Your thoughts On The Four Horsemen

Straightshot · Jun 23, 2016

Again you are taking verses that tell of national Israel at the time of the end and not the "church" .... for example Luke 21:35 is all about Israel during the tribulation and not today's true "church"

And Revelation 6:12-17 is about an unbelieving world, and not the Lord's true ecclesia

Will you be there in the tribulation and are you going to say the following?

Revelation
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

Do you think that the Lord is going to whip your but in the tribulation because you need to be purified?

Your statement about what you call the "rapture" is far from true and has no support from any scripture with regard for the true believer, Jew or Gentile .... I have all of the related scriptures on the matter which prove the event hands down

Do you think that you have to be "purified" so that you then can keep the law which is a salvation requirement in your opinion .... if so, you have much to learn about the Lord's salvation by His grace

However, I do agree that one can loose their salvation by willfully walking away from it, but this truth has nothing to do with your idea that you must be tested to prove your faith .... which is a falsehood

There are many who profess today, but are not saved and it is these that the Lord will reject and spew them into the tribulation [Revelation 3:9-15] .... but He will keep His true ecclesia from it because a true believer has kept the truth and is already saved [Revelation 3:10]

You refute this divide between and I would admonish you to correct your thinking on this issue

When I hear this kind of thing from you it tells me that your do not understand what you should understand .... and this may mean that you have not connected with the Lord's holy spirit

So think about these things for your own good and do not let others deceive you .... do not hand off your fate to the same .... you must seek it for yourself .... this is possible

dfw69 · Jun 24, 2016

keras said:
Thank you, Straightshot, we will see in the near future what the Lord will bring upon intransigent humanity.
As there is no rapture removal to heaven for anyone, the Lord's judgement will come upon everyone. Luke 21:35, Revelation 6:15-17
When it happens, we are told to stand firm in our faith and to call upon the Name of the Lord, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, and we will be saved.
This is another Once Saved Always Saved issue. I do not believe in OSAS, scripture says that many will fail this test. 1 Peter 4:17-19, 1 Corinthians 11:32, Hebrews 10:36-37, 2 Timothy 2:12,

Bible says God has not appointed us to his wrath but you say we are indeed appointed?

Wrath is appointed for unbelievers ...salvation is appointed for his followers in the faith

When Paul said "judgement begins in the house of God ".... He may have been referring to the judgement that was to come to the temple in Jerusalem which took place in 70 ad .. That those righteous (by the law) were scarcely saved ... That if God did not spare judgement upon the Jews what chance do sinners and ungodly have to escape judgement?....

Thus the need to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus ....for salvation from the wrath of God is only found in his sacrifice made for us

As for the rapture .. We are called to seek the things above where Christ seat is ....it is the Jews who await an earthly kingdom ... The church hope is for the things above ....not on earth ...we seek the kingdom of heaven ... Not the throne of David on earth to realign us again to the things of God as if we have fallen away from the faith and hope of salvation

keras · Jun 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
Bible says God has not appointed us to his wrath but you say we are indeed appointed?

No, what the bible clearly says is protection for all the true people of God. Isaiah 42:2, Psalms 91:1-16

dfw69 said:
As for the rapture .. We are called to seek the things above where Christ seat is ....it is the Jews who await an earthly kingdom ... The church hope is for the things above ....not on earth ...we seek the kingdom of heaven ... Not the throne of David on earth to realign us again to the things of God as if we have fallen away from the faith and hope of salvation

Only those who have the false hope of a rapture, think there is Two promises, Two People. This ides is totally contrary to New Testament teaching. Galatians 3:26-29, Revelation 5:9-10. Jews have the same chance as every other person on earth to accept the salvation of Jesus.
God has said He will restore the throne of David. Who are you to refute that? Hosea 3:5, Amos 9:11

Straightshot said:
When I hear this kind of thing from you it tells me that your do not understand what you should understand .... and this may mean that you have not connected with the Lord's holy spirit

When I see how you and many others have believed false teachings, I do not question your salvation, but I do wonder whether you will have the strength to stand firm in your faith when things happen that you didn't expect.

dfw69 · Jun 24, 2016

keras said:
No, what the bible clearly says is protection for all the true people of God. Isaiah 42:2, Psalms 91:1-16

What is a better way to protect his people than the salvation of the lord to rapture his people to his holy mountain in heaven? ... What is a better place to protect than the tabernacle of Gods house in heaven?

Paul did not say that though Keras .. He said God has not appointed us to wrath ... And we know an appointed day of wrath is coming for the disobedient against the gospel ....

