Jesus Christ is NOT God.

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katerinah1947

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Where do you find that in the Bible? (Bold and underlined above)

Hi,

God from God

1.) Jesus said He is spoken about in The Old Testament.
2.) Jesus teaches using Psalms 110 The Lord said to my Lord.... Psalms 110 is mentioned twice by Jesus and even in Acts it is listed, but I think used by Peter.
3.) God The Father is The Lord in Psalms 110, and 2, for this discussion.
4.) Jesus who will be the Messiah is my Lord in Psalms 110, and 2, for this discussion.
5.) In Psalms 2, Jesus who is called my Lord there accepts His Inheritance from His Father. (All of us.)
6.) It is in Psalms 2, that Jesus is said to be begotten by The Lord, God The Father.
7.) God The Father begat Jesus. Jesus, God, is begat from The Father, God. Thus God from God. Psalms 2.

Son of man, God and man, Mary and Holy Spirit beget Jesus

1.) The angel said The Holy Spirit will come upon you.
2.) Mary is human, thus called man also in that context.
3.) Mary had a son, by The Holy Spirit.
4.) She was told nothing shall be impossible for God.
5.) Later she said, He who is mighty has done wondrous things to me.
6.) Mary thus had a human baby who was also God, being begat by Him, not a man.
7.) Jesus is then son of man.
8.) He is also God from God, as is said in Psalms 2 and backed up elsewhere in Scripture.
9.) To us humans He is both man and God, or God and man.

LOVE,
...Katie., .... .
 
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Butch5

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John 1:1 speaks of the Word in the beginning. The Word was not begotten. The Word became flesh in the form of the Son later (John 1:14). The Son was begotten later as Jesus and identified by God and Psalmist.

What does John mean by, "In the beginning?" I submit that he is alluding to this.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1 KJV)

The Word was there along with the Father and the Spirit. However, just because John calls Him the Word doesn't mean He wasn't the Son. We know from Scripture that Jesus was begotten of Mary, however, Psalm 2 says the Son was begotten of the Father, not Mary.

Here, Solomon acknowledges the Son of God long before Mary.

KJV Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? (Pro 30:4 KJV)
 
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katerinah1947

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Hi,
That may not be to me, but to me the beginning is long.
1.) The starting point of the beginning is listed no where that I have found.
2.) In proverbs 8, God's gal pal who He gave the name Wisdom to and later tasked her with testing us, for our total commitment to honesty, says that she is the first thing in all of Creation that God made.
3.) Then the earth and all we know of are made later.
4.) Timing wise, I don't know and can't find out yet, when angels were made, nor the various holy powers.
5.) Also I don't know when we were made.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .
 
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That's your evidence? A you tube video?




You might want to consider who you call a heretic and actually do a little research. OUTSIDE OF YOU TUBE.

No if you would've actually bothered to watch the video and not commit the genetic fallacy, you would see that a well known scholar James White, uses a very non-biased source (one that I cannot afford) and deconstructs the "19,000 Protestant denominations" myth. So I suggest you watch it or even a little Googling by you would've shown that talking point to be utter bunk.

Ad hominem also doesn't work in your favor, I guarantee you that I have more research into this then you do.




Read through the thread and you'll see the changes

I've read through the changes and all I see is the typical talking points of one who has embraced heresy and thinks they are revolutionary.





Maybe if you had read what I posted instead of jumping in with ad hominems (Logical fallacies) you'd know what was going on. I never claimed I figured anything out. What I've said is what was taught in the beginning of the Christian faith by those who were taught by the apostles and their disciples.

The only one committing logical fallacies here is you. You have not "taught what was passed along by the Apostles" only what you have come up with in your unique interpretation of the Scriptures.

However, since you're so sure that I'm a heretic pick any of the doctrines that I've posted and make a case from the Scriptures and we'll see whose doctrine is correct.

Well for that to be an honest challenge you'd have to be willing to accept that you're wrong and that your interpretation of Scripture is in error and that 2,000 years of Christian history is better than one person and their little "study group." But if you are so willing then I challenge you to a formal debate on the Deity of Christ.
 
