Trump reads scripture at Liberty University

Maren · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
and you don't see any difference there? That being affiliated with a church that you attend, even infrequently, is a stronger indicator than merely having belonged to one somewhere else earlier in one's life?

Yes, but that comment of mine was made for a particular reason you are omitting. It was suggested that Trump's pastor doesn't know anything about him or can't verify that Trump never has darkened his church's door. That's not accurate to say

I don't see the difference you do, particularly given the reason Obama is no longer attending his former Church. Using your criteria, obviously Reagan must not have been a Christian once he became President -- funny how Republican's weren't yelling about how he was no longer Christian. Oh, that's right, Reagan's political views agreed with yours, so you didn't feel the need to question his Christianity. You also want to ignore that Obama frequently holds and attends prayer breakfasts where he talks about his faith in a way Trump never has. Instead, you have a Trump who does not seem to believe in repentance -- based upon his own statements -- which seems to be a key part of Christianity. You also ignore the reason the pastors comments were made -- Trump's claim that he attends church a lot.

Again, you don't seem like you can objectively look at this issue as the double standard seems huge from here.

chandraclaws · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
I've referred to that before. Perhaps you can check it out and get back to me, if you're serious.

I realize I'm biting at another condescending non-response, but in checking out your previous posts,

Albion said:
But everyone, including Trump himself, knows that he's a Christian...

Is this the precedent for your conclusions?

Albion said:
Church membership, attendance, and a personal affirmation count as evidence, I'd think.

That's the same thing we are discussing now.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

Maren said:
I don't see the difference you do, particularly given the reason Obama is no longer attending his former Church.

Before we go further, I think you need to explain why he would not do what almost anyone would do (if he's supposed to be such a big Christian as claimed, that is). I refer to attending a new church nearer his current residence and, more likely, joining one! Trump is in New York, where he was born and his home office is located, more often than anywhere else. That's where his church is.

Using your criteria, obviously Reagan must not have been a Christian once he became President -- funny how Republican's weren't yelling about how he was no longer Christian.

Nonsense. We remember how he frequently had ministers (some famous ones, some not so much so) into the White House to counsel him, advise him, hold worship and prayer with him, etc. And he spoke of his faith often, not just grudgingly and belatedly saying something like "yeh, I'm a Christian." How often have you seen any of this on the news...or the Obamas attending worship at a Washington, DC church of any denomination? That act has been, for most of our history, almost an obligatory gesture by presidents.

Again, you don't seem like you can objectively look at this issue as the double standard seems huge from here.

Talk like that, departing from topic as it does, only tells me that the topic here is being used just as an opportunity for partisan sniping.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

chandraclaws said:
I realize I'm biting at another condescending non-response, but in checking out your previous posts

Get back to me with a relevant and non-confrontational post, and we'll continue.

Maren · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
Before we go further, I think you need to explain why he would not do what almost anyone would do (if he's supposed to be such a big Christian as claimed, that is). I refer to attending a new church nearer his current residence and, more likely, joining one! Trump is in New York, where he was born and his home office is located, more often than anywhere else. That's where his church is.

So you completely ignored the quote from Reagan? It is a huge issue for the President to attend church, from having police close down streets (not a traffic issue on Sundays, but it is a manpower issue for making Police work rather than be able to attend their own church services); the extra Secret Service required to work; the staff required for communications to ensure the President could quickly respond in case of an emergency.

Additionally, there was the issue that Obama had a huge number of death threats when he took office from racist individual/groups and he was more likely to have attended a more traditional Black church than the National Cathedral or other "White" church. So he had even more than the normal terrorist issue that had to be taken into account. I'm guessing the Secret Service strongly advised against Obama attending church.

Albion said:
Nonsense. We remember how he frequently had ministers (some famous ones, some not so much so) into the White House to counsel him, advise him, hold worship and prayer with him, etc. And he spoke of his faith often, not just grudgingly and belatedly saying something like "yeh, I'm a Christian." How often have you seen any of this on the news...or the Obamas attending worship at a Washington, DC church of any denomination? That act has been, for most of our history, almost an obligatory gesture by presidents.

Perhaps you don't hear it because Obama's faith is personal to him, he isn't doing it for political reasons? Again, the evidence is there of all the prayer breakfasts being held but when was the last time that one of them was politicized and in the news? It's odd, if we don't have pictures of Trump going to church it is because he isn't seeking attention for going to church so pictures of Obama going to church/meeting with clergy are ignored. Yet Obama isn't Christian because there are no publicized meetings with clergy or of him going to church? And you seriously claim you don't have a double standard?

