Dare We Hope ‘That All Men Be Saved’?

Martinius

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we need to agree to differ? I thought this was a liberal forum were we could talk about different kinds of ideas and doubts and thoughts where we can question things and delve deeper into things
Excuse my interjection. Yes, this forum is a place to question and discuss. That is exactly what has been occurring in this thread. Colin is pointing out, quite validly, that the two of you are not in agreement, and seem unlikely to ever agree. The purpose of a discussion thread is not for one person or side to triumph over the other. It is not a court of law. There comes a point when it may be futile to continue, so you agree to disagree. You are free to continue posting to this thread, but you may find fewer and fewer people remaining in the conversation.

Carry on.
 
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Rhamiel

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I would tend to agree. And, let me make myself clear, just in case: I do not endorse Luther's view.

I think that the main disagreements on Hell that we have are based on two mutually exclusive view points. Possibly more, but only two seem to be showing up in this forum. These two mutually exclusive viewpoints (That Hell is Immoral or that Hell is Just) hinge on two views concerning the nature of sin and how it affects God:

One is that sin is a finite offense, temporal, and since it is finite it is undeserving of infinite punishment. That's one view of sin.
The second, differing view is that sin is infinite because, since God is an infinite being, all offenses against Him are infinitely offensive.

The first view of sin would seem to be confirmed by the way that we Catholics handle sins in the confessional. The penances that we are assigned after our confessions are temporal punishments. A temporal punishment for a temporal sin. Makes sense.

The second position is one which I am inadequately capable of defending.

God is not a person like us--in fact God isn't even a person. He has no existence because everything that exists can cease to exist; furthermore, everything that exists is made from something--either matter or energy, or dark matter or dark energy--but God is not made out of anything. He has no components and is beyond our ability to imagine--all of our imaginings of God are effectively false idols--because God is in reality beyond those imaginings.

So when it comes to trying to figure out what it is that God wants or what he's going to do, I tend to just do the best that I can and hope for the best.

why do you say the two views are mutually exclusive?

the Catechism of the Catholic Church points out that acts of Penance does not cover the Eternal consequences of sin, but rather the temporal consequences of sin

or another way to look it is that Sin is an offence against God, that is infinite
but sin also harms ourself and those around us, so those effects are not infinite

this also helps explain the belief in Purgatory
Purgatory does not cover the Eternal consequences of sin, but it does cover the temporal consequences

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85
 
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FrancesJames

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why do you say the two views are mutually exclusive?

Because infinity and finiteness are mutually exclusive concepts. A sin cannot be both finite and infinite. But now I see you're talking about a double set of consequences.

the Catechism of the Catholic Church points out that acts of Penance does not cover the Eternal consequences of sin, but rather the temporal consequences of sin

Oh, I see what you're saying. You're suggesting that the absolution received from the priest is what helps us wipe away the eternal consequences but that penance undoes the temporal. Interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure it washes with me.

I think probably the best and less confusing way to think of Hell and punishment is to not think of it in terms for where God sends us but of where we send ourselves. Heaven and Hell are within us in both a literal and figurative sense. In that, we may be choosing to do the something wrong that ends up doing us harm. In other words, Hell is a natural consequence for an action. If a student doesn't turn in a paper to me on time, it's not my fault for failing him, it's his fault for not doing the work. God is not responsible for Hell and its tortures, we are. We torture ourselves.
 
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Rhamiel

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Colin is pointing out, quite validly, that the two of you are not in agreement,
accurate
and seem unlikely to ever agree
that remains to be seen, we will not know what level of agreement can exist until ideas are fully explored
The purpose of a discussion thread is not for one person or side to triumph over the other.
I am just seeking deeper understanding so that we may both grow in wisdom
You are free to continue posting to this thread, but you may find fewer and fewer people remaining in the conversation.
oh I am not worried about that, this is the Liberal Catholic forum, full of people who are not held back by preconceived notions, who can cast off prejudices and cultural norms and delve into the hard work of seeking the Truth
surely Liberals are open to all kinds of new and challenging ideas that might be outside their comfort zone
 
