How do you view "the law"?

Forget the law. It's his WILL.
This is my view of the immutable Will of God as expressed in the medium of commandments (in other words, his law):

Devarim 30:

11Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

12It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

13Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

14No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

16For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,

18I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

20and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

End quote.

It appears the "golden rule" is a great way to sum up what is expected of those not committed to the full Will of God (Torah), based on various statements in the NT. However that is just the basic moral baseline you're born with. If the world is just supposed to keep the golden rule, then that COMPLETELY OBVIATES (1) the need for the Torah, and (2) the need for Yeshua.

1: If the Torah is done away with, why was it even given ? There's just too many logical problems arising from the abrogationist view, just far too many.

2: And just as importantly, why even send Yeshua ? The golden rule has been taught to the world by the Buddha and by Greek philosophers and basically everyone and their neighbor. Yeshua is portrayed as more than a sacrificial lamb. He was a TEACHER. But the antinomian interpretation in a way makes him a meaningless and superfluous teacher.

sickntired771 said:

As MJ or Jews do you keep the Halakha or do you believe Yeshua supercedes that and aren't obliged? How and when should we incorporate traditional customs into our lives?

I believe Yeshua supercedes the law and I follow the golden rule but I am not sure what other laws and traditions I should observe and at what point am I doing things that dismiss everything Yeshua came for?

Click to expand...

Yeshua lived it and we're told to live the way He did. 1 John 2:6

Paul said he lived it too. Philippians 3:6, Acts of the Apostles 24:14, Acts of the Apostles 25:8, Romans 7:25, Romans 3:31, Romans 7:22

Which traditions did Yeshua and Paul keep? If you keep any of those traditions you are in no way dismissing anything Yeshua did.

It's a scriptural misunderstanding to think keeping God's laws nullifies what Yeshua did. Yeshua told us to keep God's laws and teach others to do so. Matthew 5:19

If you wonder if a Halaka instruction is scriptural, ask someone which scripture it's based on.

All of Paul's anti-law talk was about keeping the law for salvation. Galatians 3:21

We are saved, so we keep the laws and halaka out of love for God and His command for us to live holy. 1 Peter 1:16, Leviticus 20:26

The golden rule doesn't replace the law and halaka, it gives us God's attitude toward keeping His laws and halaka. John 14:15, 1 Corinthians 13:3, 1 Corinthians 16:14

USE THE LAW PROPERLY - NOT FOR SALVATION, BUT FOR HOLY LIVING
"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." - Romans 7:12

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully." - 1 Timothy 1:8

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31


YESHUA COMMANDS IT
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." - John 14:15, John 14:10


YESHUA WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:23

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness." - Matthew 13:41

"Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." - Matthew 23:28

"Jesus found the man at the Temple [area] and said to him, “See, you are well now. ·Stop sinning.” " - John 5:14

"Jesus said, “I also don’t ·judge you guilty [condemn you]. ·You may go now, but don’t sin anymore." " - John 8:11


PAUL WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness." - Romans 6:19

"What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?" - 2 Corinthians 6:14

"The law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers." - 1 Timothy 1:9

"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore God has anointed you." - Hebrews 1:9, Psalms 45:7

"Come back to your right way of thinking [Come to your senses; or Sober up as you should] and stop sinning. Some of you ·do not know [or are ignorant about] God—I say this to shame you." - 1 Corinthians 15:34


PAUL SAID HE KEPT THE LAW BLAMELESSLY
"If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4, Philippians 3:6


JOHN SAID WE SHOULD WALK LIKE YESHUA DID
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6


MOSES, DAVID, PAUL, AND JOHN SAY THERE IS FORGIVENESS FOR SINS
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered." - Romans 4:7, Psalms 32:1

"So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him." - Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:35, Leviticus 5:10,

"Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." - Titus 2:14

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." - Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:17

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." - 1 John 3:4

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9


YESHUA PROMOTES TORAH AND RENEWED COVENANT TOGETHER
"Then Jesus said to them, “So every ·teacher of the law [scribe] who has ·been taught about [become a disciple of] the kingdom of heaven is like the ·owner [head] of a house. He brings out both new things and old things ·he has saved [from his treasure/storeroom; knowledge of the TNK provides insight into Jesus’ “new” message of the kingdom of God].” " - Matthew 13:52