Albion said:
The more you talk like this the more I know that you're just a partisan and not really serious about the religious issue.

I think Luke 6:42 would seem to apply here. It'd have said the Matthew version but didn't want you to feel as if I was personally attacking you.

chandraclaws · Jan 23, 2016

Maren said:
Except your specifics largely only reinforce my point. You talk about how Obama hasn't regularly gone to church since Chicago to show he isn't Christian, yet then state that Trump's not being a church goer doesn't effect his status as a Christian. You say that Trump's pastor doesn't deny he is a member, yet fail to mention that Obama's Pastor not only did not deny he was a member but stated he attended church regularly. I'm not sure how any reads that and can't see the huge double standard being applied.

As for the rest, you make some vague claims about "all the usual evidence." Perhaps I'm wrong, but that sounds a lot like you are talking about his political beliefs. You also completely ignore the evidence about Obama attending prayer breakfasts, talking of his relationship and belief in Christ.

One last note, in terms of the President attending Church, Reagan had been a regular church goer up until he became president. His comments as to why: “The answer to your question is very simple about why I don’t go to church. I have gone to church regularly all my life, and I started to here in Washington. And now, in the position I hold and in the world in which we live, where Embassies do get blown up in Beirut … but I pose a threat to several hundred people if I go to church.
“I know the threats that are made against me. We all know the possibility of terrorism. We have seen the barricades that have had to be built around the White House. And, therefore, I don’t feel – and my minister knows this and supports me in this position – I don’t feel that I have a right to go to church, knowing that my being there could cause something of the kind that we have seen in other places, in Beirut, for example. And I miss going to church, but I think the Lord understands.” There are likely good reasons for Obama not being a regular church goer as President, including the Secret Service discouraging him from attending.

President Obama has also said that he prefers to worship God privately. I think that church attendance is really a gift, a place of spiritual rest and renewal, an opportunity to connect and worship with others, not something to judge or justify others by.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

Maren said:
It is a huge issue for the President to attend church, from having police close down streets (not a traffic issue on Sundays, but it is a manpower issue for making Police work rather than be able to attend their own church services); the extra Secret Service required to work; the staff required for communications to ensure the President could quickly respond in case of an emergency.

Baloney. Obama doesn't hesitate to do that many times over every time he plays golf or goes to Martha's Vineyard--with his whole family and advisors. Besides, the same considerations applied to previous presidents, so this objection seems without merit to me.

Perhaps you don't hear it because Obama's faith is personal to him

That could be said, but you can't talk as though Trump's faith isn't personal to him! C'mon. These replies aren't credible.

Maren · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
Baloney. Obama doesn't hesitate to do that many times over every time he plays golf or goes to Martha's Vineyard--with his whole family and advisors. Besides, the same considerations applied to previous presidents, so this objection seems without merit to me.

That could be said, but you can't stipulate that Trump's faith isn't personal to him at the same time! C'mon. These replies aren't credible.

I'm not saying anything about Trump's faith. My entire point, from the start, has been the double standard applied to Trump's Christianity vs. Obama's Christianity.

As for "the same considerations for past presidents", that isn't really true in a post-9/11 world and with Obama being the first non-White president.

As for golfing, I'll give you half credit, since he seems to always golf on military installations while in Washington (which have the communications equipment and personnel needed already) and, when he is golfing at Martha's Vineyard (or Hawaii), the island is essentially in a high security state (with all personnel traveling anyway) because of the President and his family vacationing there. It is also worth noting that you don't see any president vacationing in large cities (such as Chicago); Obama it has been Hawaii or Martha's Vineyard; Bush, Jr. it was his ranch or Maine (his father's home where his father typically vacationed), Clinton was in Martha's Vineyard or Jackson, WY, etc. Instead, presidents' vacation (and golf) in areas that are much easier to secure, where typically they can "shut down" the area.

chandraclaws · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
Get back to me with a relevant and non-confrontational post, and we'll continue.

The post is not irrelevant. It is specific to the original question.

Albion said:
As I said, this ground has already been covered.
I'm not sure if you missed out on that information or if, instead, you are using these replies simply as opportunities for throwing more mud.

That is not condescending? You're simply calling a differing opinion throwing mud. Remember, we are still discussing the original question:

"Mr. Trump turned to 2 Cor 3:17, but he said "Two Corinthians" instead of saying "second Corinthians" then he read the text. Does this mean that he very rarely reads the Bible, or is it just an innocent slip-up? (I've never heard a minister say "Let's all turn to two Corinthians"). He complemented the university and said he would defend religious liberty for Christians. Do you think he is sincere or just saying that to win the evangelical vote?"