....then he said we are appointed salvation ...it's an appointed feast day Keras ....and our salvation is to live with the father to behold him face to face in heaven and to behold the glory of Christ seated at the right hand of God in Gods throne in heaven

Only those who have the false hope of a rapture, think there is Two promises, Two People. This ides is totally contrary to New Testament teaching. Galatians 3:26-29, Revelation 5:9-10.

2 people?.... Let me ask you this... Do you believe Jews and Gentiles who come to know Jesus as the messiah and savior of thier souls are saved by faith? And that these are one citizenship, one people , one nation whose citizenship is in heaven? Philippians 3:20 Galatians 3:28.....this is one people ... One United group ...known as the body of Christ

Do you believe the rest of the world made up of Jews and gentile nations are lost and in darkness who have not yet come to know Christ as messiah and savior of thier souls and needing to repent and believe the good news for salvation?.... This is another people ...a separated group made up of all nations Jews and Gentiles

Jews have the same chance as every other person on earth to accept the salvation of Jesus.
God has said He will restore the throne of David. Who are you to refute that? Hosea 3:5, Amos 9:11

Of course Jews have a chance to unite with us to become one with us that we all may be one in the body of Christ .... And if indeed they become one with us in the faith then they too will behold God face to face to recieve the promise of eternity in the presence of God in heaven... They too will behold the rapture if they continue to seek heavenly things as we all must do ....we are called to wait upon Jesus to return to fulfill his promises to the body of Christ ... We are not called to seek earthy things

Jesus never promised to take us to the promise land of new Jerusalem on earth in John 14 in fact one day new Jerusalem will come down from heaven ... We are called to be Firstfruits of new Jerusalem in heaven Keras that is our hope

When I see how you and many others have believed false teachings, I do not question your salvation, but I do wonder whether you will have the strength to stand firm in your faith when things happen that you didn't expect.

You do realize that by your stand against the promises of the rapture that you may be going against the will of Jesus right? If indeed the rapture is true

Jesus said do not go after them who will say here is messiah ...but to continue to wait upon the lord promises ... Could it be that many who will flee to beula to save themselves will be a direct violation against Jesus who command to remain in the faith? That you can miss the rapture event because you sought refuge from earthly things?

Pray about it my friend...Phil 3:18-21 many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things

Luke17:37 · Jun 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
Bible says God has not appointed us to his wrath but you say we are indeed appointed?

God's wrath goes on people with the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11) (and on all whose destiny is the lake of fire). Of course we would not receive that because we will keep the fanot take the mark of the beast. But apostates surely will.

We are not exempt from Satan's wrath. That is what the Tribulation is characterized by:

Revelation 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7
7 It was granted to him [the beast of the sea] to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Revelation 13:14-15
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 16:6
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”

Revelation 17:5-6
5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

When you think about it, since God has plainly told us in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 that some Christians will remain alive until the resurrection and gathering at the coming of Christ, how could there be a problem with Christians living in the Tribulation? The 144,000 live in the Tribulation and they are protected from the plagues at least. I know you will say they are the Christians that missed the rapture, but the Bible doesn't say that. If God can require this group of believers to live in the Tribulation, then why not you and me? Do you think the Tribulation believers are subject to God's wrath? If so, why would you say that?

dfw69 said:
What is a better way to protect his people than the salvation of the lord to rapture his people to his holy mountain in heaven? ... What is a better place to protect than the tabernacle of Gods house in heaven?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

dfw69 · Jun 24, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
God's wrath goes on people with the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11) (and on all whose destiny is the lake of fire). Of course we would not receive that because we will keep the fanot take the mark of the beast. But apostates surely will.

We are not exempt from Satan's wrath. That is what the Tribulation is characterized by:

Revelation 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7
7 It was granted to him [the beast of the sea] to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Revelation 13:14-15
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 16:6
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”

Revelation 17:5-6
5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

When you think about it, since God has plainly told us in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 that some Christians will remain alive until the resurrection and gathering at the coming of Christ, how could there be a problem with Christians living in the Tribulation? The 144,000 live in the Tribulation and they are protected from the plagues at least. I know you will say they are the Christians that missed the rapture, but the Bible doesn't say that. If God can require this group of believers to live in the Tribulation, then why not you and me? Do you think the Tribulation believers are subject to God's wrath? If so, why would you say that?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

From what I gather from scriptures the rapture is the fulfillment of the promises to the church made up of Jews and Gentiles who put their faith in the salvation of Jesus who was a sin offering and a redeemer of the law of Moses by fulfilling the law for us all

Yet many will not accept his invitation to live in heaven for whatever reasons and will choose to remain on earth ... Then a false messianic will appear and the world will be forced to recieve the law which is a slap in the face of the works of Christ ... This false messianic age will kill or persecute all not willing to abide in the law of Moses nor wish to observe the feast of the lord

Because of the sins committed against the law which should have lead them to Jesus but instead lead them to a false messiah the wrath of God will be poured out ... For they have judge and condemned by the law thus reaping what they sowed ...