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Rhamiel

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I think probably the best and less confusing way to think of Hell and punishment is to not think of it in terms for where God sends us but of where we send ourselves. Heaven and Hell are within us in both a literal and figurative sense.
not to ignore the rest of your post, you make a lot of good points, this just caught my attention :)


Paradise Lost: Book 4
The hell within him; for within him hell
He brings, and round about him, nor from hell
One step, no more than from himself, can fly,
By change of place

http://giphy.com/gifs/loop-xXvIkTu08XQLC


oh btw, yeah you are right about "hell is a place we send ourselves"
that is a very good way to put it
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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The purpose of a discussion thread is not for one person or side to triumph over the other. It is not a court of law.
Yet a lot of people seem to think it is. I'm hoping we don't get that competitive "I win, you lose" mentality on TLT. Stalemate is often the best way to conclude.
 
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Martinius

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oh I am not worried about that, this is the Liberal Catholic forum, full of people who are not held back by preconceived notions, who can cast off prejudices and cultural norms and delve into the hard work of seeking the Truth
surely Liberals are open to all kinds of new and challenging ideas that might be outside their comfort zone
You have a penchant for sarcasm. So do I.

I am not saying you should stop, I was indicating that some people may not have any more to say on a subject, so will stop posting. Sometimes that is because they get tired of arguing, or of hearing the same arguments repeated. Or because they have a life outside of CF and don't want to spend hours beating the same dead horse. When it is obvious that two people see something differently, and are unlikely to change their views, it seems best to state your points and move on. Agree to disagree.

For me, I have no horse in this race, and it seems pointless to discuss something that we cannot find a definitive answer for, and I wonder if it really matters. But don't let me stop you from arguing to infinity, or at least to the moment when one or both of you learn the truth.
 
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Rhamiel

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You have a penchant for sarcasm. So do I.

well I put it in a humorous way, or at least I hope it was somewhat entertaining

but I was also being honest

I do not really understand this forum
but I love the conversation here, and I love the free exchange of ideas

but what I said does kind of stand, to be liberal is to be open minded, if we are not going to be open minded I am not sure the purpose of this forum

Sometimes that is because they get tired of arguing
I
I do not want that :(
I do not want to just wear people down
I really am trying to have a deeper understanding of this issue

sorry if I have offended anyone
 
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One Voice Among Many1

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Yet a lot of people seem to think it is. I'm hoping we don't get that competitive "I win, you lose" mentality on TLT. Stalemate is often the best way to conclude.

I think many of us who have come to this forum, seeking refuge and solace, are sick and tired of arguing or having our political opinions repeatedly berated.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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I think many of us who have come to this forum, seeking refuge and solace, are sick and tired of arguing or having our political opinions repeatedly berated.
Looks like we might have an avalanche of flamers arriving on our doorstep soon. Hope not though.
 
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Rhamiel

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Looks like we might have an avalanche of flamers arriving on our doorstep soon. Hope not though.

yeah trolls tend to come when a place gets more popular

you will get trolls, you will get people making threads that are not in keeping with the tone of the forum,

you will get people from outside the target demographic who ask challenging questions, people who have been hurt by members of the group and are asking hard questions
people from different cultures (not Western, not Liberal, not Catholic, maybe not all three) and they will not understand what you mean sometimes because they have a totally different way of looking at things

people have noted that sometimes I am sarcastic
but I am not being sarcastic now
you have a lot of amazing people posting here, people who understand their faith and understand themselves
people who have been hurt and can relate with those who are suffering
people from all walks of life, people who are extremely well educated and well read, people with all kinds of life experiences
and I think this forum is more then capable handling a few trolls :)
 
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Colin

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Excuse my interjection. Yes, this forum is a place to question and discuss. That is exactly what has been occurring in this thread. Colin is pointing out, quite validly, that the two of you are not in agreement, and seem unlikely to ever agree. The purpose of a discussion thread is not for one person or side to triumph over the other. .

Thanks , Martinius , for understanding what I was saying .
 
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Colin

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Maybe he just likes the prayer.

Thanks for grasping what I was doing .

I was not using the Fatima events to prove or disprove anything .

I was simply using the words of a prayer prayed by many Catholics as part of the discussion .
 
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