Do you think it's Christian to own guns?

nomadictheist

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We still have some guns in Australia unfortunately but of course nothing compared to what you have. Deaths from guns here is minimal in comparison - and so many kids! Your poor kids take their lives in their hands when they attend colleges while their parents just look on and nod their heads

Just like those 7 kids who were stabbed to death by their mother in Australia, or the one who was found in a suitcase on the side of the road who died a "violent" death...

If you look at the statistics, the U.S. and Australia are pretty similar when it comes to mortality rates - and the U.S. would be lower if people who think like you didn't forbid people to carry on campus. Having "gun free zones" means having a perfect place for an evil person with a gun to go on a shooting spree - and that's exactly what we're seeing.

But the first thing evil governments do is disarm their people - people are much better controlled if they can't fight back.
 
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malvina

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The story about Keyes and the anthem is taught in elementary school American History.

I knew it malvina reads conspiracy theories and then uses them to insult Americans. Then lectures American Christians about what are the acceptable behaviors of a Christian. :doh:
There are loonie tunes everywhere, even in Australia.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that has seen them and the people posting the videos are gun lobbyists of course
 
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Biblicist

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The story about Keyes and the anthem is taught in elementary school American History.
Thanks for that. Since that conversation with the Park Ranger at Ft.McHenry I began to wonder about this particularly as I could not recall ever coming across any discussions or articles about the history of the US National Anthem. It was something that I've wanted to ask for a while but where I felt silly asking the question.

I knew it malvina reads conspiracy theories and then uses them to insult Americans. Then lectures American Christians about what are the acceptable behaviors of a Christian. :doh:
There are loonie tunes everywhere, even in Australia.
As an Australian, hypothetically speaking, before any Australians are allowed to comment on the gun issue in the US, we should be compelled to undergo a "US History and Culture 101" course before we are allowed to speak. What Malvina is failing to understand (as do most Australians) is that guns are not the cause where the root issue is with the growing collapse of the moral base of the US, which as I've said on a number of occasions on this thread, that as the US regularly sorts out its issues through force (sorry to give and take away at the same time), then the gun, the knife, a bomb or whatever, they are simply a means to express anger and hatred.

As to the question, should a Christian own a gun, well that is simply irrelevant as the situation in the US is vastly different to that of Australia, the two simply cannot be compared. The New Testament certainly supports not only the owning of weapons, but where appropriate and when allowed by Law, these weapons may also be carried on our person and when needed they can be used to apply lethal force - now that's Bible 101!
 
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Biblicist

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I'm glad I'm not the only one that has seen them and the people posting the videos are gun lobbyists of course
Malvina, it does seem that you might need to gain a better understanding of the very complex gun ownership question in the US, where for many private gun owners the NRA seems to be almost irrelevant to their daily lives and as for being gun-lobbyists then this is a far more complicated matter.

There are certainly many groups who will walk around their home towns (either alone or in groups) where they will open-carry, not only with side-arms but also with long-guns so that they can educate the public to let them know that it is a right that most Americans have; this is similar to how there have been many activists or even average citizens who have been photographing police over recent years where the often poorly trained police have treated them worse than those who carry sidearms. This has helped to change numerous draconian Laws which the police and government have tried to hide behind, where as a result of their valuable efforts they have been able to keep the police far more accountable. In more recent years, the presence of gun carrying civilians walking the streets has helped to change attitudes toward the private ownership of guns; and from what I can tell, the citizens of the US will never tolerate their governments (often Left leaning) to take away their weapons - which is something that they should be commended for.

Personally, if I were to walk down a US street where I were to come across a group of open-carry activists, then I would definitely feel far more comfortable!
 
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malvina

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Malvina, it does seem that you might need to gain a better understanding of the very complex gun ownership question in the US, where for many private gun owners the NRA seems to be almost irrelevant to their daily lives and as for being gun-lobbyists then this is a far more complicated matter.

There are certainly many groups who will walk around their home towns (either alone or in groups) where they will open-carry, not only with side-arms but also with long-guns so that they can educate the public to let them know that it is a right that most Americans have; this is similar to how there have been many activists or even average citizens who have been photographing police over recent years where the often poorly trained police have treated them worse than those who carry sidearms. This has helped to change numerous draconian Laws which the police and government have tried to hide behind, where as a result of their valuable efforts they have been able to keep the police far more accountable. In more recent years, the presence of gun carrying civilians walking the streets has helped to change attitudes toward the private ownership of guns; and from what I can tell, the citizens of the US will never tolerate their governments (often Left leaning) to take away their weapons - which is something that they should be commended for.