All who repent and turn back to Jesus will be saved in those days

Luke17:37 · Jun 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
From what I gather from scriptures the rapture is the fulfillment of the promises to the church made up of Jews and Gentiles who put their faith in the salvation of Jesus who was a sin offering and a redeemer of the law of Moses by fulfilling the law for us all

Yet many will not accept his invitation to live in heaven for whatever reasons and will choose to remain on earth ... Then a false messianic will appear and the world will be forced to recieve the law which is a slap in the face of the works of Christ ... This false messianic age will kill or persecute all not willing to abide in the law of Moses nor wish to observe the feast of the lord

Because of the sins committed against the law which should have lead them to Jesus but instead lead them to a false messiah the wrath of God will be poured out ... For they have judge and condemned by the law thus reaping what they sowed ...

All who repent and turn back to Jesus will be saved in those days

I'll ask my questions again:

Do you think the Tribulation believers are subject to God's wrath? If so, why would you say that?

If they are protected from God's wrath, how does that work? If God can protect His believers from His wrath during the Tribulation, than what need is there for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to protect Christians from God's wrath?

NightHawkeye · Jun 24, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I'll ask my questions again:

Do you think the Tribulation believers are subject to God's wrath? If so, why would you say that?

If they are protected from God's wrath, how does that work? If God can protect His believers from His wrath during the Tribulation, than what need is there for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to protect Christians from God's wrath?

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

keras · Jun 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
You do realize that by your stand against the promises of the rapture that you may be going against the will of Jesus right? If indeed the rapture is true

Let me firstly repeat the actual Words of Jesus:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 Father, I do not ask that You take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
John 7:33-34....I am going away.....and where I will be, you cannot come.

What then, is the Will of Jesus?
Will you stand firm in your faith when disaster strikes? Or will you renounce Jesus, because He didn't do what you have mistakenly believed He would?
I do believe the prophecy of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. It describes how Jesus will gather His own people to Him on earth, at His glorious Return. Matthew 24:31 parallels it.

Re: Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven and we eagerly await a Savior from there....
Huh? How's that again?
We are citizens of heaven, but we actually live on earth and we eagerly await the Return of Jesus. When Jesus Returns He will bring our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27
So the facts are: we true Christian believers are enrolled in heaven, in the Book of Life, Malachi 3:16-17, Revelation 20:12, but earth is our place and we never leave it.

dfw69 · Jun 24, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I'll ask my questions again:

Do you think the Tribulation believers are subject to God's wrath? If so, why would you say that?

I'm having difficulty answering your questions without laying out some form of a platform... What are tribulation saints from your point of view?...

Perhaps tribulation believers were not believers at first but became believers when they saw these things fulfilled ...as many will see the signs and repent and cry out to God in those days

I believe after the rapture happens the false messianic age will come in to play ....an age where all religions are persecuted against and only Torah will stand ...so this is a form of tribulation for all religions ... Mystery Babylon at its finest hour

But the tribulations spoken of during the last 7 years are different tribulations in itself ... The rise of the final antichrist over the 10 kingdoms will cause persecutions or tribulations for the first 3 and 1/2 years of the final days

and then rise of a false god over the temple is a great tribulation for the Jewish people ...when the abomination of desolation is put in place

So I see 3 different future tribulations in the future

1) Tribulation from mystery Babylon which is a false messianic age yet to come

2)Tribulation from the rise of the final antichrist over the 10 kingdoms in the first part of the 3 1/2 years

3) Tribulation over the fate of Israel who are coming to know Jesus as lord and savior in the final 3 1/2 years during the abomination of desolation which is a golem placed in the temple

If they are protected from God's wrath, how does that work? If God can protect His believers from His wrath during the Tribulation, than what need is there for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to protect Christians from God's wrath?

