LDS Lucifer and Jesus are not brothers!

Ironhold said:

[citation needed]

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[citation given]

psalms 110:1-5

random person said:

the melchizedek priesthood is simply a type of christ, it had no beginning and no end and it wasnt the aaronic priesthood that REQUIRED someone from the levite aaronic bloodline. only the descendants of aaron can be a high priest of the aaronic priesthood under the penalty of death.

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the melchizedek priesthood is simply a type of christ,

I’m not sure I even know what that even means.

The priesthood is a synonym for the power and authority of God, God the Father granted man a small portion of that power and authority when he gave him dominion over the earth. There really is only one priesthood but it has been divided in two with the Aaronic being the lesser order.

“... there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

What was the order of Aaron, it was a line of men or a group of men who were decedents of Aaron and Levi. The Greek word is taxis meaning "arrangement", in army terms it is an "orderly array" an ordered troop. Like the order of Aaron the order of Melchisedec is a ordered troop.

Rev 1
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;

1Peter1& 2
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:….Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ… ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;…Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.”

Very often throughout the New Testament when you read ‘brethren’ the writers are speaking about members of the Priesthood order.

Act 15
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

withwonderingawe said:

the melchizedek priesthood is simply a type of christ,

I’m not sure I even know what that even means.

The priesthood is a synonym for the power and authority of God, God the Father granted man a small portion of that power and authority when he gave him dominion over the earth. There really is only one priesthood but it has been divided in two with the Aaronic being the lesser order.

“... there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

What was the order of Aaron, it was a line of men or a group of men who were decedents of Aaron and Levi. The Greek word is taxis meaning "arrangement", in army terms it is an "orderly array" an ordered troop. Like the order of Aaron the order of Melchisedec is a ordered troop.

Rev 1
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;

1Peter1& 2
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:….Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ… ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;…Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.”

Very often throughout the New Testament when you read ‘brethren’ the writers are speaking about members of the Priesthood order.

Act 15
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

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aaronic priesthood no longer exists when the old covenant and the temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. the prophecy in isaiah 66:19-21 speaks about this. now gentiles will become priests of god.

now the order of melchizedek is a type of christ as the high priest ministering and interceding in heaven. christ wasnt from levite stock but judahite stock... read hebrews 7.

abraham paid tithes to the greater order that represents christ our lord. in essence the aaronic priesthood paid tithes to the melchizedek priesthood while still in abraham's loins.

Peter1000 said:

All of these pictorial images are close to the image of a human body. So the image part of "lets create man in our image" is pretty close.

However, there was a second part of the declaration in Genesis 1:26. God also said "let us create man after our likeness". This is a whole other issue. "Image" is one thing, we look like God. But "likeness" is another thing. "Likeness" means that the material we are made of is "Like" the material God is made of.

So Barbie and Ken have our "image", because they look similar to us, but they do not have our "likeness". They are made of plastic material, we are made of flesh and bone and spirit.

A corn cob doll has an image perhaps similar to our image, but she is made of corn cob which is nothing like flesh and bone, and spirit.

It takes 2 witness to establish the truth, an old biblical saying. The 2 witnesses for the make up of God are "image" and "likeness", given to us by the mouth of God, recorded in the bible. God already knew this would be an issue, so He did not just say "let us create man in our image", He said "let us create man in our image, after our likeness. Way different. Don't forget "likeness".

Therefore if a man is created in the image and likeness of God, you would expect God to be in the image and likeness as man. Again I have to keep saying that a perfect resurrected body is higher than our human body, as our human body is higher than a one-celled amoeba. But the foundation of a perfect resurrected body and a human body are the same. The resurrected body has so many more incredible qualities unimaginable to man, but nonetheless, flesh, bone, and spirit.

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IMAGE: A reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing. The form of something as a shadow of the original. [Strong's #: 6754, 6755]
lexicon_tsade.html

εἴδωλον


eidōlon

Thayer Definition:

1) an image, likeness

1a) i.e. whatever represents the form of an object, either real or imaginary

1b) used of the shades of the departed, apparitions, spectres, phantoms of the mind, etc.

2) the image of an heathen god

3) a false god

Part of Speech: noun neuter

ἰκών


eikōn

Thayer Definition:

1) an image, figure, likeness

1a) an image of the things (the heavenly things)

1a1) used of the moral likeness of renewed men to God

1a2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses

1b) the image of one

1b1) one in whom the likeness of any one is seen

1b2) applied to man on account of his power of command

1b3) to Christ on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellence

̔μοίωμα


homoiōma

Thayer Definition:

1) that which has been made after the likeness of something

1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation

1b) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

צלם


tselem

BDB Definition:

1) image

1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)

1b) image, likeness (of resemblance)

1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (figuratively)

Part of Speech: noun masculine
noun
1.
a representation, picture, or image, especially a portrait:
to draw a good likeness of Churchill.
2.
the state or fact of being like :
I can't get over your likeness to my friend.
3.
the semblance or appearance of something; guise:
to assume the likeness of a swan.