"And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). 38 This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. 40 All the law and the ·writings of the prophets [prophets] ·depend [are based; hang] on these two commands." - Matthew 22:37-40


THE APOSTLES PROMOTE TORAH AND FAITH TOGETHER
"So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead)." - James 2:17

"For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead." - James 2:26

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31


THE BIBLE PROMOTES TORAH AND GRACE TOGETHER
John 17:17, Psalms 119:160, John 1:14, John 1:17, Colossians 1:6, 2 John 1:3, Genesis 24:27, 2 Samuel 15:20, Proverbs 3:3, Proverbs 16:6, Micah 7:20


GRACE UNDER TORAH
Psalms 32:2, Psalms 51:10, Psalms 109:26, 1 Chronicles 16:34, Ezra 9:9, Nehemiah 9:31-32, Nehemiah 13:22, Psalms 5:7, Psalms 23:6, Psalms 33:18, Psalms 33:22, Psalms 36:5, Psalms 52:8, Psalms 59:17, Psalms 86:15, Psalms 98:3, Psalms 100:5, Psalms 105:8, Psalms 136, Proverbs 28:13, Isaiah 14:1, Isaiah 54:8-10, Isaiah 55:7, Jeremiah 31:20, Ezekiel 39:25, Daniel 9:9, Hosea 1:7-8, Micah 7:18-20, Zechariah 1:16, Zechariah 10:6, Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:35, Leviticus 5:10

Here's a really good web page listing the 613 laws, grouping them by category: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

If you look through the laws listed on this web page, I'm sure you'll find some that jump out at you.

Look at the wisdom, fairness, thoughtfulness of each of God's laws.

If everyone kept the purity laws there would have been no black plague in 1348 or staff disease in hospitals today or epidemics in 3rd world countries.

If everyone stopped eating carnivores and scavengers, think of how their health would improve.

If everyone followed the Worship Yahweh laws, we'd all be spiritual giants.

If everyone followed the duties to our fellowman laws this world would be a wonderful place to live.

Many of the judgement and lawsuit laws are already a part of our civil laws, which could be dramatically improved if we'd add ALL of God's civil laws into our civil laws.

Think of the true justice we'd have in our courts if the judges followed God's laws for the conduct of judges.

NOTE: this web page is trying to tell us NOT to follow God's laws today. Ignore that part. Just use the list to see what types of laws there are. I chose this list because it did the best job of clarifying what kinds of laws God gave.

Here's some other lists: http://www.hisglory.us/DOCUMENTS/613_biblical_laws.htm, http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm, http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm, http://therefinersfire.org/original_commandments1.htm.

As you can see, there's different laws (halaka) for different purposes. Not every law is for every person.

Jews and MJs observe the laws (halaka) that apply to them.

It's rewarding to find out what God asks of us, and then do it. The benefits of applying God's wisdom to our daily life is outstanding. 1 Peter 1:16

Can you do all the ones that apply to you? Eventually, but you have to start by adding one at a time as Acts of the Apostles 15 says.

I started with Sabbath laws (halaka) and food laws (halaka) and saw excellent results immediately.

Doing the laws with joy and faith for the love of God is powerful. Doing them for salvation (self-righteousness) is impossible, because the minute you break one you've broken them all, and there goes your salvation (self-righteousness).

If you're doing them for the love of God, and you slip up, you can ask God to help you and go at it again. What beginner doesn't make mistakes? What pro doesn't make mistakes? The laws (halaka) are for our benefit, not our bondage.

Are the laws a duty and obligation for us? No, they are the wisdom of the Eternal God who created us and loves us and gives us His OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS for the best life here on earth.

Did Yeshua cancel the laws (halaka)? No. He gave us instructions on faith, joy, and love so that we apply the laws (halaka) properly. Laws without faith, joy, and love are bondage.