There are appointed feast days for wheat barley and grapes and at different dates ...the point of the rapture is to fulfill the vow Jesus made to his followers to behold his glory to meet the father face to face ...to live in new Jerusalem a city built in heaven
.. That is the appointment for his church ... In which most likely will take place during the spring feast ... Jesus bodily resurrection and Ascension foreshadows the rapture event to come

The appointed wrath of God is another time appointed for those that fight against his gospel through whatever means which will take place most likely during the fall feast ... Revelation mentions the harvesting of grapes which occurs during the fall feast

dfw69 · Jun 24, 2016

keras said:
Let me firstly repeat the actual Words of Jesus:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven except the One who came from heaven.

John 17:15 Father, I do not ask that You take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
John 7:33-34....I am going away.....and where I will be, you cannot come.

What then, is the Will of Jesus?

Indeed the son of God was the only one who came from above and fulfilled his prophecy to return to the father, being the Firstfruits of many brethren who will follow him up when he returns to fulfill the promises in us

Indeed his disciples could not yet follow his ascension because they were commission to go and preach the good news but one day they too will be resurrected to recieve the promises of an heavenly kingdom

Indeed Jesus prayed that his disciples would not fall away to follow the evil one ...but continue to remain in the faith while yet still on this earth until the promises are fulfilled

Jesus will is to hold fast the gospel and keep the faith until he returns to fulfill his promises of eternal life with the father

Will you stand firm in your faith when disaster strikes? Or will you renounce Jesus, because He didn't do what you have mistakenly believed He would?

I will keep my faith in his righteousness for me if the rapture does not happen within my lifetime ... Knowing that when the rapture does take place I too will be a part of it for my faith in him

I do believe the prophecy of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. It describes how Jesus will gather His own people to Him on earth, at His glorious Return. Matthew 24:31 parallels it.

Re: Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven and we eagerly await a Savior from there....
Huh? How's that again?
We are citizens of heaven, but we actually live on earth and we eagerly await the Return of Jesus. When Jesus Returns He will bring our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27
So the facts are: we true Christian believers are enrolled in heaven, in the Book of Life, Malachi 3:16-17, Revelation 20:12, but earth is our place and we never leave it.

Will see my friend peace

Luke17:37 · Jun 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
I'm having difficulty answering your questions without laying out some form of a platform... What are tribulation saints from your point of view?...

Perhaps tribulation believers were not believers at first but became believers when they saw these things fulfilled ...as many will see the signs and repent and cry out to God in those days

I believe after the rapture happens the false messianic age will come in to play ....an age where all religions are persecuted against and only Torah will stand ...so this is a form of tribulation for all religions ... Mystery Babylon at its finest hour

But the tribulations spoken of during the last 7 years are different tribulations in itself ... The rise of the final antichrist over the 10 kingdoms will cause persecutions or tribulations for the first 3 and 1/2 years of the final days

and then rise of a false god over the temple is a great tribulation for the Jewish people ...when the abomination of desolation is put in place

So I see 3 different future tribulations in the future

1) Tribulation from mystery Babylon which is a false messianic age yet to come

2)Tribulation from the rise of the final antichrist over the 10 kingdoms in the first part of the 3 1/2 years

3) Tribulation over the fate of Israel who are coming to know Jesus as lord and savior in the final 3 1/2 years during the abomination of desolation which is a golem placed in the temple

There are appointed feast days for wheat barley and grapes and at different dates ...the point of the rapture is to fulfill the vow Jesus made to his followers to behold his glory to meet the father face to face ...to live in new Jerusalem a city built in heaven
.. That is the appointment for his church ... In which most likely will take place during the spring feast ... Jesus bodily resurrection and Ascension foreshadows the rapture event to come

The appointed wrath of God is another time appointed for those that fight against his gospel through whatever means which will take place most likely during the fall feast ... Revelation mentions the harvesting of grapes which occurs during the fall feast

If God can protect some of the Christians in the Tribulation from the wrath of God and allow them to survive the Tribulation (which, He can, per many Scriptures, e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:17), why would there need to be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to protect the Church from wrath?

dfw69 · Jun 24, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
If God can protect some of the Christians in the Tribulation from the wrath of God and allow them to survive the Tribulation (which, He can, per many Scriptures, e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:17), why would there need to be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to protect the Church from wrath?

Because the church is not appointed wrath sis because the fulfillment of its promises take place before the tribulation and it's benefits before the wrath of God ... It's gods appointed times not mine

Why did God choose to save Israel from Egypt during the spring feast days ? To perform miracles to spit the waters so they may cross over to be free from bondages of this world to take them to his holy mountain to reveal himself to them to give them his laws?....