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Righttruth

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Hi,

God from God

1.) Jesus said He is spoken about in The Old Testament.
2.) Jesus teaches using Psalms 110 The Lord said to my Lord.... Psalms 110 is mentioned twice by Jesus and even in Acts it is listed, but I think used by Peter.
3.) God The Father is The Lord in Psalms 110, and 2, for this discussion.
4.) Jesus who will be the Messiah is my Lord in Psalms 110, and 2, for this discussion.
5.) In Psalms 2, Jesus who is called my Lord there accepts His Inheritance from His Father. (All of us.)
6.) It is in Psalms 2, that Jesus is said to be begotten by The Lord, God The Father.
7.) God The Father begat Jesus. Jesus, God, is begat from The Father, God. Thus God from God. Psalms 2.

Son of man, God and man, Mary and Holy Spirit beget Jesus

1.) The angel said The Holy Spirit will come upon you.
2.) Mary is human, thus called man also in that context.
3.) Mary had a son, by The Holy Spirit.
4.) She was told nothing shall be impossible for God.
5.) Later she said, He who is mighty has done wondrous things to me.
6.) Mary thus had a human baby who was also God, being begat by Him, not a man.
7.) Jesus is then son of man.
8.) He is also God from God, as is said in Psalms 2 and backed up elsewhere in Scripture.
9.) To us humans He is both man and God, or God and man.

LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

Jesus inherited the nature and substance of His Father. However, it doesn't mean He is God. There is only God, that is, God the Father.
 
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Righttruth

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What does John mean by, "In the beginning?" I submit that he is alluding to this.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1 KJV)

The Word was there along with the Father and the Spirit.

Right.


However, just because John calls Him the Word doesn't mean He wasn't the Son.

The role of the Son came later to the Word.

We know from Scripture that Jesus was begotten of Mary, however, Psalm 2 says the Son was begotten of the Father, not Mary.

Jesus was not begotten of Mary. She only bore Him.
 
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Butch5

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No if you would've actually bothered to watch the video and not commit the genetic fallacy, you would see that a well known scholar James White, uses a very non-biased source (one that I cannot afford) and deconstructs the "19,000 Protestant denominations" myth. So I suggest you watch it or even a little Googling by you would've shown that talking point to be utter bunk.

Ad hominem also doesn't work in your favor, I guarantee you that I have more research into this then you do.

James White? Nah. That's interesting, you guarantee you have more research into it without even know the extent of any research I've done.

I've read through the changes and all I see is the typical talking points of one who has embraced heresy and thinks they are revolutionary.

More talk, no evidence


The only one committing logical fallacies here is you. You have not "taught what was passed along by the Apostles" only what you have come up with in your unique interpretation of the Scriptures.

More talk, no evidence

Well for that to be an honest challenge you'd have to be willing to accept that you're wrong and that your interpretation of Scripture is in error and that 2,000 years of Christian history is better than one person and their little "study group." But if you are so willing then I challenge you to a formal debate on the Deity of Christ.

More talk, no evidence. Do you have another account on here by the name of Notre Dame?

You challenge me to a debate on a subject I don't deny? Are taking the side that Christ is not deity?
 
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James White? Nah. That's interesting, you guarantee you have more research into it without even know the extent of any research I've done.

Again committing of the genetic fallacy. You should probably watch the video. I gurantee your "research" is reading of Unitarians, Arians, etc.


More talk, no evidence

I don't need evidence to the this, you posted this thread...


More talk, no evidence

Uhm, all one has to do for evidence is to read your thread and see the heretical claims you've made...



More talk, no evidence. Do you have another account on here by the name of Notre Dame?

Your own postings in this thread are evidence....Are you open ot hearing that you may be wrong? From this post it sounds like you're prideful of your error...and no I dont.

You challenge me to a debate on a subject I don't deny? Are taking the side that Christ is not deity?

No I affirm Christ's deity
 
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katerinah1947

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Jesus inherited the nature and substance of His Father. However, it doesn't mean He is God. There is only God, that is, God the Father.

Hi,
You have the right to say that. You have the right to believe that. God I have been telling everyone is hard to understand, unless, technically Jesus reveals Him to you or I. And, no where is that a requirement to know God as He actually is. It is not. With Jesus though, you and I are supposed to know Who He is, like that. I don't think you have to believe in John 1:1 or Psalms 2, or in that other place where it says of Him Your throne...... You don't need to be a scholar, just know a little bit about God, and follow what God wants you to do.
Over the years people have given a very accurate desripton of God. Very few have seen Him, even Biblically. Some are Abraham, Moses, Job, Paul, probably every prophet in some way. That is not a huge number over the thousands of years the Bible is covering.
You are allowed to think God The Father is God, and Jesus is not. You are. In the end run, when you see Jesus up in the sky personally, you. When that happens your test scores on what you got wrong will not count against you. They won't. He, Jesus, and being intructed by His Own Father, will judge you on being right and just, where each of those words actually mean the same thing.
Even if you think that rock on the hillside is God, and are just and right, God will be very nice to you.