Personally, if I were to walk down a US street where I were to come across a group of open-carry activists, then I would definitely feel far more comfortable!

Well I tried to end the thread earlier on but it just goes on and on and I find it very upsetting.
The thing is the way things are going on in the world the same problems will be elsewhere so it wont make much difference violence is increasing everywhere and gun-owners will be the fashion I'm just glad we don't have many here allowing our kids to be safer in their schools
 
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cyberlizard

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consider the words of Jesus... If you knew when the thief was planning on breaking in during the night you would wake up for him and be prepared... I take it that it was not to simply say hello and feel free to take my goods.


Steve


p.s. I am in the UK and I do not know a single person who owns a proper firearm except for shooting grouse.
 
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RDKirk

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Let me add that while I believe that it's ok for a believer to have a gun, I am concerned about the militant attitude of some. There seems to be an almost gleeful possibility of shooting someone. In my opinion, that is what is un-Christlike, not the ownership of the gun itself. If I were to become a gun owner, which at the moment I am not, the thought of actually having to use as defense it would terrify me. In what I've seen with some it's like they can't wait to get to use it on someone.

Yes. See my post here:

Gospel and gun are mutually exclusive
 
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expos4ever

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The first "you need to take these things because the scriptures says I'll be numbered with the transgressors, so you must become transgressors by having money belts, bags, and swords."
Or second "you need to take this things because what the scriptures say about me being counted as a criminal are about to happen, and this time you'll need supplies for food and something to deter bandits and/or defend yourself with."

I completely agree that each of these interpretations is at least plausible. However, I think the textual evidence supports my position better, although I concede the case is not clear. Here is the text in the NASB:
And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing." 36And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.37For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'And He was numbered with transgressors'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment."

One problem with your reading is that it has Jesus giving the provisioning instructions (belt, bag, sword) not so that Jesus will be seen as a transgressor but rather because of a second-order consequence of Jesus being seen as a transgressor on other grounds (you refer to Jesus being accused of blasphemy as these other grounds). Here are some problems with this:

1. If Jesus is thinking in terms of His being seen as a transgressor for reasons other than being part of armed band and is giving the provisioning instruction for the specific reason that his followers will soon be on their own, His actual words connecting this putative provisioning instruction to His being seen a transgressor are misleading to us, the intended audience for the gospel writer’s account. And it is pretty clear why. Luke knows that Jesus needs to go to the cross at a time of Jesus’s own choosing (Jesus very deliberately chooses Passover as the time to do so). Therefore, there is clearly a motive for Jesus to get Himself arrested and being seen in armed company is a great pretext for being arrested. So you can see how if Luke is recounting something related to provisioning followers for a time on their own, he (Luke) presents Jesus as saying something that could easily be misunderstood as an instruction to make Jesus look like a transgressor to get Himself arrested.

2. Even apart from the confusion engendered per item 1, it is at least a little odd that Jesus would connect his being seen as a transgressor to what is clearly a second order consequence of His being seen as a transgressor – namely that His followers will soon be on their own. There are many consequences of Jesus being seen as a transgressor, not just that His followers will be on their own. To be fair, though, one could indeed argue that the reference to a preceding provisioning instruction (verse 35) will lead the reader to conclude that the matter at issue here is, indeed the question of the followers being sent out. However, if you look at a literal translation, it seems at least arguable that Jesus deliberately connects only the sword (to the exclusion of the belt and purse) to the thing about Jesus being seen as a transgressor:
Then said he to them, `But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take [it] up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword,37for I say to you, that yet this that hath been written it behoveth to be fulfilled in me: And with lawless ones he was reckoned, for also the things concerning me have an end.'

I draw attention to the semi-colon after “scrip”; to me, this suggests that Jesus is done with the belt and purse stuff and only connects the sword to Jesus being seen as a transgressor. If my inference is correct, the argument becomes much stronger that Jesus is not, after all, giving a provisioning instruction. However, I concede this is not a particular powerful argument, and I think we need some scholar who can speak authoritatively as to how the original text would read vis a vis my proposal that the transgressor bit only connects to the sword, and not to the belt and purse.