Following the Law doesn't get us into heaven. The Torah never even mentions heaven. Heaven is gained through repentence, by the grace of God. We follow the Law because it is our covenant and we love God.

sickntired771 said:

As MJ or Jews do you keep the Halakha or do you believe Yeshua supercedes that and aren't obliged? How and when should we incorporate traditional customs into our lives?

I believe Yeshua supercedes the law and I follow the golden rule but I am not sure what other laws and traditions I should observe and at what point am I doing things that dismiss everything Yeshua came for?

Click to expand...

This forum is very confused about this topic. Every person pretty much has their own spin on it and most people here are wrong.

My view, which is sane , is simple. Keep the laws in the whole Bible that apply to you. Observe them in a traditional manner if applicable.

sickntired771 said:

As MJ or Jews do you keep the Halakha or do you believe Yeshua supercedes that and aren't obliged? How and when should we incorporate traditional customs into our lives?

I believe Yeshua supercedes the law and I follow the golden rule but I am not sure what other laws and traditions I should observe and at what point am I doing things that dismiss everything Yeshua came for?

Click to expand...

I realize that your post was directed to MJ / Jews, but the thread seems to bounce around a little. Try this:

Romans 6:14

“For sin (singular; original; sinful nature) shall not have dominion over you (shall not reign over you, shall not control you) for ye are not under the law, but under Grace.”

Through God's Amazing Grace the Holy Spirit enables you to keep the sinful nature at bay.

What happened?

2000 BC the call of Abram of Ur, not far from the awesome, beautiful, wondrous Garden of Eden, now smothered by the desert. He had a son named Isaac, a grandson named Jacob. Jacob had 12 sons. The Hebrew folk approached the Promised Land, then turned back, into Egypt. Egyptian captivity, slavery. Escape. Led out of Egypt by Moses as a people group, a Nation of Hebrews. The Law given to Moses on Mount Sinai. When was that? 20,000 years ago? 10,000? No ... 1,600 years before the betrayal, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ (Messiah; the Anointed). What year is this? 2015. Not that long ago. Do the math.

Can you chart / date / identify the who, what, when, where?

Creation.
Perfection.
Disobedience.
Destruction.
Abraham (Grace).
Disobedience.
Moses (Law, severe, strict, minus Grace).
Disobedience.

The penalty for denying, even defying the Law? Inventing gods? Separation from God.

The intervention of Jesus Anointed. What was His purpose?

The Most Holy One Himself became the Law, announcing once again the Abrahamic Covenant of Grace through Faith, apart from Law.

What to do?

Non-Christians, after studying the scriptures listed, below, go to the Throne of Grace in Jesus, Romans 10:8-13.

Christians? Been there, done that. You live your life in the Presence of the Holy Spirit, He overcoming daily sins (adjective; verb), Our Lord having already overcome original sin (noun), the latter satisfied at the Cross. Salvation is by Grace through Faith, apart from Law, Ephesians 2:8-9. (No "Yes, but" please.) HE is the Way, the Truth, the Life. not Law, not Jew, not Gentile, not some racial construct, not "religion" in any expression. (Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal relationship of the individual in the Body of Christ with Jesus the Anointed by Grace through faith.)

Check it out:

Genesis 1:1
John 1:1-5
John 3:16-17
John 5:24
John 14:6
Romans 6:14
Ephesians 2:8-9
Hebrews 1:1-4
1 John 1:1-4
Romans 10:8-13

Be blessed!

ContraMundum said:

This forum is very confused about this topic. Every person pretty much has their own spin on it and most people here are wrong.

My view, which is sane , is simple. Keep the laws in the whole Bible that apply to you. Observe them in a traditional manner if applicable.

Click to expand...

Incredible arrogance, but not surprising. Ironically that is probably the predominant view of the members here.

ContraMundum said:

This forum is very confused about this topic. Every person pretty much has their own spin on it and most people here are wrong.

My view, which is sane , is simple. Keep the laws in the whole Bible that apply to you. Observe them in a traditional manner if applicable.

Click to expand...

That sounds reasonable. I thought that was the view of most of us MJs?

BelieveTheWord said:

Incredible arrogance, but not surprising. Ironically that is probably the predominant view of the members here.

Click to expand...

What part do you disagree with?

"Keep the laws in the whole Bible that apply to you" sounds like MJ theology in a nutshell.

