Ted, I expect you praise him with a Lyre and harp, since you wish to take Scripture out of context to fit your stance.
Psalms 71:22-23
I will also praise you with the harp
for your faithfulness, O my God;
I will sing praises to you with the lyre,
O Holy One of Israel.
My lips will shout for joy,
when I sing praises to you;
my soul also, which you have redeemed.
I would have put the entire chapter to demonstrate what the text says, but I think that is outside the ESV copyright rules.
The problem I have with the Scripture you included were out of context. This is the difficulty I run into. I brought this subject up because I believe all of Scripture is about the Gospel. There is a thread of the gospel weaved into the entirety of Scripture. Secondly, I believe historical. I don't believe Scripture should be used as some magic 8 ball, whether to Praise God or to get something.
The first question is about Christ. Is he named. A Christian has no more great fullness than to realize what Jesus paid for.
The second question is about clarity? Some Christians songs don't even make full sentences. When there isn't full sentences, you can't make a statement of agreement or disagreement. The song "Our God Reigns" has small bit of clarity. Sentence? I'm not a English guru but I think that qualifies. The song attempts to convince the opponent by the use of 3 words. It's True God does reign. Queen does a better job at extolling power in a song.
The 3rd question is probably as controversial as the 4th. Why? Because people like to have "experiences" or "feelings" they claim as their own outside of Scripture. They don't wNt to be validated by the Holy Spirit who works through the Scriptures. They want validations that are for them. This song has this kind of vibe but the repetitive nature of 3 words. Nothing special. No reasons for the three words.
The 4th question, you seem to despise. Your defensive over the law and the gospel. Or just the gospel, as if it's not the primary reason for the Scriptures. This is the whole existence for being Christians, due to the gospel. The song isn't about the gospel. Now if there were 2 or 3 gospel focused songs prior to this, maybe I'd be ok with it. At least context may be close at hand.
5. Is there any false teachings? You would be surprised false teachings do enter Christian songs. This song doesn't give a false teaching.
Hi mike,
Good to hear back from you. Well, I'm obviously not in agreement that my Scripture references were taken out of context, but...it is what it is. No, I don't think the words included that refer to singing praises to God with joy are in anyway meant to be understood that such singing of praises with joy has to be done only with the lyre and other instruments that are mentioned in the various places where the Scriptures speak of singing our praises with joy. They are included because those were the instruments used in those days. If a prophet were writing those words today they may very well say that it would be done with the guitar, the keyboard and drums. I'm not convinced that any grammarian would claim that the structure of the prose somehow relates the 'singing with joy' to the instruments mentioned.
You wrote:
The first question is about Christ. Is he named. A Christian has no more great fullness than to realize what Jesus paid for.
While I absolutely agree with the second sentence, I'm not so convinced that there is any given instruction or intent made within the Scriptures that our praises thus need always be about him. I'm of a mind that God approves when we praise Him for His righteousness, goodness, love, provision and His many other attributes and blessings that He provides for us. Is there some place in the Scriptures where you find that all praises for God, put to music, must be about Jesus? That's all I'm asking. Can you support this set of rules that you are attempting to lay as a burden upon God's people through the Scriptures? Or, is it rather just your personal feeling or private understanding about such praise?
Yes, you are correct that there is a thread woven throughout the Scriptures regarding the Savior, but not all of the Scriptures are about him. How you might carry this woven thread of the Scriptures over to some intention that says, "thus, all praise music must be about him," escapes me.
You then bring up the issue of clarity and while I agree that our praise music should be clear, my question regarding that is clear to whom? To others enjoined in the giving of praise or to God? I don't, however, agree that 'clarity' of singing is necessarily determined by complete grammatical syntax. The words 'our God reigns', however is a complete, grammatically correct sentence structure. It contains a subject and a verb. The subject is 'God' and the verb is 'reigns'.
Then you mention personal emotion as if that is some sort of bugaboo. Do you really not understand that all the Scriptural references of singing praise with joy is all about our emotion of joy. Joy is an emotion. It is a feeling and attitude of our person. The Scriptures are choc-a-bloc full of references to joy and it is always describing the emotion of the person or persons that it is directed towards.
When Jacob fled from Laban and Laban caught up with him, he asked, "Why did you run off secretly and deceive me? Why didn't you tell me, so I could send you away with joy and singing to the music of tambourines and harps?" Laban was describing how he would have experienced a completely different emotion about Jacob's leaving if he hadn't done so secretly. You're a reasonably intelligent person I'm guessing, and so you should be able to figure out, if you'd care to study more about 'joy' when spoken of in the Scriptures, that it is always about the emotions. Joy is an emotion and I believe that that emotion often is felt and expressed even through our relationship with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who gives us all the understandings of the great things that God has done for us that leads us to sing and shout for joy as we come to realize in the deepest parts of our understanding that we are God's. We belong to Him and there isn't, for me, any greater joy than realizing and understanding and being comforted by that knowledge. Joy is simply an emotional expression of that understanding and quite frankly the Scriptures seem to often speak of that being a good thing.
Finally, no, I am not defensive over the law and the gospel. I fully understand the law and its purpose and I fully understand the gospel and its purpose. However, I am not so convinced that our praises lifted up to our God in song must necessarily be about these two subjects. There is a plethora of God's attributes and care for us for which, I believe, we can and should sing God's praises.
As to your final note about there being songs that might be lifted up to God that contain some untruth about Him. Yes, I understand that and it is exactly why I included that final note in my previous post.
Listen, each is free to believe and to follow what they believe is the truth. Surely the Jews, when they were breaking down the law of the Sabbath into a strict set of rules burdened on the people thought that they were doing God's work. In their hearts they surely had good intentions for doing it. But the ultimate question is never whether our personal intentions are seen as good to us, but whether it is what God wants? So, I ask again the initial question: Is this attempt to establish a set of rules for what does or doesn't constitute worthy praise really in line with God's desire for us? Let the worshipers sing with gladdened hearts filled with the emotion of joy and let their praise be understood as being from their heart to God's heart and if you don't understand or agree that their joy and praise is worthy to God, let God be the judge. After all, you aren't Him.
If you want to use this 'cruncher' system to establish for yourself what is or isn't worthy praise, that's fine. I too, don't particularly enjoy all rhythms and genre and words of praise music for myself, but they aren't singing to me. But, if that system by which you determine what is or isn't worthy praise is based on some claim that all such music must be about Jesus or the law or the gospel, then you and I will have to part ways in this. Praise to God is praise to God. It can be about many different attributes and blessings that He shows to us. I can sing a song to God about His goodness and only about His goodness and never mention any of these subjects that you bring up, such as His goodness brings the dew and rain that we may have food; His goodness brings to us His mercy; His goodness showers us with love, protection and provision, and I believe that God will understand and accept my praise for what it is and how it is intended because God knows my heart.
Judge not another man's servant.
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Those who sing their praises to God are God's servants. We should not pass judgment on disputable matters and I would certainly consider that our determination of whether or not their praise is valid to God, a disputable matter.
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