3. The “two swords is enough” statement. While again not definitive, I believe this qualification tends to support my view precisely because while two swords in a group are certainly enough to make Jesus look like a transgressor, it is not really enough for self-defence. And if the disciples were expected to disperse, the self-defence argument becomes really implausible because under such a scenario you would expect Jesus to instruct everyone to get a sword. But even if the disciples stay together, I suggest that saying “two is enough” works against “self-defence” argument since you would normally expect that each person should be armed, even if travelling in a group. I do not know how many followers we are talking about here, but two swords seems to fall quite short of what would be needed for self-defence.
4. Finally, I believe that believing the swords are recommended for self-defence on the road is really not consistent with Jesus’s rather consistent pacifist line (“love your enemies”, “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword”, and other stuff).
Having said all this, I repeat that you are the first person to raise what I think to be plausible counterargument to what I am suggesting. So even though I think the evidence still tilts us towards the view I am proposing, I concede that your argument is not without its merits.

Note that I realize that I have not addressed all of the elements of your position – I will, but this post is already very long.
 
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Rik Brooks

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I am a Christian. I own several firearms. I own one shotgun for hunting and two .22 calibre rifles. A .22 calibre bullet is very small (and cheap which is why I like that rifle). The .22 calibres are for fun. I shoot at targets on hay bales. The rifle barely makes a pop and has almost no kick at all.

It is fun.

I’ve also gone skeet shooting with my shotgun but that puppy has a kick and I can only fire it several times before I turn to my .22.

On the other hand I would like to remind you what Isoruku Yamamoto said that it would be foolish to invade America because there would be an American with a gun behind every blade of grass. While that’s an exaggeration I could say that in many cases there would be an American behind most trees. Gun ownership protects our country and way of life.

Si vis pacem para bellum

A thought crosses my mind. I have wandered astray. The answer is

"Of course a person can be a Christian and a gun owner. The Bible does not prohibit owning weapons."
 
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nomadictheist

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I completely agree that each of these interpretations is at least plausible. However, I think the textual evidence supports my position better, although I concede the case is not clear. Here is the text in the NASB:
And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing." 36And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.37For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'And He was numbered with transgressors'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment."

One problem with your reading is that it has Jesus giving the provisioning instructions (belt, bag, sword) not so that Jesus will be seen as a transgressor but rather because of a second-order consequence of Jesus being seen as a transgressor on other grounds (you refer to Jesus being accused of blasphemy as these other grounds). Here are some problems with this:

1. If Jesus is thinking in terms of His being seen as a transgressor for reasons other than being part of armed band and is giving the provisioning instruction for the specific reason that his followers will soon be on their own, His actual words connecting this putative provisioning instruction to His being seen a transgressor are misleading to us, the intended audience for the gospel writer’s account. And it is pretty clear why. Luke knows that Jesus needs to go to the cross at a time of Jesus’s own choosing (Jesus very deliberately chooses Passover as the time to do so). Therefore, there is clearly a motive for Jesus to get Himself arrested and being seen in armed company is a great pretext for being arrested. So you can see how if Luke is recounting something related to provisioning followers for a time on their own, he (Luke) presents Jesus as saying something that could easily be misunderstood as an instruction to make Jesus look like a transgressor to get Himself arrested.

2. Even apart from the confusion engendered per item 1, it is at least a little odd that Jesus would connect his being seen as a transgressor to what is clearly a second order consequence of His being seen as a transgressor – namely that His followers will soon be on their own. There are many consequences of Jesus being seen as a transgressor, not just that His followers will be on their own. To be fair, though, one could indeed argue that the reference to a preceding provisioning instruction (verse 35) will lead the reader to conclude that the matter at issue here is, indeed the question of the followers being sent out. However, if you look at a literal translation, it seems at least arguable that Jesus deliberately connects only the sword (to the exclusion of the belt and purse) to the thing about Jesus being seen as a transgressor:
Then said he to them, `But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take [it] up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword,37for I say to you, that yet this that hath been written it behoveth to be fulfilled in me: And with lawless ones he was reckoned, for also the things concerning me have an end.'

I draw attention to the semi-colon after “scrip”; to me, this suggests that Jesus is done with the belt and purse stuff and only connects the sword to Jesus being seen as a transgressor. If my inference is correct, the argument becomes much stronger that Jesus is not, after all, giving a provisioning instruction. However, I concede this is not a particular powerful argument, and I think we need some scholar who can speak authoritatively as to how the original text would read vis a vis my proposal that the transgressor bit only connects to the sword, and not to the belt and purse.