It's gods calling for us in the same way to call us out of this world to spit heaven and earth to take us to his holy mountain to give us the promise land of new Jerusalem in heaven to make us sons of God and behold our father face to face

God wishes to show the world his love for us for our faith in his son

Luke17:37 · Jun 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
Because the church is not appointed wrath sis because the fulfillment of its promises take place before the tribulation and it's benefits before the wrath of God ... It's gods appointed times not mine

Why did God choose to save Israel from Egypt during the spring feast days ? To perform miracles to spit the waters so they may cross over to be free from bondages of this world to take them to his holy mountain to reveal himself to them to give them his laws?....

It's gods calling for us in the same way to call us out of this world to spit heaven and earth to take us to his holy mountain to give us the promise land of new Jerusalem in heaven to make us sons of God and behold our father face to face

God wishes to show the world his love for us for our faith in his son

But why do you maintain that living in the Tribulation would mean God's wrath against the Church when He is clearly able to protect the Tribulation saints from His wrath? The Tribulation is characterized by Satan's wrath against the Church (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 13:15 are just a few verses), whereas God's wrath goes on the people with the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11). A Christian does not take that.

dfw69 · Jun 24, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
But why do you maintain that living in the Tribulation would mean God's wrath against the Church when He is clearly able to protect the Tribulation saints from His wrath? The Tribulation is characterized by Satan's wrath against the Church (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 13:15 are just a few verses), whereas God's wrath goes on the people with the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11). A Christian does not take that.

It is during the tribulation that gods wrath is poured which is an appointed time and the time for Israel salvation not the church which is another appointed time I can't stress that enough...

I believe the main body of the church is raptured before the events of revelation happen ..but I also believe one particular church will remain on earth which is the church of laodicea who will be tried and judged for judgements committed against God

What is it that you believe conserning the end times? ... Aside from no rapture to heaven which I get that .. You believe the church will remain on earth and be tried in what way? Why does the church need to be tried and purified into what outcome?.... You believe the church will have to rely on gods protection?.... From his wrath? From satans beast which is what? Where and what will consist of gods protection?

keras · Jun 25, 2016

dfw69 said:
Where and what will consist of gods protection?

Revelation 12:6
The Christians of Revelation 12:17, are those who 'violated the Covenant', Daniel 11:32, the ones taken to a place of safety on earth are those who 'kept their faith in God'. Zechariah 14:2 also describes these two groups.
These prophesies prove there is no rapture removal to heaven for anyone alive at that time, or at Jesus' Return, when those remaining will be gathered to Him, in Jerusalem.

Your refutations of the 3 verses in #371, are invalid because:
1/ Jesus is talking to Nicodemus of earthly things and that He is the heavenly man, nothing about others following Him.
2-3/ to say they apply only to the disciples, means that if everything Jesus said could be applied just to them, how do we know what applies to us?

Re: eternal life with the Father, that will happen after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-4 ...God will come down and dwell with mankind; on earth

Straightshot · Jun 25, 2016

"Perhaps tribulation believers were not believers at first but became believers when they saw these things fulfilled ...as many will see the signs and repent and cry out to God in those days"

My comment

Those of His true ecclesia will be made immortal just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world of intransigent humanity [Revelation 3:10] .... there will be no believers left on the earth after the keeping .... all will be in unbelief

However, this does not mean that He will withdraw His offer of salvation during the period [Revelation 6:2; 3:15-19]

The first mortals to turn and believe will be of the nation of Israel and these will preach His word by which others of Israel and some of the Gentile nations will be saved [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

Most of these will be martyred for their faith [Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7; 14:13; 20:1-4]

Some will survive the tribulation period and these mortals will be gathered by the Lord at the end of the days of the tribulation ..... first of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... and then of the Gentiles [Matthew 25:31-46]

Those mortals found believing [the sheep] will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth .... those found in unbelief will be rejected [the goats]

Luke17:37 · Jun 25, 2016

dfw69 said:
It is during the tribulation that gods wrath is poured which is an appointed time and the time for Israel salvation not the church which is another appointed time I can't stress that enough...

But see the thing is, the Tribulation is characterized by Satan's wrath against God's people. Sure, there are the bowls of wrath, but there's also the warning, "Come out of her [Mystery Babylon the Great], my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). The wrath specifically goes on people with the mark of the beast (bowl 1) and over the kingdom of the beast (bowl 5). And Babylon's destruction is at the seventh bowl (Revelation 16:19). Since God is able to keep some of His children from being under His wrath even then (e.g., they don't live in Babylon or they have left it behind), there's no reason why God needs to usher us out before the Tribulation.

