All are saved, yet some are condemned

caley · Mar 3, 2003

If there are infinite dimensions, and Time is the fourth dimension, what is the fifth?  It seems reasonable that if Time is the fourth, then Probability, or what happens throughout Time is the fifth, which leads us to the idea of parallel universes/alternate realities.  If this is true, then there are infinite alternate realities, and infinite manifestations of every person that has ever existed or ever will exist.

How does this tie into the subject line?  Well, Christ said that he came to save all humanity, yet he also made it very clear that some would be condemned.  How can both of these statements be true?  The idea of alternate realities makes it possible that both are equally true.  When we are saved, we become something new, possibly even pandimensional.  If we change to pandimensionality, then we encompass the fifth dimension, which means that every manifestation of us in every alternate reality becomes synthesized.  However, some of those manifestations (if they are indeed infinite) will be "evil" and hence condemned.  Our goal as Christians is to be one of the manifestations of our self that is "good" and hence gets to become part of the whole of our self, pandimensional, and eternally one with the Father.

 

...or am I thinking too hard?

OldShepherd · Mar 3, 2003

Today at 11:48 AM caley said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688581#post688581)

If there are infinite dimensions, and Time is the fourth dimension, what is the fifth?  It seems reasonable that if Time is the fourth, then Probability, or what happens throughout Time is the fifth, which leads us to the idea of parallel universes/alternate realities.  If this is true, then there are infinite alternate realities, and infinite manifestations of every person that has ever existed or ever will exist.

How does this tie into the subject line?  Well, Christ said that he came to save all humanity, yet he also made it very clear that some would be condemned.  How can both of these statements be true?  The idea of alternate realities makes it possible that both are equally true.  When we are saved, we become something new, possibly even pandimensional.  If we change to pandimensionality, then we encompass the fifth dimension, which means that every manifestation of us in every alternate reality becomes synthesized.  However, some of those manifestations (if they are indeed infinite) will be "evil" and hence condemned.  Our goal as Christians is to be one of the manifestations of our self that is "good" and hence gets to become part of the whole of our self, pandimensional, and eternally one with the Father.

...or am I thinking too hard?

Thinking too hard. Jesus came for the purpose of saving all BUT mankind has freedom of choice, some choose not to be saved. We are not robots programmed to do only certain things and not do other things.

Bernie02 · Mar 4, 2003

Caley,

YOU: "Well, Christ said that he came to save all humanity, yet he also made it very clear that some would be condemned.  How can both of these statements be true?"

As long as we're engaging in non-traditional thought processes here, there's another way of looking at the scriptures on the subject of salvation in which both statements can be true...

Instead of applying the teachings of Scripture to individuals or groups of individuals, assume that all the Bible teachings concerning salvation are directed to the myriad elements within the spirit of each individual.  Goats and sheep (Mat 25), wheat and tares (Mat 13), etc. are the dual spiritual elements (good/evil) of man.

Condemnation is decreed against the evil (Amos 9:10), restoration/salvation promised to the righteous (Mat 13:43). Food for thought: only the 'remnant' is saved (Isa 10:22, Rom 9:27, Jer 31:2, Mat 7:13-14).  Sounds like "spiritual surgery" to me (Ezek 21:3-5, Luke 12:46, Mark 9:43-47). Yikes!

One thing for sure: in this view, justice is meted out in absolute perfection...all get what each deserves, with no one sliding on into home plate (heaven) because of membership in a religious club. 

Before you rail against the idea, think it through...this method of interpretation fits all the scripture perfectly, both testaments and clears up virtually all the problems raised by the warring sisters (arminians/calvinists).

God bless you in your walk.

caley · Mar 4, 2003

Today at 06:53 AM Bernie02 said this in Post #3

Caley,

YOU: "Well, Christ said that he came to save all humanity, yet he also made it very clear that some would be condemned.  How can both of these statements be true?"

As long as we're engaging in non-traditional thought processes here, there's another way of looking at the scriptures on the subject of salvation in which both statements can be true...

Instead of applying the teachings of Scripture to individuals or groups of individuals, assume that all the Bible teachings concerning salvation are directed to the myriad elements within the spirit of each individual.  Goats and sheep (Mat 25), wheat and tares (Mat 13), etc. are the dual spiritual elements (good/evil) of man.

