Anything But...

Straightshot said:

Today's Israelites know who they are by genetic analysis

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Name one.

ThatTrueLight said:

Here's a portion perfect for the ANYTHING BUT show..

Revelation 7;

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

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Hi there Again

Whats your point?

ThatTrueLight said:

Here's a portion perfect for the ANYTHING BUT show..

Revelation 7;

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

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Question: Who are/were the 144,000?

"Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads." These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (Rev. 14:1,4)

Another term for the phrase "redeemed from among men” is “remnant” (Rom. 9:27; 11:5). In other words, "These were the redeemed remnant, firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." They were the first of all who would come after them.

Paul, quoting Isaiah, had this to say about the remnant:

"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9:27)

No matter who we think "all Israel" is, "only a remnant will be saved."

The apostle Paul applied the term “firstfruits” to first century saints:

“…we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit” (Rom. 8:23).

James wrote to members of all twelve tribes who were considered Gentiles by the Jews:

"James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings." (Jam. 1:1)

James also referred to these first century saints as firstfruits:

“Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures” (James 1:18).

And, as a remnant:

"And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name." (Acts 15:13, 14 NKJV)

Since both Paul and James include themselves (we) in the context of these passages, this is evidence that the Apostles were part of the remnant, the firstfruits, the 144,000 of Revelation.

The fact that there are no verifiable Jewish tribes in existence today is further evidence that the 144,000 firstfruits, whether a literal or symbolic number, were the remnant saved from among men in the first century. The twelve tribes of Israel were relevant and in tact in the first century prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

When Mystery Babylon (Paul’s "Jerusalem which now is” Gal. 4:25, and John’s “the Mother of Harlots" Rev. 17:5) was destroyed, the genealogical records of the twelve tribes of Old Covenant Israel were lost forever.

The futurist idea that the temple will be rebuilt and the Levitical priesthood reinstated is false. During the time when the Old Covenant was relevant, the Levites were required to produce proof of lineage. That has been impossible since the Romans destroyed every genealogical record by fire.

I think any explanation that places the firstfruits at the end of the church age (though the New Covenant age has no end) is an obvious error. Firstfruits, by definition, do not come at the end of an age but at the beginning.

Therefore, the firstfruits, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 & 14, were members of the early church who were the first to respond to the gospel of Christ at beginning of the New Covenant age. The New Covenant, Messianic age, was fully consummated at the end of the Old Covenant age.

No, those living in Israel today are ALL Gentiles and they ALL need the Savior!

ThatTrueLight said:

The obsession with AD70 is strong with this one..

John is writing about the things which shall be in Rev 4 and onward. But I know, it must by necessity be ANYTHING BUT the things which shall be.. it must be the things which were a long time ago by those obsessed with AD70.

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My obsession is with the attempt to understand the truth of Scripture and where ever that truth leads.

Yes, John wrote "about the things which shall be in Rev. 4 onward."

Please look back at what John was instructed to write:
'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come (mello) after these things' (Rev. 1:19)

The following is the definition of 'mello'
to be about
1. to be on the point of doing or suffering something

So, I agree with you. In Revelation, John was writing about things that he had seen, and the things that were present, and the things that were about to come.

ThatTrueLight said:

And of course the coming of Christ as described in Rev 19 hasn't happened yet, and that is about to come.. still, right?

Or are you going to claim that Rev 19 already happened, as well as the marriage of the Lamb to His wife at the beginning of the same chapter?

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When do the events of Revelation take place?

We should absolutely reject the opinion of ANY uninspired man. That includes both you and I. We must ALL rely on the inspired Words of God.

John, the inspired apostle, gives us a clue from both the opening and closing chapters of the Revelation of Jesus Christ:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Rev. 1:1-3)

"Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place...And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:6,10)

I accept his testimony. Do you?

ThatTrueLight said:

I want to hear you say that Rev 19 has already happened, that Christ already came and that the resurrection is past.

You don't actually believe that.

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I'm content to continue allowing Scripture to speak for me. You're free to do the same. I'd love to see you interact with the points I've already made.

The only reason I'm on this forum is to test my view to find the weaknesses, accept scriptural evidence, then move closer to the truth.

ThatTrueLight said:

I knew you didn't actually believe the nonsense that Christ already came and that te resurrection is past..

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Mere diversion on your part. Have you lost confidence in your ability to defend your view. All I ask is for your interaction with me regarding Scripture. Nothing personal, hateful, sarcastic...just Scripture.

Let's start here: According to Scripture, when are the events of Revelation to occur?

ThatTrueLight said:

Clever, and you're here telling people that Christ came already and that the resurrection is past.. WHY?

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No, I'm here to discuss Scripture and learn. Are you willing to do that?

I have a question? In Ezekiel 37 - the story of the dry bones - Does God mean that He will literally bring those bones back to life and bring them back into Jerusalem?

ThatTrueLight said:

Not to mention that Peter told us straight up that King David was still in his grave, at Pentecost when the promise of the Spirit was sent by the Father.

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Funny, Peter also mentioned in that same passage that Jesus was presently seated on Davids throne..

I know.. anything BUT that