There is no definition of likeness that states---exactly the same composition as something else---likeness and image--same thing---a representation--we are not cloned of God. We are as the images above----representations not made of the same thing.

I couldn't get rid of the Isis statue--it was a response to some other thread that sneaked in.

random person said:

what sons of gods can claim to be the alpha and the omega? can satan make that claim?

what sons of god can claim to be "i am"? can satan?

what sons of god can claim they spoke all of creation into being? can satan?

how is it possible for creator and the creation to be brothers???

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Again, you are asking questions, without answering my questions. I will be happy to answer your questions in this post, but not before you answer my questions in the post you are responding to.

For instance, I ask: 1) show me a scripture that the sons of God spoken of in Job 38:7 were created to only worship God.
Your response: What sons of God can claim to be the alpha and the omega? Can satan make that claim?

No scripture to back up your claim, only another question. And this is after I asked you not to answer by question with a question. Sometimes it is appropriate to answer a question with a question, but not all the time. Some times you have to put up your support. You do not.

So here are the other questions you did not answer from the same post you are responding to:

2) Give me a scripture that says Jesus was set apart from the creation.

3) Give me a scripture that says that Jesus, the firstborn of all the creations of God (Col. 1:14) had no siblings.

4) Tell me who the "fellows" are in Psalms 45:7? Are they siblings of Jesus or are they friends of Jesus?

Your turn to answer, then I promise I look forward to answering your questions.

random person said:

yes the resurrection was evidence of christ's victory over death and god held up his promise that his holy one would not see corruption.

but christ returned to spirit after his ascension.

compare john 17:5 with philippians 2:7-9 & hebrews 2:7-9

flesh and bone are not the natural state of god. he is a spirit.

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random person says:
yes the resurrection was evidence of christ's victory over death and god held up his promise that his holy one would not see corruption.

You are corrrect, he did not see corruption, in fact his body was changed from a human type flesh and bone and spirit to a resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. All of the scriptures that describe Jesus after the resurrection describe him with a body of flesh and bone and spirit. (Luke 24:39, and Acts 1:11)

random person:
but christ returned to spirit after his ascension.

This is the question I asked you to show me a scripture for before, which you have ignored. What did Jesus do with his body when he returned to spirit? Show me the scripture for that.

random person:
compare john 17:5 with philippians 2:7-9 & hebrews 2:7-9

You have quoted John 17:5, which only states that Jesus wants the same glory that he had before his earthly ministry. It does not tell us that in order to recieve this glory, he would have to be a spirit, like he was before his earthly ministry. It does not address what Jesus's make up was. So find a better scripture that tells us Jesus is spirit now.

Phillipians 2:7-9 talks about Jesus being made in the likenss of man, so he could be our Savior even unto death. Does not address after his resurrection. So doesn't work for our question. So find a better scripture that tells us Jesus is a spirit now

Hebrews 2:7-9 talks about God exalting Jesus after the resurrection. Does not address his make up. I would think Jesus could be exalted by God whether he is spirit or flesh and bone and spirit. Maybe you have a better scripture that tells us that Jesus is a spirit now, or only spirits can be exalted.

random person:
flesh and bone are not the natural state of god. he is a spirit.

This has to be a personal belief, because there is no scripture in the bible that I know of that states "flesh and bone are not the natural state of God". Again, you will have to support this claim with a scripture.
Show me a scripture that tells us that Jesus is a spirit today?

Peter1000 said:

random person says:
yes the resurrection was evidence of christ's victory over death and god held up his promise that his holy one would not see corruption.

You are corrrect, he did not see corruption, in fact his body was changed from a human type flesh and bone and spirit to a resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. All of the scriptures that describe Jesus after the resurrection describe him with a body of flesh and bone and spirit. (Luke 24:39, and Acts 1:11)

random person:
but christ returned to spirit after his ascension.

This is the question I asked you to show me a scripture for before, which you have ignored. What did Jesus do with his body when he returned to spirit? Show me the scripture for that.

random person:
compare john 17:5 with philippians 2:7-9 & hebrews 2:7-9

You have quoted John 17:5, which only states that Jesus wants the same glory that he had before his earthly ministry. It does not tell us that in order to recieve this glory, he would have to be a spirit, like he was before his earthly ministry. It does not address what Jesus's make up was. So find a better scripture that tells us Jesus is spirit now.

