Apparent Age & The Incredible Foreknowledge of God

Aman777

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No. Your interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2 is still ridiculous.

Then WHY does no one show me my error? My view agrees with Scripture Science and History and NO one can refute it in ANY way. Many have tried scientifically but failed miserably. A few have tried Scripturally but NONE ever has. No one can refute the historic map of the Fertile Crescent which shows that Noah brought Human civilization to our planet of Apes.

Few agree, but NO one refutes. Would you like to try? Or will you try to convince us that you already have, long ago? Show us YOUR truth which is above God's. God Bless you
 
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PsychoSarah

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I was not aware of that. It certainly isn't the case in the US. I've almost never seen anything by a Hindu creationist. Mostly what I have seen are fundamentalist Christians with the odd Muslim thrown in, like Harun Yaha.
nope, worldwide, most creationists are, in fact, Hindu.
 
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-57

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No, it doesn't. The "opisthotonic posture" can be caused by many things, only one of which is death by drowning. And even if the dinosaur in question did drown, that is in no way evidence for a global Flood as described in the Bible.

Next!

Yes, but there are many more....such as a fish giving birth fossil and even a fish eating another fish fossil.....they attest to rapid burial.
 
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lucaspa

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God Created this world with apparent age.


When doing so, He possessed incredible foreknowledge of what billions of years of natural processes interacting with materials would bring about.

God Created this world a few thousand years ago, but made it look naturally produced when made, like Eve.

If a person was able to go up to Eve the day after she was made and ask her how old she was they would think she was lying to them when she said one day. Her appearance would not represent one day.

In making a world look as if it was naturally made over billions of years, God foreknew an incredible amount of intricate details, as if they naturally happened.

You've said quite a bit about God's knowledge. But you haven't addressed the overwhelming problem of God's honesty and integrity. What you are saying is that God is an incredibly smart and accomplished liar!


Isaiah 55:7,8
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Do you really want God's thoughts to be those of a liar? Especially after telling us not to lie? 9th Commandment, in case you've forgotten.

Creationists have tried this before. In 1844 a pamphlet entitled Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation, espousing an evolutionary viewpoint, was published. In response Philip Gosse, a minister in the Fundamentalist group called the Plymouth Brethren, wrote Oomphalos, published in 1857. In it Gosse made the first written argument that creation only LOOKS old. You've just made that argument again. In it, Gosse even argued that Adam and Eve had navels because that is what one would expect in God-created creatures. And here you are, saying Eve looks "old".
Gosse expected Oomphalos to be attacked by scientists. What he should have expected, but didn't, was the denunciation by the religious community. Asked to write a review of Oomphalos, his friend Charles Kingsley, a minister and author of Westward Ho! refused and wrote the following letter to Gosse.
"You have given the 'vestiges of creation theory' [the pamphlet discussed above] the best shove forward which it has ever had. I have a special dislike for that book; but, honestly, I felt my heart melting towards it as I read Oomphalos. Shall I tell you the truth? It is best. Your book is the first that ever made me doubt the doctrine of absolute creation, and I fear it will make hundreds do so. Your book tends to prove this - that if we accept the fact of absolute creation, God becomes God-the-Sometime-Deceiver. I do not mean merely in the case of fossils which pretend to be the bones of dead animals; but in ...your newly created Adam's navel, you make God tell a lie. It is not my reason, but my conscience which revolts here ... I cannot ...believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind. To this painful dilemma you have brought me, and will, I fear, bring hundreds. It will not make me throw away my Bible. I trust and hope. I know in whom I have believed, and can trust Him to bring my faith safe through this puzzle, as He has through others; but for the young I do fear. I would not for a thousand pounds put your book into my children's hands." Garret Hardin, ""Scientific Creationism'" - Marketing Deception as Truth" in Science and Creationism edited by Ashley Montagu, 1982.

Speaking now as a Christian, I can't tell you how much I agree with Kingsley. Heissonear, what you have proposed is one of the most dangerous things to God anyone has ever proposed. If we accept your argument, you have destroyed Christianity in your quest to preserve creationism. Or perhaps your quest to preserve a literal Bible. You've thrown God under the bus. Think for a minute. We require God to be honest and truthful at all times. We must trust God when He tells us things we cannot check for ourselves: that His was the power behind Jesus' miracles, that He raised Jesus from the dead, that He will forgive our sins, that He will grant us eternal life. But if God lies about anything, then everything is suspect.

