Was it really Samuel ?

Smoky · Feb 27, 2015

1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB)
11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul."
1 Samuel 28:15 (NASB)
15

Then Samuel said to Saul

, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."

Some bible scholars think that it was an evil spirit the mediam saw instead of Samuel. However, the text itself clearly says that she saw Samuel. Could it not be that she saw Samuel actually resurrected in the same state in which he died, that is, as an old man ? The inspired text says that Samuel himself spoke to Saul, not a spirit.

Samuel 28:14 (NASB)
14 He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 27, 2015

It's only a dilemma if you do not understand the state of the dead as taught in the scriptures. An incorrect belief leads to accepting 'ghosts' as loved ones visiting us...

Ubuntu · Feb 27, 2015

What happened was most likely comparable to a modern channelling session, where a medium is possessed by a spirit and speaks with an abnormal voice. Since her voice resembled the actual voice of Samuel, Saul assumed that he met with Samuel himself, but the original readers of this passage would have known that this wasn't the case.

Many people who are not adventists and who don't agree with our view of the state of the dead, nevertheless agree with us that it wasn't really Samuel who appeared to Saul. Mediumship is forbidden in the Bible, so why would God let a prophet give credibility to a practice that is condemned in the Word of God?

My personal understanding is that spirit mediums are in touch with demons, and I think this is what happened in this case. The demons understood that Israel were to lose the battle the following day, and they also knew that they had Saul in their power.

We infer that this wasn't the real Samuel, because although Israel lost the battle, the prophecy failed in other respects. The spirit medium said: Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines... 1 Sam 28:19

This didn't happen, when Saul the next day saw that they were losing the battle he killed himself to avoid being taken captive by the Philistines, so he never fell into the hands of the Philistines as predicted.

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB)...

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

No brother it does not present any dilemma, except for those which did not pray and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide them into all Truth. Samuel the Prophet was dead and buried, asleep until God is to raise him at the last day. What the devil put forth was a lie. Only those desiring to know the Truth, proving all things, and holding fast to that which is good, the prophets subject to the prophets, knowing that the Scripture cannot be broken, and must be taken line upon line, precept upon precept, etc, will prayerfully consider that which follows:

First, please pray, then go with me to the contexts:

Here are the texts and immediate local context of 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 31:1-13; 2 Samuel 1:1-4,23; 1 Chronicles 10:1-14.

1 SAMUEL 28:1-25

And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men. 1 Samuel 28:1

And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever. 1 Samuel 28:2

Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. 1 Samuel 28:3

And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. 1 Samuel 28:4

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 1 Samuel 28:5

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6

Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, [there is] a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 1 Samuel 28:7

And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee. 1 Samuel 28:8

And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 1 Samuel 28:9

And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 1 Samuel 28:10

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:11

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul. 1 Samuel 28:12

And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13

And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1 Samuel 28:14

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 1 Samuel 28:15

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 1 Samuel 28:16

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, [even] to David: 1 Samuel 28:17

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 1 Samuel 28:18

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 1 Samuel 28:19

Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night. 1 Samuel 28:20

And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me. 1 Samuel 28:21

Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way. 1 Samuel 28:22

But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed. 1 Samuel 28:23

And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded [it], and did bake unleavened bread thereof: 1 Samuel 28:24

And she brought [it] before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night. 1 Samuel 28:25

1 SAMUEL 31:1-13

Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:1

And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons. 1 Samuel 31:2

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers. 1 Samuel 31:3

Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Samuel 31:4

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. 1 Samuel 31:5

So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together. 1 Samuel 31:6

And when the men of Israel that [were] on the other side of the valley, and [they] that [were] on the other side Jordan, saw that the men of Israel fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, they forsook the cities, and fled; and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Samuel 31:7

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:8

And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish [it in] the house of their idols, and among the people. 1 Samuel 31:9

And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan. 1 Samuel 31:10

And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul; 1 Samuel 31:11

All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there. 1 Samuel 31:12

And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Samuel 31:13

2 SAMUEL 1:1-4,23

Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag; 2 Samuel 1:1

It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and [so] it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance. 2 Samuel 1:2

And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped. 2 Samuel 1:3

And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also. 2 Samuel 1:4

...