Phillipians 2:7-9 talks about Jesus being made in the likenss of man, so he could be our Savior even unto death. Does not address after his resurrection. So doesn't work for our question. So find a better scripture that tells us Jesus is a spirit now

Hebrews 2:7-9 talks about God exalting Jesus after the resurrection. Does not address his make up. I would think Jesus could be exalted by God whether he is spirit or flesh and bone and spirit. Maybe you have a better scripture that tells us that Jesus is a spirit now, or only spirits can be exalted.

random person:
flesh and bone are not the natural state of god. he is a spirit.

This has to be a personal belief, because there is no scripture in the bible that I know of that states "flesh and bone are not the natural state of God". Again, you will have to support this claim with a scripture.
Show me a scripture that tells us that Jesus is a spirit today?

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It is amazing how much of their doctrine is built on assumptions about a reality which is not Bible based. Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God, if one believes in the Bible it seems like you would have to believe there are two separate individuals with hands. I don't understand rejecting Stephen's witness??

withwonderingawe said:

It is amazing how much of their doctrine is built on assumptions about a reality which is not Bible based. Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God, if one believes in the Bible it seems like you would have to believe there are two separate individuals with hands. I don't understand rejecting Stephen's witness??

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If I were to paint a picture of Stephen in the bible, looking into heaven and seeing the Father and the Son side by side, and then take that picture to show it to the different Christian churches, there would be some congregations that would stone me on the spot thinking this was a picture of Joseph Smith seeing the Father and the Son standing side by side.

It is interesting to me too, but I thoroughly enjoy the discussions. Thanks for your good posts

random person said:

the melchizedek priesthood is simply a type of christ, it had no beginning and no end and it wasnt the aaronic priesthood that REQUIRED someone from the levite aaronic bloodline. only the descendants of aaron can be a high priest of the aaronic priesthood under the penalty of death.

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There is no scripture, but what the heck, at least there is information passed along, not just another question.

So the Melchizedek priesthood is simply a type of Christ, because "it has no beginning and no end", and so does Jesus. So are you saying that only a person that can say, "I have no beginning and no end" is qualified to hold the Melchizedek priesthood?

Peter1000 said:

Again, you are asking questions, without answering my questions. I will be happy to answer your questions in this post, but not before you answer my questions in the post you are responding to.

For instance, I ask: 1) show me a scripture that the sons of God spoken of in Job 38:7 were created to only worship God.
Your response: What sons of God can claim to be the alpha and the omega? Can satan make that claim?

No scripture to back up your claim, only another question. And this is after I asked you not to answer by question with a question. Sometimes it is appropriate to answer a question with a question, but not all the time. Some times you have to put up your support. You do not.

So here are the other questions you did not answer from the same post you are responding to:

2) Give me a scripture that says Jesus was set apart from the creation.

3) Give me a scripture that says that Jesus, the firstborn of all the creations of God (Col. 1:14) had no siblings.

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please continue to read colossians 1:15-17 it holds the answers. christ existed before all things and created all things including the angels. the book of revelation has plenty of passages for angelic worship of the lamb of god.

4) Tell me who the "fellows" are in Psalms 45:7? Are they siblings of Jesus or are they friends of Jesus?

Your turn to answer, then I promise I look forward to answering your questions.

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the fellows represent all of the heavenly and earthly hosts.

now my questions:

what is "kolob"?

why doesnt the bom have any archeaological evidence to support its lands and its peoples? the bom is bankrupt regards to archaeological evidence!

Kolob is the name of the star that God used as a point of reference when determining the "days" of creation.


As far as the archaeology goes, that question sadly tells me that you're about 20+ years behind on the latest updates.

Jeff Lindsay's website is a fair primer on the topic of what we now know, and so I'd suggest starting there. Here are a few links to begin with:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMEvidence.shtml

http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb2.shtml

Yes folks, even the Smithsonian had to retract an official statement because it, too, was behind the times when it came to the relevant topics.

random person said:

please continue to read colossians 1:15-17 it holds the answers. christ existed before all things and created all things including the angels. the book of revelation has plenty of passages for angelic worship of the lamb of god.



the fellows represent all of the heavenly and earthly hosts.

now my questions:

what is "kolob"?

why doesnt the bom have any archeaological evidence to support its lands and its peoples? the bom is bankrupt regards to archaeological evidence!