So, Heissonear, is a young earth, creationism, and a literal Bible so valuable to you that you will create a god that we can't worship? A god that is indistinguishable from Satan in his ability to tell the truth?
 
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Astrophile

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Creationists have tried this before. In 1844 a pamphlet entitled Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation, espousing an evolutionary viewpoint, was published. In response Philip Gosse, a minister in the Fundamentalist group called the Plymouth Brethren, wrote Oomphalos, published in 1857.

Two corrections. First, Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation was not a pamphlet; it was a 390-page book. (This was the first edition; later editions had different numbers of pages.) Second, the title of Gosse's book was Omphalos (from the Greek word for 'navel'), not Oomphalos.
 
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Aman777

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You've said quite a bit about God's knowledge. But you haven't addressed the overwhelming problem of God's honesty and integrity. What you are saying is that God is an incredibly smart and accomplished liar!



Do you really want God's thoughts to be those of a liar? Especially after telling us not to lie? 9th Commandment, in case you've forgotten.

Creationists have tried this before. In 1844 a pamphlet entitled Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation, espousing an evolutionary viewpoint, was published. In response Philip Gosse, a minister in the Fundamentalist group called the Plymouth Brethren, wrote Oomphalos, published in 1857. In it Gosse made the first written argument that creation only LOOKS old. You've just made that argument again. In it, Gosse even argued that Adam and Eve had navels because that is what one would expect in God-created creatures. And here you are, saying Eve looks "old".
Gosse expected Oomphalos to be attacked by scientists. What he should have expected, but didn't, was the denunciation by the religious community. Asked to write a review of Oomphalos, his friend Charles Kingsley, a minister and author of Westward Ho! refused and wrote the following letter to Gosse.
"You have given the 'vestiges of creation theory' [the pamphlet discussed above] the best shove forward which it has ever had. I have a special dislike for that book; but, honestly, I felt my heart melting towards it as I read Oomphalos. Shall I tell you the truth? It is best. Your book is the first that ever made me doubt the doctrine of absolute creation, and I fear it will make hundreds do so. Your book tends to prove this - that if we accept the fact of absolute creation, God becomes God-the-Sometime-Deceiver. I do not mean merely in the case of fossils which pretend to be the bones of dead animals; but in ...your newly created Adam's navel, you make God tell a lie. It is not my reason, but my conscience which revolts here ... I cannot ...believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind. To this painful dilemma you have brought me, and will, I fear, bring hundreds. It will not make me throw away my Bible. I trust and hope. I know in whom I have believed, and can trust Him to bring my faith safe through this puzzle, as He has through others; but for the young I do fear. I would not for a thousand pounds put your book into my children's hands." Garret Hardin, ""Scientific Creationism'" - Marketing Deception as Truth" in Science and Creationism edited by Ashley Montagu, 1982.

Speaking now as a Christian, I can't tell you how much I agree with Kingsley. Heissonear, what you have proposed is one of the most dangerous things to God anyone has ever proposed. If we accept your argument, you have destroyed Christianity in your quest to preserve creationism. Or perhaps your quest to preserve a literal Bible. You've thrown God under the bus. Think for a minute. We require God to be honest and truthful at all times. We must trust God when He tells us things we cannot check for ourselves: that His was the power behind Jesus' miracles, that He raised Jesus from the dead, that He will forgive our sins, that He will grant us eternal life. But if God lies about anything, then everything is suspect.

So, Heissonear, is a young earth, creationism, and a literal Bible so valuable to you that you will create a god that we can't worship? A god that is indistinguishable from Satan in his ability to tell the truth?

Great post. Do you know if UWolf is still around? God bless you
 
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PsychoSarah

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Yes, but there are many more....such as a fish giving birth fossil and even a fish eating another fish fossil.....they attest to rapid burial.
Yes, they do. But, that doesn't mean a GLOBAL flood did it. Furthermore, there are other conditions besides rapid burial that can lead to fossilization.
 
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-57

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Yes, they do. But, that doesn't mean a GLOBAL flood did it. Furthermore, there are other conditions besides rapid burial that can lead to fossilization.

The global flood would have started out as many small floods....growing into a world wide flood.
 
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Aman777

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The global flood would have started out as many small floods....growing into a world wide flood.