On a separate subject. I have seen God, and you cannot use that. I deal with God on a daily basis, and no you cannot use or believe that, usually, either. I actually know whether your version of God being God is right or wrong. It is close. If you continue to persue this, fine. Ask God and do not believe everything you hear, if someone answers you, because it may not be Him, merely someone sounding like Him. So test that also. Test all I say, but do not lean on your own understandings, totally. Oh, much I know of has been treated to testing, and by others not myself. I know what I believed. I also know what I was not sure of. They corrected all of that on my version of God. They with a test, threw out every error I had. They also with a test allowed me to throw out all that was uncertain, as to whether or not, God was in all of that.
In my case, for that two year period, in which I was told to go somewhere, by
Mary, The Virgin Mary to get A GIFT, and to whom God later helped her get me to perform that for her, had these results in errors and the number of removed uncertainties. No errors, and all uncertainties were God. You can throw that out also.
There is only one God, three persons do that, each performing the work of God, and the actions of God like God does. They do that because that was never withheld, when God begot His Only Son. Since God was God, and He Begot a Son, only by Himself, that Son also had within Him whatever it means to be God. Since I have had to learn some things, over time, one thing I learned is all three of them are identical, even in what you and I call God.
To me, the best description I can give you of God, is it's a job that is done perfectly and correctly. I can run, operate, fix, teach others about Heavy Particle accelerators. It is my job. I am excelent at it. Everyone who does that job, does it exactly the same as I do, as what we are dealing with, has no variance. An Atom of Boron-11, is not an Atom of Boron-10, and so on and so forth. We do that job the only way it can be done to do that job right. Doing God, Being God, is a lot like that.
God as you call Him is energy, and the manipulator of energy, He is also a lot of things that are personable. His Son is ~infinitely infinitely infinitely and then some tender and He is mild~ Sorry that I had to write that in those marks, but since that was given to me in a language of visions with content, and feelings with content and with my own personal definitions of words and ideas, there is no way I know of to put that to others, who Gold did not have a very specific and far reaching reason for revealing Himself to a person. As and example of that learning, that takes place just from Seeing God, in my normal world before Jesus in this case came inside of me and told me precisely who He is at His core, the word infinite is not finite. There in our normal world infinite really is a concept without measure. ~In God's world, the word I use infinite is finite, and I know how big it is.~ Outside of God's world, I have also know the definition of inifinite, and it has no limits.
God is Precisely Trinitarian. He is Precisely what the Christians say He is that way. Each of them is composed of the same subtance, to use human words. Each is identical in power. Each is identical in every way but one. They are not each other. They are person's outside the role of God, again trying to use human words and concepts. And our human words of Jesus, and The Holy Spirt and The Father in thier ways as a person, like each of us is a person, is also very very close. And again, you cannot believe anything I say really, without The Holy Spirit, God also, telling you I am right somehow. Test all things.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .
 
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Brother Chris

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Do you believe that God is Jesus?

Yes or no?

God is 3 persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So yes, Jesus is God, but we can't say God is Jesus, because Jesus is one person of the trinity and God is 3 persons.

When did God die???

7 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
 
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Righttruth

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Hi,
You have the right to say that. You have the right to believe that. God I have been telling everyone is hard to understand, unless, technically Jesus reveals Him to you or I. And, no where is that a requirement to know God as He actually is. It is not. With Jesus though, you and I are supposed to know Who He is, like that. I don't think you have to believe in John 1:1 or Psalms 2, or in that other place where it says of Him Your throne...... You don't need to be a scholar, just know a little bit about God, and follow what God wants you to do.
Over the years people have given a very accurate desripton of God. Very few have seen Him, even Biblically. Some are Abraham, Moses, Job, Paul, probably every prophet in some way. That is not a huge number over the thousands of years the Bible is covering.
You are allowed to think God The Father is God, and Jesus is not. You are. In the end run, when you see Jesus up in the sky personally, you. When that happens your test scores on what you got wrong will not count against you. They won't. He, Jesus, and being intructed by His Own Father, will judge you on being right and just, where each of those words actually mean the same thing.
Even if you think that rock on the hillside is God, and are just and right, God will be very nice to you.