Condemnation is decreed against the evil (Amos 9:10), restoration/salvation promised to the righteous (Mat 13:43). Food for thought: only the 'remnant' is saved (Isa 10:22, Rom 9:27, Jer 31:2, Mat 7:13-14).  Sounds like "spiritual surgery" to me (Ezek 21:3-5, Luke 12:46, Mark 9:43-47). Yikes!

One thing for sure: in this view, justice is meted out in absolute perfection...all get what each deserves, with no one sliding on into home plate (heaven) because of membership in a religious club. 

Before you rail against the idea, think it through...this method of interpretation fits all the scripture perfectly, both testaments and clears up virtually all the problems raised by the warring sisters (arminians/calvinists).

God bless you in your walk.

I have thought about this before as well.  This is kind of the way Lewis describes it in "The Great Divorce," only he maintained that some were so consumed by their sin that there was no righteousness left to save.

dnich163 · Mar 4, 2003

Methinks you think too much, but interesting thoughts anyway.
I see time as being part of God, that God is without time.
I think that the medeival theologians like Thomas Aquinas thought that way also.
I'm happy with that idea.
David

Blackhawk · Mar 4, 2003

Yesterday at 12:53 PM Bernie02 said this in Post #3

Caley,

YOU: "Well, Christ said that he came to save all humanity, yet he also made it very clear that some would be condemned.  How can both of these statements be true?"

As long as we're engaging in non-traditional thought processes here, there's another way of looking at the scriptures on the subject of salvation in which both statements can be true...

Instead of applying the teachings of Scripture to individuals or groups of individuals, assume that all the Bible teachings concerning salvation are directed to the myriad elements within the spirit of each individual.  Goats and sheep (Mat 25), wheat and tares (Mat 13), etc. are the dual spiritual elements (good/evil) of man.

Condemnation is decreed against the evil (Amos 9:10), restoration/salvation promised to the righteous (Mat 13:43). Food for thought: only the 'remnant' is saved (Isa 10:22, Rom 9:27, Jer 31:2, Mat 7:13-14).  Sounds like "spiritual surgery" to me (Ezek 21:3-5, Luke 12:46, Mark 9:43-47). Yikes!

One thing for sure: in this view, justice is meted out in absolute perfection...all get what each deserves, with no one sliding on into home plate (heaven) because of membership in a religious club. 

Before you rail against the idea, think it through...this method of interpretation fits all the scripture perfectly, both testaments and clears up virtually all the problems raised by the warring sisters (arminians/calvinists).

God bless you in your walk.

Well if that is true that God is just condemming evil then what do you do with these verses?

Rom 3:10-18
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
(NAU)

It is clear that no one is good so are we all Condemmed completely then?  If we look at the Bible's theology of man we find that if man got what he deserved then all men would be in hell right now.  or worse.  If that is possible. 

caley · Mar 4, 2003

Today at 05:53 PM dnich163 said this in Post #5

Methinks you think too much, but interesting thoughts anyway.
I see time as being part of God, that God is without time.
I think that the medeival theologians like Thomas Aquinas thought that way also.
I'm happy with that idea.
David

I think of time as a dimension, and there are infinite dimensions.  We are three-dimensional, thus bound to one direction in the fourth dimension (time).   God is pandimensional, meaning he is able to move about freely through all dimensions without being bound to any, just as we can move about freely in three dimensions.  God is not without Time, it just does not affect him.

wryan · Mar 5, 2003

Hey Caley,

I am in agreement with Old Shepherd here. You reffered to The Great Divorce, if you want more of Lewis' views concerning this check out The Problem of Pain.(if you already haven't) God Bless. Bill

caley · Mar 5, 2003

Today at 12:38 AM wryan said this in Post #8

Hey Caley,

I am in agreement with Old Shepherd here. You reffered to The Great Divorce, if you want more of Lewis' views concerning this check out The Problem of Pain.(if you already haven't) God Bless. Bill

Yes, I have read it twice.  He also covers it in Mere Christianity.

I just like thinking, and sometimes my thinking goes in very non-traditional/mysterious directions.  Certainly suggesting what I did in the opening post is not blasphemy, it's just an idea I came up with and wanted to share the possibility with the members of this forum.

wryan · Mar 5, 2003

Hey Caley,

I'm not yelling blasphemy. I'm someone who is very analytical, and many times too much so for my own good.