"Observe them in a traditional manner if applicable" leaves a lot of flexibility for diversified expression.

Truthfrees said:

That sounds reasonable. I thought that was the view of most of us MJs?

What part do you disagree with?

"Keep the laws in the whole Bible that apply to you" sounds like MJ theology in a nutshell.

"Observe them in a traditional manner if applicable" leaves a lot of flexibility for diversified expression.

Click to expand...

For whatever reason CM doesn't believe the Torah applies to gentiles, last I talked with him. BelievetheWord probably called him arrogant for the way he presented himself as one of the few sane people here. If he felt his view was MJ theology in a nutshell he probably wouldn't define himself in opposition to or distance himself from the majority of MJs the way he did.

Truthfrees said:

USE THE LAW PROPERLY - NOT FOR SALVATION, BUT FOR HOLY LIVING...

Click to expand...

A very, very well constructed text. This is the type of stuff that deserves to be made into a (good) pamphlet. What I mean is, it has a very powerful but concise and to the point message.

Truthfrees said:

Here's a really good web page listing the 613 laws, grouping them by category: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

If you look through the laws listed on this web page, I'm sure you'll find some that jump out at you.

Look at the wisdom, fairness, thoughtfulness of each of God's laws.

If everyone kept the purity laws there would have been no black plague in 1348 or staff disease in hospitals today or epidemics in 3rd world countries.

If everyone stopped eating carnivores and scavengers, think of how their health would improve.

If everyone followed the Worship Yahweh laws, we'd all be spiritual giants.

If everyone followed the duties to our fellowman laws this world would be a wonderful place to live.

Many of the judgement and lawsuit laws are already a part of our civil laws, which could be dramatically improved if we'd add ALL of God's civil laws into our civil laws.

Think of the true justice we'd have in our courts if the judges followed God's laws for the conduct of judges.

NOTE: this web page is trying to tell us NOT to follow God's laws today. Ignore that part. Just use the list to see what types of laws there are. I chose this list because it did the best job of clarifying what kinds of laws God gave.

Here's some other lists: http://www.hisglory.us/DOCUMENTS/613_biblical_laws.htm, http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm, http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm, http://therefinersfire.org/original_commandments1.htm.

As you can see, there's different laws (halaka) for different purposes. Not every law is for every person.

Jews and MJs observe the laws (halaka) that apply to them.

It's rewarding to find out what God asks of us, and then do it. The benefits of applying God's wisdom to our daily life is outstanding. 1 Peter 1:16

Can you do all the ones that apply to you? Eventually, but you have to start by adding one at a time as Acts of the Apostles 15 says.

I started with Sabbath laws (halaka) and food laws (halaka) and saw excellent results immediately.

Doing the laws with joy and faith for the love of God is powerful. Doing them for salvation (self-righteousness) is impossible, because the minute you break one you've broken them all, and there goes your salvation (self-righteousness).

If you're doing them for the love of God, and you slip up, you can ask God to help you and go at it again. What beginner doesn't make mistakes? What pro doesn't make mistakes? The laws (halaka) are for our benefit, not our bondage.

Are the laws a duty and obligation for us? No, they are the wisdom of the Eternal God who created us and loves us and gives us His OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS for the best life here on earth.

Did Yeshua cancel the laws (halaka)? No. He gave us instructions on faith, joy, and love so that we apply the laws (halaka) properly. Laws without faith, joy, and love are bondage.

Click to expand...

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Truthfrees said:

All of Paul's anti-law talk was about keeping the law for salvation. Galatians 3:21

Click to expand...

There's actually a lot that could be said as to what Paul was really doing.. As shown in another thread, Paul is arguing against Essene/Qumranic influence in Galatia, but on a deeper level, it all has to do with God's omnipotence. He is the DOER of good acts.

Truthfrees said:

Yeshua lived it and we're told to live the way He did. 1 John 2:6

Paul said he lived it too. Philippians 3:6, Acts of the Apostles 24:14, Acts of the Apostles 25:8, Romans 7:25, Romans 3:31, Romans 7:22

Which traditions did Yeshua and Paul keep? If you keep any of those traditions you are in no way dismissing anything Yeshua did.