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Why not start another thread for these questions, they are off topic. We can't start them according to the rules so you'll have to.

Bottom line---God did not impregnate Mary---as I said---the Holy Spirit "overshadowed" Mary and Jesus Himself became an embryo --- God did not create another Jesus in Mary--It is the same Jesus that existed before that became a baby in her womb. To suggest that God somehow impregnated Mary would obviously lead to the conclusion that now there are 2 Christ's. JS was very wrong.




cheroubim

Thayer Definition:

1) cherubim, two golden figures of living creatures with two wings; they were fastened to the lid of the ark of the covenant in the holy of holies (both at the sacred tabernacle and of Solomon’s temple) in such a manner that their faces were turned towards each other and down towards the lid, which they overshadowed with their expanded wings. Between these figures God was regarded as having fixed his dwelling place.
[ˌōvərˈSHadō]
shade · darken · conceal · obscure ·
screen · dominate · overlook

• cast a gloom over:
  "it is easy to let this feeling of tragedy overshadow his story"
  synonyms: cast gloom over · blight · take the edge off · mar ·
  spoil · ruin

• appear much more prominent or important than:
  "his competitive nature often overshadows the other qualities"

withwonderingawe said:

Kolob and the Book of Mormon have nothing to do with this thread, start a thread on the Book of Abraham and one on archaeology of the Book of Mormon

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I must disagree with this---The book of Mormon has everything to do with this thread---without that book, you wouldn't have these believes.

mmksparbud said:

I must disagree with this---The book of Mormon has everything to do with this thread---without that book, you wouldn't have these believes.

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And without the bible you wouldn't have your

fatboys said:

And without the bible you wouldn't have your

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Absolutely!! We have our bible--you have your BOM. We shall see which is the one that saves.

Peter1000 said:

There is no scripture, but what the heck, at least there is information passed along, not just another question.

So the Melchizedek priesthood is simply a type of Christ, because "it has no beginning and no end", and so does Jesus. So are you saying that only a person that can say, "I have no beginning and no end" is qualified to hold the Melchizedek priesthood?

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1. melchizedek was a king so is christ
2. melchizedek was a king of righteousness his name signifies "the righteous king" so is christ
3. melchizedek was king of salem, that is "king of peace", so is christ
4. melchizedek was "priest of the most high god" of the gentiles so is christ
5. melchizedek was without father and without end so is christ
6. melchizedek met and blessed abraham while abraham paid a tithe to melchizedek
7. melchizedek was "made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually"

mmksparbud said:

I must disagree with this---The book of Mormon has everything to do with this thread---without that book, you wouldn't have these believes.

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No, Kolob is not in the Book of Mormon nor is the teaching that Jesus in the brother of Lucifer, start a thread on the Book of Abraham

random person said:

please continue to read colossians 1:15-17 it holds the answers. christ existed before all things and created all things including the angels. the book of revelation has plenty of passages for angelic worship of the lamb of god.



the fellows represent all of the heavenly and earthly hosts.

now my questions:

what is "kolob"?

why doesnt the bom have any archeaological evidence to support its lands and its peoples? the bom is bankrupt regards to archaeological evidence!

Click to expand...

random person says:
please continue to read colossians 1:15-17 it holds the answers. christ existed before all things and created all things including the angels. the book of revelation has plenty of passages for angelic worship of the lamb of god.

I have read Colossians 1:15-17 and I agree with you on what most of it says. But I do not believe that you understand the ramifications of verse 15. You rather overlook vs 15 so that you can get to 16&17, where you are more comfortable. We agree for the most part that 16&17 are true, but 15 is the key verse that has to do with this discussion. So here is the vs 15, it is a description of Jesus Christ.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

So here are a couple of questions about vs 15 and 1 about 17

1) according to vs 15, Jesus was the firstborn of every creature, since Adam was the firstborn flesh man, what was Jesus the firstborn of?

2) If Jesus is the firstborn of every creaure, would that imply other creatures (siblings) would be coming later? Show me a scripture that says no siblings later.

3) Is Jesus's Father and God, the same as our Father and God?

4) Now for vs 17. Would you agree that Jesus was before all things, except his Father and his God?

random person:
the fellows represent all of the heavenly and earthly hosts.

I would agree with you, but are any of them siblings or friends of Jesus, the scripture would imply they are.

random person:
now my questions:

what is "kolob"?

why doesnt the bom have any archeaological evidence to support its lands and its peoples? the bom is bankrupt regards to archaeological evidence!

These topics have to be set aside for a time for another thread, they are tempting to jump into, but let's do this later. Thanks.