Albion · Jan 24, 2016

Maren said:
I'm not saying anything about Trump's faith. My entire point, from the start, has been the double standard applied to Trump's Christianity vs. Obama's Christianity.

Well, I don't think that there is any such double standard...except for the people who are trying so hard to find something to criticize in Trump that they'll question his faith on trivial grounds while giving a complete pass to Obama. And, if we're fair about it, Obama can in no way be considered among the more overtly religious presidents in our history.

Albion · Jan 24, 2016

chandraclaws said:
That is not condescending? You're simply calling a differing opinion throwing mud.

No, I'm calling mud-slinging by the expression, "throwing mud."

I take different opinions in stride, but when I see posts that start with a phrase that looks like a response to the question of the thread but immediately go to name-calling and insults, I conclude that that's the real purpose of the writer.

I'm sorry if my replies, or some of them, have seemed condescending to you or anyone else, or perhaps curt, but I think it's more the case that I don't want to be "discussing" politics at the gutter level rather than on the issues.

interpreter · Jan 24, 2016

chandraclaws said:
Is there any evidence of Trump being a Christian? Or maybe even just a hint?

Like most Christians he knows one verse. It looks like in the national election we will get to choose between a Presbyterian on one side and either a Methodist or an agnostic Jew on the other side, all of which probably know about one verse from the Bible. Trump is the lessor evil of the three.

Albion · Jan 24, 2016

interpreter said:
Like most Christians he knows one verse.

...and you think that, if what you say here is accurate, the verse would be THAT one ( 2 Corinthians 3:17 )?

Not John 3:16 or a much more likely one than the verse he cited at Liberty? Think about it.

TLK Valentine · Jan 24, 2016

interpreter said:
Like most Christians he knows one verse.

At least it's not Luke 19:27. You wouldn't believe some of the atrocity people try to justify with that one...

redleghunter · Jan 24, 2016

TLK Valentine said:
At least it's not Luke 19:27. You wouldn't believe some of the atrocity people try to justify with that one...

All bad theology starts one of two ways.

The first is to take an OT verse out of context to promote a political view.

The other is wresting a parable as literal.

TLK Valentine · Jan 24, 2016

redleghunter said:
All bad theology starts one of two ways.

The first is to take an OT verse out of context to promote a political view.

The other is wresting a parable as literal.

Sometimes we get a real loon in here who does both.

...wait for it...

Belk · Jan 25, 2016

KWCrazy said:
He's a really good salesman.
Obama was better, but sooner or later compulsive liars like Obama collapse under the weight of their own lies.
I think Trump is sincere in what he's saying, which is why people overlook his constant foh paahs while trying to say it. Trump is a businessman, not a politician. I think he wants America to be great again.
What he will do right is that he will surround himself with the best and brightest people he can find to make the changes he thinks need to be made.
What he will do wrong is that he is a pragmatist, not a conservative. He may try to make laws, like Obama does, by executive order.
Will he become president? Who knows? Any Republican candidate is better than that pond scum we have there now.

These two statements rarely go together in my experience.

redleghunter · Jan 25, 2016

Belk said:
These two statements rarely go together in my experience.

Yeah understand. Have someone in family like that. Think we all do.

KWCrazy · Jan 25, 2016

Belk said:
These two statements rarely go together in my experience.

That's sad for you.
I've been in sales for 29 years and I can tell you for a fact that any salesman who expects to make a career in the industry had better be sincere about his product. If you can't believe in what you sell, go sell what you can believe in. You can live on lies for a short term, but they will all come back to bite you and you'll be run out of the business. I've seen it happen more times that I can count. The flim flam artists run up high totals in the short term, then word gets out and they're done. I only know of a couple of smooth liars that were able to survive. They went into management.

Armoured · Jan 25, 2016

KWCrazy said:
That's sad for you.
I've been in sales for 29 years and I can tell you for a fact that any salesman who expects to make a career in the industry had better be sincere about his product. If you can't believe in what you sell, go sell what you can believe in. You can live on lies for a short term, but they will all come back to bite you and you'll be run out of the business. I've seen it happen more times that I can count. The flim flam artists run up high totals in the short term, then word gets out and they're done. I only know of a couple of smooth liars that were able to survive. They went into management.

Or opened casinos in Atlantic City, then ran for President.

Trump reads scripture at Liberty University

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I've already read the books you want burned.

Thank You Jesus!

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So is America great again yet?

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