On a separate subject. I have seen God, and you cannot use that. I deal with God on a daily basis, and no you cannot use or believe that, usually, either. I actually know whether your version of God being God is right or wrong. It is close. If you continue to persue this, fine. Ask God and do not believe everything you hear, if someone answers you, because it may not be Him, merely someone sounding like Him. So test that also. Test all I say, but do not lean on your own understandings, totally. Oh, much I know of has been treated to testing, and by others not myself. I know what I believed. I also know what I was not sure of. They corrected all of that on my version of God. They with a test, threw out every error I had. They also with a test allowed me to throw out all that was uncertain, as to whether or not, God was in all of that.
In my case, for that two year period, in which I was told to go somewhere, by
Mary, The Virgin Mary to get A GIFT, and to whom God later helped her get me to perform that for her, had these results in errors and the number of removed uncertainties. No errors, and all uncertainties were God. You can throw that out also.
There is only one God, three persons do that, each performing the work of God, and the actions of God like God does. They do that because that was never withheld, when God begot His Only Son. Since God was God, and He Begot a Son, only by Himself, that Son also had within Him whatever it means to be God. Since I have had to learn some things, over time, one thing I learned is all three of them are identical, even in what you and I call God.
To me, the best description I can give you of God, is it's a job that is done perfectly and correctly. I can run, operate, fix, teach others about Heavy Particle accelerators. It is my job. I am excelent at it. Everyone who does that job, does it exactly the same as I do, as what we are dealing with, has no variance. An Atom of Boron-11, is not an Atom of Boron-10, and so on and so forth. We do that job the only way it can be done to do that job right. Doing God, Being God, is a lot like that.
God as you call Him is energy, and the manipulator of energy, He is also a lot of things that are personable. His Son is ~infinitely infinitely infinitely and then some tender and He is mild~ Sorry that I had to write that in those marks, but since that was given to me in a language of visions with content, and feelings with content and with my own personal definitions of words and ideas, there is no way I know of to put that to others, who Gold did not have a very specific and far reaching reason for revealing Himself to a person. As and example of that learning, that takes place just from Seeing God, in my normal world before Jesus in this case came inside of me and told me precisely who He is at His core, the word infinite is not finite. There in our normal world infinite really is a concept without measure. ~In God's world, the word I use infinite is finite, and I know how big it is.~ Outside of God's world, I have also know the definition of inifinite, and it has no limits.
God is Precisely Trinitarian. He is Precisely what the Christians say He is that way. Each of them is composed of the same subtance, to use human words. Each is identical in power. Each is identical in every way but one. They are not each other. They are person's outside the role of God, again trying to use human words and concepts. And our human words of Jesus, and The Holy Spirt and The Father in thier ways as a person, like each of us is a person, is also very very close. And again, you cannot believe anything I say really, without The Holy Spirit, God also, telling you I am right somehow. Test all things.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

There is only One God the Father. He is Spirit. One Son who became flesh as Jesus. One Holy Spirit. All treated as Persons as indicated in the Bible. It doesn't mean that Father and the Holy Spirit are Persons in the normal usage of the term.
 
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katerinah1947

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There is only One God the Father. He is Spirit. One Son who became flesh as Jesus. One Holy Spirit. All treated as Persons as indicated in the Bible. It doesn't mean that Father and the Holy Spirit are Persons in the normal usage of the term.

Hi,
Nice. Maybe. How are they not persons in the normal usage of the term. I am sure you are right, but could you help me to know how you define the normal usage as I am at this point confused. And, now that I have thought on it, I also cannot guess how you mean that. Jesus is a person to me. He is what He is. The Holy Spirit is a person to me. He is what He is. Similarly The Father is a peson to me. He is what He is. And because I have interfaced with her, not more than five times, Mary also is a person to me.
How is it, they are not persons to you, please if you would be kind enough to indulge my curiositiy.
LOVE,
...Katherine., .... .
 
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McKeehan

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God the Father of Jesus Christ

is NOT

The Son of God

Jesus Christ.

And

Jesus Christ

The Son of God

is NOT

God His Father.

Jesus Christ obeys and answers to God.

God does not answer to ANYONE

including Jesus Christ.

Matthew 1: 23 (ISV) “See, a virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name him Immanuel,”[a) which means, “God (ho theos) with us." God with us or with us is God. Jesus is God!
 