I enjoy so many of Lewis' writings, but Mere Christianity is still my favorite by far. God Bless. Bill

dnich163 · Mar 5, 2003

Today at 01:36 AM caley said this in Post #7

I think of time as a dimension, and there are infinite dimensions.  We are three-dimensional, thus bound to one direction in the fourth dimension (time).   God is pandimensional, meaning he is able to move about freely through all dimensions without being bound to any, just as we can move about freely in three dimensions.  God is not without Time, it just does not affect him.

Hi Caley,

My own view is that all these dimensions may exist within God, but that he is in effect above and beyond all of these.

I would say that all these dimensions are actually bound up in God, as we all are.

David

drmmjr · Mar 5, 2003

Actually, it should read All are condemned, yet some are saved.

caley · Mar 5, 2003

Today at 08:17 PM drmmjr said this in Post #12

Actually, it should read All are condemned, yet some are saved.

If the theory proposed in the OP is true, then both statements mean the same thing.

JillLars · Mar 5, 2003

Ouch, my brain hurts. I broke my wookie.

Job_38 · Mar 6, 2003

Today at 05:53 AM caley said this in Post #13

If the theory proposed in the OP is true, then both statements mean the same thing.

 But they do not. Becaused the "equation" goes this way: When born we are destined to Hell(by our understanding) but then God, who fordained it, takes us out of that destination and brings us to His safety.

  The other way around supposes we will all go to Heaven but some are told no. Simply not so.

 

Bernie02 · Mar 7, 2003

Blackhawk,

YOU: "It is clear that no one is good so are we all Condemmed completely then?  If we look at the Bible's theology of man we find that if man got what he deserved then all men would be in hell right now.  or worse.  If that is possible."

I thought the answer was obvious: the evil within us is condemned to die.  God has power over death -- what did Jesus teach about death?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (Jn 12:24)

Life is brought forth from death.  This is the basic salvation message.  Look at the valley of dry bones in Ezek 37.

Caley,

YOU: "Yes, I have read it [The Problem of Pain]twice.  He also covers it in <I>Mere Christianity</I>."

Assuming you're familiar with Lewis, then, I recall reading years ago an analogy he used of a man walking a dog in (if I recall correctly) regard to our relationship to God.....can you tell me what book this is in?  I have Mere Chrisitianity, and can't find it there.

I think of God as outside time but able to operate within it if He wishes.  My thinking is that He created time.  Therefore, time is to Him an effect, a construct imposed on His creation.  Bottom line, your assesment, "God is not without Time, it just does not affect him." seems reasonable.

God bless you in your walk.

nikolai_42 · Mar 7, 2003

3rd March 2003 at 10:48 PM caley said this in Post #1

If there are infinite dimensions, and Time is the fourth dimension, what is the fifth?  It seems reasonable that if Time is the fourth, then Probability, or what happens throughout Time is the fifth, which leads us to the idea of parallel universes/alternate realities.  If this is true, then there are infinite alternate realities, and infinite manifestations of every person that has ever existed or ever will exist.

How does this tie into the subject line?  Well, Christ said that he came to save all humanity, yet he also made it very clear that some would be condemned.  How can both of these statements be true?  The idea of alternate realities makes it possible that both are equally true.  When we are saved, we become something new, possibly even pandimensional.  If we change to pandimensionality, then we encompass the fifth dimension, which means that every manifestation of us in every alternate reality becomes synthesized.  However, some of those manifestations (if they are indeed infinite) will be "evil" and hence condemned.  Our goal as Christians is to be one of the manifestations of our self that is "good" and hence gets to become part of the whole of our self, pandimensional, and eternally one with the Father. 

 
...or am I thinking too hard?

 I think you might be on to something, but I don't think thinking about it advances one spiritually.

 But while you are on this topic, I should point out that God is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent etc... because he is above us (dimensionally, he has been supposed to be 10-dimensional) and what he does transcends time. In addition, the will of man to accomplish what he wants is, in the end, limited by God. God is the ONLY being who wills AND DOES of His own good pleasure. We only become the righteousness of God when we stop laying claim to our free will (which really isn't 'free' as in able to operate without influence) and allow Christ to be our righteousness. All other striving is useless because one pandimensional wrong turn and the consequences are mortifying! That condemnation you mention is not to be desired AT ALL. But there is therefore, now no condemnation, for those who are in Christ Jesus. He IS the way...we cannot be good on our own.