It's a scriptural misunderstanding to think keeping God's laws nullifies what Yeshua did. Yeshua told us to keep God's laws and teach others to do so. Matthew 5:19

If you wonder if a Halaka instruction is scriptural, ask someone which scripture it's based on.

All of Paul's anti-law talk was about keeping the law for salvation. Galatians 3:21

We are saved, so we keep the laws and halaka out of love for God and His command for us to live holy. 1 Peter 1:16, Leviticus 20:26

The golden rule doesn't replace the law and halaka, it gives us God's attitude toward keeping His laws and halaka. John 14:15, 1 Corinthians 13:3, 1 Corinthians 16:14

Click to expand...

"All of Paul's anti-law talk" etc.
Gal. 3:19 "What then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions" "the law was put into effect through angels."
Gal. 3:21 "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God?"
The interpretation problem you have is the false assumption that the word "law" can only be referencing the written code. Gal. 3:19 "the law was put into effect through angles" is also referenced by Stephen in Acts 7:53 "the law that was put into effect through angles" and is NOT! referencing the OT code. Gal. 3:21 is referencing the written code. Every interpretation that does not divide the word law correctly is in error. The simple fact is that the law was changed Heb. 7:12 and the change was put into effect through angles unlike the Sinai code which was not put into effect through angels.
"For it is not those who hear the law (put into effect through angles) who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who (have the faith to obey the law that was put into effect through angels), only those who have the faith to obey God this Way, will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Theodore A. Jones said:

"All of Paul's anti-law talk" etc.
Gal. 3:19 "What then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions" "the law was put into effect through angels."
Gal. 3:21 "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God?"
The interpretation problem you have is the false assumption that the word "law" can only be referencing the written code. Gal. 3:19 "the law was put into effect through angles" is also referenced by Stephen in Acts 7:53 "the law that was put into effect through angles" and is NOT! referencing the OT code. Gal. 3:21 is referencing the written code. Every interpretation that does not divide the word law correctly is in error. The simple fact is that the law was changed Heb. 7:12 and the change was put into effect through angles unlike the Sinai code which was not put into effect through angels.
"For it is not those who hear the law (put into effect through angles) who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who (have the faith to obey the law that was put into effect through angels), only those who have the faith to obey God this Way, will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Click to expand...

Whatever it is you are trying to communicate, it is not coming across clearly...

Theodore A. Jones said:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Click to expand...

I agree with this, it is just common sense really.

A Dad has two sons, and tells them to be home by ten.
One son accepts upon himself an even stricter curfew, the curfew of nine, so as to be sure to come home on time.
The other son goes and "receives new revelation" that trumps Dad's instruction.

Which is the good son ?
They both heard, but only one did what he was told.

Hoshiyya said:

If he felt his view was MJ theology in a nutshell he probably wouldn't define himself in opposition to or distance himself from the majority of MJs the way he did.

Click to expand...

One Law is NOT the majority MJ position, it is only the majority MJ position in THIS FORUM.

Open Heart said:

One Law is NOT the majority MJ position, it is only the majority MJ position in THIS FORUM.

Click to expand...

Well he certainly defined himself in opposition to someone, seeing as his position is one of the few "sane" ones apparently.

But you are right, it is certainly not a new position. In fact it is a very old position... being in the majority is not always a good thing !

As for whether God is a racist, I think you'll agree he is not. Jews are not any more or less able to keep Mitzvot than anyone else. Nor do they have a greater need of Mitzvot than anyone else, all humans have a yetzer hara to keep in check.
If Mitzvot please God, why should not all the world try to please God ?

I once heard a Rabbi actually say that the reason Torah is not for Goys is because Jews actually have stronger yetzer hara and therefore more need for Torah. What an absolute joke.

But of course, the same Rabbi says that Jews get a special extra soul on Shabbat that makes them super-Jews, which others do not have access to. If God gave that extra soul to any Shabbat-keeper it would make sense, but apparently it is just for Jews. So here we have a racism that isn't afraid to get metaphysical !

I still like this particular Rabbi, but he relays some illogical views...