3. The “two swords is enough” statement. While again not definitive, I believe this qualification tends to support my view precisely because while two swords in a group are certainly enough to make Jesus look like a transgressor, it is not really enough for self-defence. And if the disciples were expected to disperse, the self-defence argument becomes really implausible because under such a scenario you would expect Jesus to instruct everyone to get a sword. But even if the disciples stay together, I suggest that saying “two is enough” works against “self-defence” argument since you would normally expect that each person should be armed, even if travelling in a group. I do not know how many followers we are talking about here, but two swords seems to fall quite short of what would be needed for self-defence.
4. Finally, I believe that believing the swords are recommended for self-defence on the road is really not consistent with Jesus’s rather consistent pacifist line (“love your enemies”, “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword”, and other stuff).
Having said all this, I repeat that you are the first person to raise what I think to be plausible counterargument to what I am suggesting. So even though I think the evidence still tilts us towards the view I am proposing, I concede that your argument is not without its merits.

Note that I realize that I have not addressed all of the elements of your position – I will, but this post is already very long.
While I realize that there is more coming, There are a couple of notes that I would like to impose beforehand:

1. Jesus did tell everyone to buy a sword. He said "Let the one who does not have a sword go sell his cloak and buy one." Many scholars agree that when Jesus says "it is enough" (He didn't say "two swords are enough") He was saying "we've talked about this enough." It wasn't about the swords - it was about Him trying - again - to tell them about His coming suffering and death, and their complete lack of understanding.

Also, this text would only be misleading if you interpret His meaning to be "go get swords because we have to become criminals in order for the law to be fulfilled." You would think the disciples would've reacted more to His instruction to get swords if carrying weapons made you criminals in that time and place, since He always instructed them to obey the law.

However, if you take it at face value, looking to the text preceding it, as a contrast of what was to come to what was before (before you went out with nothing and had need of nothing, but now take these things that you will need when you go out again; because I'm about to be taken away from you and treated as a criminal). Why in this case would He single out a sword? Because of the things that He was telling them to take, the sword was the least likely for one to possess.

2. By the reckoning of most, it was not illegal to carry a sword outside of the city of Rome in the Roman empire. Therefore, being in the company of people carrying weapons would not be enough to number Him among the transgressors.

3. A semicolon is used to break up run-on sentences. That is why it is used twice here (there also appears a semicolon before "For I tell you..." A semicolon does not imply a separation of ideas anymore than a comma does (quite the opposite, in fact. The only reason to use a semicolon as opposed to a comma is to show a continuation of the same idea so closely that a period cannot be reasonably inserted).
 
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nomadictheist

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And one more note - the text shows that the priests and the temple elders were carrying swords also... "52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders, who had come out against him,“Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs?53 When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”"
 
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Isaiah55:6

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Sure why not? Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword. (Luke 22:36), He (Jesus) said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

* I should have read some previous posts before posting [emoji41]
 
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expos4ever

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While I realize that there is more coming, There are a couple of notes that I would like to impose beforehand:

1. Jesus did tell everyone to buy a sword. He said "Let the one who does not have a sword go sell his cloak and buy one." Many scholars agree that when Jesus says "it is enough" (He didn't say "two swords are enough") He was saying "we've talked about this enough." It wasn't about the swords - it was about Him trying - again - to tell them about His coming suffering and death, and their complete lack of understanding.
Can you point me to any such scholar? Clearly, what you are saying could indeed be true, but I would like a little more information.

Also, this text would only be misleading if you interpret His meaning to be "go get swords because we have to become criminals in order for the law to be fulfilled."
Not really; the text will also be misleading even if Jesus only wants to be seen as a criminal.

You would think the disciples would've reacted more to His instruction to get swords if carrying weapons made you criminals in that time and place, since He always instructed them to obey the law.
I don't see your argument here. First, even if it was perfectly legal for Jews to be armed to take up a sword certainly gives the impression that you are a troublemaker.

And about "obeying the law": I suspect that you are saying that Jesus would never instruct His followers to break the law or perhaps even to mislead others. Well, Jesus certainly "broke" the Law of Moses at least (in the sense that in declaring all foods clean, He clearly declared He thought He had the right to "overrule" the Law of Moses which definitely declared many foods unclean). And Jesus also misled people at times - He was highly evasive in responding to questioning at certain points. And I am not sure where we have Jesus instructing His followers to always obey the law of the land.

However, if you take it at face value, looking to the text preceding it, as a contrast of what was to come to what was before (before you went out with nothing and had need of nothing, but now take these things that you will need when you go out again; because I'm about to be taken away from you and treated as a criminal). Why in this case would He single out a sword? Because of the things that He was telling them to take, the sword was the least likely for one to possess.
You appear to assume that the sword instruction is part of the same package of instructions that include the belt and the bag - I am challenging that reading. What you assume certainly might be true - and if it is, your argument gains a lot of force - but my whole point by citing the Literal translation was that it is at least plausible that Jesus is effectively saying "Last time you needed nothing, but this time take a belt and bag....and (moving to a new topic) also get the sword so that I will be seen as a transgressor". I am by no means saying it is clear that this is how the passage should be read, but I think it's at least plausible, given the construction.