Blackhawk · Mar 7, 2003

Today at 12:35 PM Bernie02 said this in Post #16

Blackhawk,

YOU: "It is clear that no one is good so are we all Condemmed completely then?  If we look at the Bible's theology of man we find that if man got what he deserved then all men would be in hell right now.  or worse.  If that is possible."

I thought the answer was obvious: the evil within us is condemned to die.  God has power over death -- what did Jesus teach about death?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (Jn 12:24)

Life is brought forth from death.  This is the basic salvation message.  Look at the valley of dry bones in Ezek 37. 

Okay I have no problem with God having the power over death and that we must die in order for Christ's life to come into us.  I guess when I looked at the first post it was like God klls the bad in us and leaves the good.  The problem with that is there is no good until salvation and all that comes from Christ.  So I have no problem with your statement that we live because we die with Christ and are ressurrected to a new life in Him.  Gal. 2:20

Bernie02 · Mar 7, 2003

Yes, I see what you're saying Blackhawk.  I agree, there is no goodness in us to hang on to until He creates it. 

Ben johnson · Mar 7, 2003

To say that "man has inherent good" is to deny the power of the Cross---and to embrace the heretical, "Pelagianism". While Romans3 says "all have sinned and fall short of God's glory", you must realize that Rom3 is a LAMENT---not THEOLOGICAL DICTATE. Rom3 quotes Psalm 14 & 53---these are also LAMENTS. Jeremiah 29:11-13 clearly says, "you will seek Me and you will FIND Me, when you seek with all your heart". Which then is the truth? That no one seeks? Or seek Me and I WILL BE FOUND BY YOU? The laments of Psalms 14&53 & Rom3, are exageration. If Jesus drags ALL MEN to Himself (Jn12:32), then each man CAN seek Him, or NOT...

Salvation is presented to the Gospel to "all who WILL believe in Christ"...

RE Dimensions: most physicists discuss a maximum of 11. The FIFTH dimension is the fourth SPATIAL dimension. Think "length, width, height, and DEPTH". (We have a little trouble conceiving of the idea of "four mutually perpendicular lines").

I do not buy the concept of "Schroedinger's Cat"---infinite interfering universes. But I am ill-equipped to explain the electron-interference and the polarizing experiments*. In the TV show, "Sliders", there were infinite parallel universes (a story line explored by an episode of Star Trek TNG). There is a Scripture, that "He holds the Universe together"---I strongly suspect that it is active involvement by GOD in atomic physics that ballances the particle distribution. Just opinion.

I think in all of reality, there is only ONE CALEY. And Caley's goal is NOT "to be one of the manifestations of our self that is "good" and hence gets to become part of the whole of our self, pandimensional, and eternally one with the Father. ---Caley's goal is to RECEIVE CHRIST, and begin the fellowship, the lifelong walk that brings much joy.

...lifelong walk that changes NOT AT ALL by death---for the fellowship with our beloved Creater is FOREVER!!!

--------------------------------------------------------
* Schroedinger's Cat is a thought-experiment, that proposes a cat-in-a-box, and a phial of poison (which is connected to a 50% probability smash-mechanism), cannot be considered to be a DEAD CAT or a LIVE CAT until the box is OPENED and the cat OBSERVED. For instance, directing a beam of electrons at a DOUBLE SLIT APERTURE, produces the classic wave-interference-pattern on the target screen. BUT---reduce the flux so that only one electron at a time passes the slits, the interference still exists. They say that in ONE universe, the electron passes through the LEFT slit; and in the SECOND unverse it passes through the RIGHT slit---thus, though only one electron travels, the two universes interfere. And by observing WHICH slit the electron passes, the interference pattern collapses, and the "double-bell-simple-probability" (think of the pattern produced by a machine-gun firing at two slits) manifests.

With two pair of polarized sunglasses, you can easily demonstrate the "Polarizing Experiment". Cross two polarizes 90 degrees, and the light through the two is ZERO (black). Yet, insert a THIRD polarizer at 45 degrees to the OTHER TWO, and 25% transmission occurs (it's really spooky---try it!). The theory is that in UNIVERSE ONE (polarizers #s 1 and 2), the net transmission is 50%, which then overlaps on UNIVERSE TWO (polarizers #s 2 and 3), which is ALSO 50%; so passing through two 50% systems, the total is 25%.

All are saved, yet some are condemned

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