Not so. It began as rain when the windows of the firmament were opened:

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

en 7:17 ¶ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

It took 40 days and nights of rain, which came from the windows of the firmament being opened on Adam's firmament.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, (covered) and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

The Ark was now on the top of the water since the ground was covered with the flood.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed (covered) exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; (cover) and the mountains were covered.

Adam's Earth was only 22.5 feet high. The mountains were covered when the water was only 15 cubits deep. Adam's Earth was very small. It had only 4 Rivers which came from ONE River in the Garden of Eden Gen 2:10 and split into four other rivers. The above verses are speaking of another Earth and NOT the present one. Our Earth has NEVER suffered a Global Flood. Amen?
 
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-57

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Not so. It began as rain when the windows of the firmament were opened:

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

en 7:17 ¶ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

It took 40 days and nights of rain, which came from the windows of the firmament being opened on Adam's firmament.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, (covered) and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

The Ark was now on the top of the water since the ground was covered with the flood.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed (covered) exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; (cover) and the mountains were covered.

Adam's Earth was only 22.5 feet high. The mountains were covered when the water was only 15 cubits deep. Adam's Earth was very small. It had only 4 Rivers which came from ONE River in the Garden of Eden Gen 2:10 and split into four other rivers. The above verses are speaking of another Earth and NOT the present one. Our Earth has NEVER suffered a Global Flood. Amen?

"The above verses are speaking of another Earth and NOT the present one."

....and you seriously want to debate this nonsense?
 
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PsychoSarah

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The global flood would have started out as many small floods....growing into a world wide flood.
The bible does not say that; water was rising from the ground, and falling from the sky. In no way is it suggested that the flood didn't occur super fast. Worse, if you assume that the flood is the source of the majority of fossils, then it makes absolutely no sense that in certain layers, grasses are not present. And none of the layers follow through with any logic of density or swimming ability.
 
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Aman777

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"The above verses are speaking of another Earth and NOT the present one."

....and you seriously want to debate this nonsense?

Unless you can explain WHY the first firmament, which God called Heaven, was made on the 2nd Day Gen 1:8 AND the other HeavenS were made on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4 ALSO, please explain the world (kosmos) that THEN WAS being totally destroyed in water and the Heavens and Earth WHICH ARE NOW being reserved unto FIRE. ll Peter 3:6-7 ALSO, please explain what the THIRD Heaven of ll Cor 12:2 is speaking about. Go ahead and try if you think you can. Many have tried but NONE has been able to explain. Amen?
 
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PsychoSarah

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"The above verses are speaking of another Earth and NOT the present one."

....and you seriously want to debate this nonsense?
Oh, don't knock Aman777's biblical interpretation yet, it makes for a really fun read. And he's even more fun to debate if you treat it seriously rather than insult him. It may be hard to get past the fact that, to most and probably to you, it sounds like sacrilege, and makes you feel insulted.

I recommend not reading it as an interpretation of the bible, but rather as its own story if you find the fact that it is his biblical interpretation too vexing to enjoy how creative and interesting it is.

Oh, and if you have ever wanted to see religion in a way that is similar to an antitheist, your initial reaction to Aman777 is pretty close. Antitheist, not atheist; antitheists explicitly are against religion, beyond the lack of belief in deities that marks atheism. Most atheists are not antitheists, and don't view religion negatively, or, at least, not that negatively.
 
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Loudmouth

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After reading the wiki description of transitional fossil, I am more convinced than ever that Patterson was right. The belief in such fictional creatures requires more faith than opting for a common designer concept.

They aren't fictional.

toskulls2.jpg



Wow! Human constructs imposed on reality. What an incredible admission that we are dealing with mythical creatures.

They aren't mythical.

toskulls2.jpg



Another frank admission of evolutionist's failure to find strong--water tight--evidence in support of transitional fossils.

Are you blind?

toskulls2.jpg
 
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Aman777

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Oh, don't knock Aman777's biblical interpretation yet, it makes for a really fun read. And he's even more fun to debate if you treat it seriously rather than insult him. It may be hard to get past the fact that, to most and probably to you, it sounds like sacrilege, and makes you feel insulted.

I recommend not reading it as an interpretation of the bible, but rather as its own story if you find the fact that it is his biblical interpretation too vexing to enjoy how creative and interesting it is.