You're clinging to a theory that you like. I understand that. But I am convinced it's a pleasing fantasy (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

dfw69 said:
I believe the main body of the church is raptured before the events of revelation happen ..but I also believe one particular church will remain on earth which is the church of laodicea who will be tried and judged for judgements committed against God

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage is talking about the whole Church, dead and alive, when the Lord comes. There are no exceptions for Laodiceans. But it's about the resurrection - gathering at Jesus' coming, which happens to be at the end of the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), not before.

dfw69 said:
What is it that you believe conserning the end times? ... Aside from no rapture to heaven which I get that .. You believe the church will remain on earth and be tried in what way? Why does the church need to be tried and purified into what outcome?.... You believe the church will have to rely on gods protection?.... From his wrath? From satans beast which is what? Where and what will consist of gods protection?

The church at Laodicea is just one church with issues. But since you mentioned it, let's look:

Revelation 3:14-22
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

One way to get the white garments is to be tested by severe persecution unto death. I believe most of the Church, both Jewish and Gentile, will be killed by the kingdom of the beast - the wrath of Satan against the Church. But God protects a few so that there are some survivors to be gathered when He returns after the Tribulation. For example, He seals 144,000 Israelites to protect them from plagues. Revelation 12 shows that the Lord protects the woman in the wilderness and thwarts the dragon's attempts to kill them. Since the dragon can't kill them, he turns his attention to the rest of the followers of Jesus.

I want to be faithful unto death. Many who claim the name of Christ won't be.

dfw69 · Jun 25, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
But see the thing is, the Tribulation is characterized by Satan's wrath against God's people. Sure, there are the bowls of wrath, but there's also the warning, "Come out of her [Mystery Babylon the Great], my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). The wrath specifically goes on people with the mark of the beast (bowl 1) and over the kingdom of the beast (bowl 5). And Babylon's destruction is at the seventh bowl (Revelation 16:19). Since God is able to keep some of His children from being under His wrath even then (e.g., they don't live in Babylon or they have left it behind), there's no reason why God needs to usher us out before the Tribulation.

You're clinging to a theory that you like. I understand that. But I am convinced it's a pleasing fantasy (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage is talking about the whole Church, dead and alive, when the Lord comes. There are no exceptions for Laodiceans. But it's about the resurrection - gathering at Jesus' coming, which happens to be at the end of the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), not before.

The church at Laodicea is just one church with issues. But since you mentioned it, let's look:

Revelation 3:14-22
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

One way to get the white garments is to be tested by severe persecution unto death. I believe most of the Church, both Jewish and Gentile, will be killed by the kingdom of the beast - the wrath of Satan against the Church. But God protects a few so that there are some survivors to be gathered when He returns after the Tribulation. For example, He seals 144,000 Israelites to protect them from plagues. Revelation 12 shows that the Lord protects the woman in the wilderness and thwarts the dragon's attempts to kill them. Since the dragon can't kill them, he turns his attention to the rest of the followers of Jesus.

I want to be faithful unto death. Many who claim the name of Christ won't be.

Will see sis peace

Straightshot · Jun 25, 2016

"But see the thing is, the Tribulation is characterized by Satan's wrath against God's people."

It will be all of the Lord's wrath against a world of unbelief that refuses to believe the truth about Him
[Psalms 2; Jude 1; Revelation 6:12-17]

All of the judgments will be from the Lord .... even Satan's casting to the earth [Revelation 12:12]

.... not Satan's wrath .... this devil will be the Lord's dupe who will be used and then trashed [Revelation 17:8-18; Revelation 20:1-3; 20:10]

The idea that the tribulation will engineered by Satan is the construction of post-tribulation theology

This ruse has so many flaws that it is easily refuted including the denial of the Lord's promise to keep His true ecclesia from His unprecedented wrath and judgment .... a lie of the devil is in the workings of this perverted theology

Don't be deceived by those you are listening to

Many profess Christianity, but are not really saved and if living at the time, these will enter the tribulation unsaved [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:9-15] .... a dangerous place to be

Satan will be there and out to kill all humans in one way or another .... he hates the idea of human immortality

So he will be after as many unsaved in the tribulation period that he can destroy in order to prevent them from their salvation

Your thoughts On The Four Horsemen

Member

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Well-Known Member

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Well-Known Member

Work-in-progress

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Well-Known Member

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Well-Known Member

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Member

Well-Known Member

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age

Member

Similar threads