depressed area. A close cousin of mine has to commute for an hour and a half every day to work with a BSN. If you have a degree in anything else, you might even have a slightly harder time finding work than someone with only a high school diploma because of the risk that you'll leave a low paying job at the first opportunity.

OldWiseGuy · Jul 4, 2016

quatona said:
No, you don´t understand. Not believing that biblical advice is necessarily good doesn´t equal beiieving it´s necessarily bad.

The government thinks it's bad enough to be removed from our public institutions. Many in the public realm would remove it from our thought if they could.

quatona · Jul 4, 2016

OldWiseGuy said:
The government thinks it's bad enough to be removed from our public institutions. Many in the public realm would remove it from our thought if they could.

If (!) that is true, it still doesn´t support what you said, and it doesn´t contradict what I said. But if that chip on your shoulder comforts you....

OldWiseGuy · Jul 4, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Consider all you want. Get 10,000,000 people to consider all they want.
Like the philosophers sitting in thought and considering how many teeth does a horse have ? (a famous example in school many years ago).
Stay in thought and hash it out, consider it to death a thousand ways but loose.....
Then , ONE MAN went out and COUNTED the teeth.
Guess who knew how many teeth a horse has ?

Most biblical admonishments are directed at the individual (he, not they, who has an ear......). Even many preachers would be happy to get their weekly message into just one head or heart. Regarding counting teeth, I have successfully done everything that I suggest others do. The biggest problem that people have is that they will not commit themselves to a successful path as they don't want to suffer the discomforts and inconveniences.

Sadly the great twin virtues of patience and prudence aren't taught either in school or church, leaving most unprepared as they enter independence. Everyone is on probation it seems.

OldWiseGuy · Jul 4, 2016

Standing_Ultraviolet said:
People get stuck in impoverished areas because they can't easily leave, not because they want to sit around and "play their banjo". To leave, you first have to find the money to get an apartment or house somewhere else. Then, you have to quit a job that might be one of the few stable ones in the area and stake everything on the odds that you'll find comparable or better work in a different community (where, if you're young, you're going to be competing against people with significantly more education and experience). If you fail to do that or if you lose your job after moving, there's a good chance that you won't have any sort of familial safety net in the area that you've moved to. You'll have to move back to an impoverished area with your credit ruined by violating a lease agreement.

All of this still applies if you've been to college. Even with degrees in fields that are traditionally seen as "guaranteed employment" (like healthcare, engineering, etc.), you're still likely to have trouble if you live in a severely depressed area. A close cousin of mine has to commute for an hour and a half every day to work with a BSN. If you have a degree in anything else, you might even have a slightly harder time finding work than someone with only a high school diploma because of the risk that you'll leave a low paying job at the first opportunity.

You've painted a pretty grim picture. "Who then can be saved" (from poverty).

OldWiseGuy · Jul 4, 2016

quatona said:
If (!) that is true, it still doesn´t support what you said, and it doesn´t contradict what I said. But if that chip on your shoulder comforts you....

I think you're wandering off the path of the thread a bit.

Standing_Ultraviolet · Jul 4, 2016

OldWiseGuy said:
You've painted a pretty grim picture. "Who then can be saved" (from poverty).

Does the truth always have to be comfortable? Not all problems have easy or convenient solutions. Some people do escape the cycle of poverty (myself and the previously mentioned cousin included), but it's very difficult and likely to be impossible for many people. Solving the problem of poverty in developed countries requires a serious societal commitment, not simple advice and empty platitudes that make people feel good about the situation.

This bible principle the remedy for poverty?

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

sola dosis facit venenum

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Wake me when it's soup.

sola dosis facit venenum

Wake me when it's soup.

"God"? What do you mean??

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Dunkleosteus

Wake me when it's soup.

"God"? What do you mean??

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Dunkleosteus

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