Oh, and if you have ever wanted to see religion in a way that is similar to an antitheist, your initial reaction to Aman777 is pretty close. Antitheist, not atheist; antitheists explicitly are against religion, beyond the lack of belief in deities that marks atheism. Most atheists are not antitheists, and don't view religion negatively, or, at least, not that negatively.

I am simply following the lead of my Saviour, Jesus Christ. Read the following:

Jesus:>>Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

The leaders have taken over the position of Moses in the Religion of the time of Christ.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Religionists are the ENEMY of Christianity since it eliminates the necessity of the presence of Jesus inside the believer in order for them to be saved. Religion is a "belief" and there are tens of thousands of them but there is but One Christianity and that is Christ in you, the hope of Glory. Col 1:27 Amen?
 
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Aman777

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They aren't fictional.
They aren't mythical.
Are you blind?

toskulls2.jpg

No, but you are since you can't tell the difference between Humans (descendants of Adam) and the sons of God, who are the prehistoric people who evolved from the common ancestor of Apes. Your FAITH is in the misguided notion that Humans evolved from the sons of God, on Planet Earth.

God tells us the first Humans (descendants of Adam) arrived in the mountains of Ararat Gen 8:4 some 11k years ago and History totally agrees http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html and shows that Human civilization began exactly where God told us it did, thousands of years BEFORE Godless men tried to find another explanation since they REJECTED God's Truth of the flood. Amen?
 
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Loudmouth

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No, but you are since you can't tell the difference between Humans (descendants of Adam) and the sons of God, who are the prehistoric people who evolved from the common ancestor of Apes. Your FAITH is in the misguided notion that Humans evolved from the sons of God, on Planet Earth.

I don't need faith. I have the evidence.

toskulls2.jpg


God tells us the first Humans (descendants of Adam) arrived in the mountains of Ararat Gen 8:4 some 11k years ago and History totally agrees http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html and shows that Human civilization began exactly where God told us it did, thousands of years BEFORE Godless men tried to find another explanation since they REJECTED God's Truth of the flood. Amen?

That's what a book tells you. I am talking about the evidence found in reality, not stories in books.
 
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Aman777

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I don't need faith. I have the evidence.

toskulls2.jpg




That's what a book tells you. I am talking about the evidence found in reality, not stories in books.

What you have is evidence of the Truth of Scripture. Humans were made long before any other living creature on another world, which was destroyed in the Flood. Gen 2:4-7 The sons of God (prehistoric people) evolved from the common ancestor of Apes in the past few Million years. The combination of the sons of God and Humans makes a Hybrid Human, like the 7 Billion Humans alive today. God told us how to do this more than 3k years ago in Gen 6:4.

Gen 6:4 There were (intellectual) giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (prehistoric man) came in unto the daughters of men, (Adam) and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Our planet is the (and also after that) since this verse is speaking of Adam's Earth and NOT today's Earth. Adam's daughters and prehistoric men married and produced children. The SAME thing happened on Planet Earth since Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans to marry. They married the sons of God (prehistoric people) who were already here when the Ark arrived.

Proof is found in the DNA and ERVs of prehistoric people inside every Human (descendant of Adam) alive today. This, along with the evidence that we have also inherited the unique high intelligence which only Adam and God have, Gen 3:22 makes us all Hybrid Humans. Amen?
 
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PsychoSarah

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I am simply following the lead of my Saviour, Jesus Christ. Read the following:

Jesus:>>Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

The leaders have taken over the position of Moses in the Religion of the time of Christ.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Religionists are the ENEMY of Christianity since it eliminates the necessity of the presence of Jesus inside the believer in order for them to be saved. Religion is a "belief" and there are tens of thousands of them but there is but One Christianity and that is Christ in you, the hope of Glory. Col 1:27 Amen?
I'm encouraging people to read what you have to say, rather than feel insulted or disregard what you say as nonsense not worth reading. Because it is very much worth reading. Out of every biblical interpretation I have been exposed to, yours is the most fascinating. That I don't regard it as accurate by any means doesn't mean I don't enjoy it immensely. I also enjoy showing it to other people, their reactions are always great. Some laugh, others get the "what did I just read?" face, a few find it neat. Everyone I have gotten to read it agrees that it is far more interesting than the actual bible. I just wish you had it all jotted down in one place. You make the bible this great, surreal sci-fi adventure. If I was good at drawing, I would illustrate it.

If you give me your permission, I will collect all of it together for you, and send it to you for ease of access to give to others.
 
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