3. A semicolon is used to break up run-on sentences. That is why it is used twice here (there also appears a semicolon before "For I tell you..." A semicolon does not imply a separation of ideas anymore than a comma does (quite the opposite, in fact. The only reason to use a semicolon as opposed to a comma is to show a continuation of the same idea so closely that a period cannot be reasonably inserted).
This is certainly generally the case in English, so I see your point. However, I would like to know a little more about how a neutral expert on Greek would read the whole exchange as expressed in the original Greek - whether they would see the sword as part of the provisioning instruction. Again, I suspect you can understand that if you are right, the whole instruction is arguably a little misleading as I described in my point number 1.
 
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And one more note - the text shows that the priests and the temple elders were carrying swords also... "52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders, who had come out against him,“Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs?53 When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”"
True. I assume the point is that Jews were allowed to be armed and that for Jesus to instruct His followers to be armed would not be seen as "transgression"? If so, I don't think that challenges my take on things. It may be legal in some American state to walk around with a six-shooter on your hip, but it will certainly raise suspicion among the law enforcement community.

And I still realize I have not fully addressed all your points.
 
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nomadictheist

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Can you point me to any such scholar? Clearly, what you are saying could indeed be true, but I would like a little more information.


Not really; the text will also be misleading even if Jesus only wants to be seen as a criminal.


I don't see your argument here. First, even if it was perfectly legal for Jews to be armed to take up a sword certainly gives the impression that you are a troublemaker.

And about "obeying the law": I suspect that you are saying that Jesus would never instruct His followers to break the law or perhaps even to mislead others. Well, Jesus certainly "broke" the Law of Moses at least (in the sense that in declaring all foods clean, He clearly declared He thought He had the right to "overrule" the Law of Moses which definitely declared many foods unclean). And Jesus also misled people at times - He was highly evasive in responding to questioning at certain points. And I am not sure where we have Jesus instructing His followers to always obey the law of the land.


You appear to assume that the sword instruction is part of the same package of instructions that include the belt and the bag - I am challenging that reading. What you assume certainly might be true - and if it is, your argument gains a lot of force - but my whole point by citing the Literal translation was that it is at least plausible that Jesus is effectively saying "Last time you needed nothing, but this time take a belt and bag....and (moving to a new topic) also get the sword so that I will be seen as a transgressor". I am by no means saying it is clear that this is how the passage should be read, but I think it's at least plausible, given the construction.


This is certainly generally the case in English, so I see your point. However, I would like to know a little more about how a neutral expert on Greek would read the whole exchange as expressed in the original Greek - whether they would see the sword as part of the provisioning instruction. Again, I suspect you can understand that if you are right, the whole instruction is arguably a little misleading as I described in my point number 1.

There were certain times where Jesus instructs people to obey the law of the land. Most notably, the tax laws, but there is also, as I mentioned before, the part where He tells His disciples concerning the Pharisees to "observe all that they tell you, for they sit in the seat of Moses..."

I can see how if you read it with this end already in mind, it would be confusing. If you don't consider a sword for deterring robbers along the highway (common occurrences at the time) as well as for cutting food (the word "sword" in the Greek could be used for anything from a small dagger to a full-fledged sword) and other useful activities, then yes, I would say it's misleading. Also, if you read the semicolon to mean that He's moved on to a new topic, which is not normally the way you would read a semicolon, then yes, I agree.

But consider the entire account, then. Judas left to betray Jesus before He told His disciples to buy swords. That means the chief priests and temple elders came with their swords and clubs not knowing Jesus' disciples had two swords among them. The purpose of coming as they did - at night - was to take Jesus where there would be no crowds of people around to riot and revolt against them - something they could not afford. Nowhere in the trial - either by the Sanhedrin or with Pontus Pilate or Herod - does the fact that His disciples carried swords enter into the accusations brought against Him. That alone is a reason not to take the saying this way, because if the purpose of having them buy swords was to be "numbered among the transgressors" then the prophecy failed.

However, if you look at the company with which He was crucified, you will see that He was "numbered among the transgressors" in His death, having people who committed terrible crimes on either side of Him.
 
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Apart from those needing them for living - do you think people should own guns?
I cannot tie Jesus up with a gun-owner that has them for the sake of having them


Owning guns is irrelevant to Christianity. However, if your personal walk says you shouldn't own one, then don't own one. That is as far as it goes.
 
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