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Righttruth

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Hi,
Nice. Maybe. How are they not persons in the normal usage of the term. I am sure you are right, but could you help me to know how you define the normal usage as I am at this point confused. And, now that I have thought on it, I also cannot guess how you mean that. Jesus is a person to me. He is what He is. The Holy Spirit is a person to me. He is what He is. Similarly The Father is a peson to me. He is what He is. And because I have interfaced with her, not more than five times, Mary also is a person to me.
How is it, they are not persons to you, please if you would be kind enough to indulge my curiositiy.
LOVE,
...Katherine., .... .

In the normal definition, all persons in flesh are persons. With that Mary, Paul, Peter, et al are persons. So also Jesus is a Person. However, God the Father, the Holy Spirit are personified in the Bible. God is called the Father as a Person, not that He is a Person and Father in the usual sense. But the Son is a Person. Similarly, the Holy Spirit is personified in the writing of the Bible, not that He is a Person in the usual sense.

One God and Three Persons would mean One God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as revealed in the Bible with Father and the Holy Spirit personified in the writings of the Bible, not that all Three of them are persons in the usual sense.

I hope this will clarify my position.
 
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ChetSinger

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In the normal definition, all persons in flesh are persons. With that Mary, Paul, Peter, et al are persons. So also Jesus is a Person. However, God the Father, the Holy Spirit are personified in the Bible. God is called the Father as a Person, not that He is a Person and Father in the usual sense. But the Son is a Person. Similarly, the Holy Spirit is personified in the writing of the Bible, not that He is a Person in the usual sense.

One God and Three Persons would mean One God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as revealed in the Bible with Father and the Holy Spirit personified in the writings of the Bible, not that all Three of them are persons in the usual sense.

I hope this will clarify my position.
Sorry, but it didn't, at least for me. Perhaps the word "person" is used so broadly in our language that even your post, which was obviously carefully worded, didn't explain much to me.

While the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not "persons" in the sense that they are flesh like we are, I believe I could still use the word "person" to describe them because each is independently sentient. For example, in the NT all three of them speak independently: the Father speaks at Jesus' baptism and the Holy Spirit speaks in Acts 13.

As an aside, I've heard testimony from a former JW that it was the Holy Spirit's speaking in Acts 13 that led him to question and eventually discard Watchtower teachings. They haven't excised that passage from their Bibles...I wonder how they explain it away.
 
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Righttruth

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Sorry, but it didn't, at least for me. Perhaps the word "person" is used so broadly in our language that even your post, which was obviously carefully worded, didn't explain much to me.

While the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not "persons" in the sense that they are flesh like we are, I believe I could still use the word "person" to describe them because each is independently sentient. For example, in the NT all three of them speak independently: the Father speaks at Jesus' baptism and the Holy Spirit speaks in Acts 13.

As an aside, I've heard testimony from a former JW that it was the Holy Spirit's speaking in Acts 13 that led him to question and eventually discard Watchtower teachings. They haven't excised that passage from their Bibles...I wonder how they explain it away.

Yes, They have spoken, but have you seen Them in bodily form? That is why They are different from Jesus and men. Nevertheless called, specially designated, Persons though they are not persons with bodies in the normal sense. They have spoken also through persons. Burning bush spoke, but you don't call flame a person.

Normal persons don't have the ability to speak through another person nor have the ability to produce sound without a body!
 
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Butch5

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Again committing of the genetic fallacy. You should probably watch the video. I gurantee your "research" is reading of Unitarians, Arians, etc.

You don't know anything about me but you can guarantee where my research is from? That sounds fallacious.




I don't need evidence to the this, you posted this thread...

You don't need evidence? Do you go on opinion then?




Uhm, all one has to do for evidence is to read your thread and see the heretical claims you've made...

Again, you claim heretical but yet have given no evidence that what I've said is heretical.


Your own postings in this thread are evidence....Are you open ot hearing that you may be wrong? From this post it sounds like you're prideful of your error...and no I dont.

Of course I'm open to hearing I may be wrong. However, opinion doesn't make me wrong, that takes evidence. You haven't supplied any yet.


No I affirm Christ's deity

Then why would you challenge me to a debate on a subject on which we agree?

It seems to me that you haven't even read my position if you don't know where I stand on the deity of Christ. That also suggests to me that you haven't looked at anything I've said in the thread, but rather came in making accusations. If you want to be taken seriously you should at least know someone's position before you call them a heretic.

Also, you didn't answer my question. Do you or did you have another account on here under the name Notre Dame?
 
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