Saul and Jonathan [were] lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions. 2 Samuel 1:23

1 CHRONICLES 10:1-14

Now the Philistines fought against Israel; and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronnicles 10:1

And the Philistines followed hard after Saul, and after his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, the sons of Saul. 1 Chronicles 10:2

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him, and he was wounded of the archers. 1 Chronicles 10:3

Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Chronicles 10:4

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died. 1 Chronicles 10:5

So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together. 1 Chronicles 10:6

And when all the men of Israel that [were] in the valley saw that they fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, then they forsook their cities, and fled: and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Chronicles 10:7

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronicles 10:8

And when they had stripped him, they took his head, and his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to carry tidings unto their idols, and to the people. 1 Chronicles 10:9

And they put his armour in the house of their gods, and fastened his head in the temple of Dagon. 1 Chronicles 10:10

And when all Jabeshgilead heard all that the Philistines had done to Saul, 1 Chronicles 10:11

They arose, all the valiant men, and took away the body of Saul, and the bodies of his sons, and brought them to Jabesh, and buried their bones under the oak in Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Chronicles 10:12

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it]; 1 Chronicles 10:13

And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:14

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB)...

Now that the context of 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 31:1-13; 2 Samuel 1:1-4,23; 1 Chronicles 10:1-14. is given:

Before we see what we may gain from these texts, we shall consider the background leading up to these events, as they have a direct bearing upon the last events of Saul before his death:

God, after taking out of the world for Himself a peculiar and chosen people [Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 14:2, 26:18; Psalms 135:4; even as we Christians are called to be Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:9], Israel [Deuteronomy 4:20], so ruled directly over the children of Israel in a Heavenly Theocracy [Divine Government], before there reigned any king over the children of Israel. [Genesis 36:31].

After some time had passed, and the hearts of the people began to turn away from the Lord, there was the time of the periods of the Judges [see book of Judges] and In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes. [Judges 17:6; see also Judges 21:25], but at the end of the periods of these Judges came the sons of old prophet/seer [1 Samuel 9:9,18,19] Samuel, And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel. [1 Samuel 8:1], which ...walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment. [1 Samuel 8:3].

This brought the people to sin further by asking for them a human King over them [...that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness [is] great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king. [1 Samuel 12:17]] instead of God, Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, [1 Samuel 8:4]; And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. [1 Samuel 8:5] and the peoples refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; [1 Samuel 8:19]; That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles. [1 Samuel 8:20] and so a human king of Israel was to be chosen by God over them, And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city. [1 Samuel 8:22].

Such a human king over Israel was to be chosen, and so it was that person whose name [was] Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and [there was] not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward [he was] higher than any of the people. [1 Samuel 9:2] of whom was found of the tribe of Benjamin [1 Samuel 9:1,2], being a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? [1 Samuel 9:21], for Samuel had already known of the person even before he came [1 Samuel 9:15,19,20], for God had told Samuel, To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him [to be] captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me. [1 Samuel 9:16]; And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people. [1 Samuel 9:17].

This Saul, though a choice young man, and a goodly and tall, even higher than any of the people, was at the first humble and shy, obedient in seeking the counsel of God, even at the feet of the prophet of the Lord, Samuel [1 Samuel 9:18,19], (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for [he that is] now [called] a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.) [1 Samuel 9:9]; Then said Saul to his servant, Well said; come, let us go. So they went unto the city where the man of God [was]. [1 Samuel 9:10]; and when Saul was told that it was upon him and all his father's house that all the desire of Israel [1 Samuel 9:20] rested, that ...Saul answered and said, [Am] not I a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? wherefore then speakest thou so to me? [1 Samuel 9:21].

When told what to do by the prophet Samuel, Saul at the first listened and obeyed, and so became the anointed of the Lord and made King over Israel, even prophesying and given a new heart:

[And] as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God. [1 Samuel 9:27]; Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured [it] upon his head, and kissed him, and said, [Is it] not because the LORD hath anointed thee [to be] captain over his inheritance? [1 Samuel 10:1]; And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. [1 Samuel 10:6]; And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee. [1 Samuel 10:7]; And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, [and] to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do. [1 Samuel 10:8]; And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. [1 Samuel 10:9],

and yet he was still meek and shy enough that when all the people asked after Saul, they could not find him, for he was in hiding, Therefore they enquired of the LORD further, if the man should yet come thither. And the LORD answered, Behold, he hath hid himself among the stuff. [1 Samuel 10:22] and the people ...they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward. [1 Samuel 10:23] and so ...all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly. [1 Samuel 11:15]

But already there was a forewarning by God, that if they would not obey Him, He would not protect them,

But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as [it was] against your fathers. [1 Samuel 12:15]; But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king. [1 Samuel 12:25].

It is here that we have the foreshadowing of the downfall of King Saul and the peoples, from exalted by grace to abased in disgrace.

Though Saul at the early outset of his kingship, Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel, [1 Samuel 13:1], was walking with the Lord, he began to become impatient and take things into his own control, and when his sin made known, to make excuses for them, and so we see that the Kingdom was to be taken from him and given to another, even prophesied of Samuel, long before any 'spirit' 'summoned' of the witch of Endor said anything:

And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel [had appointed]: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. [1 Samuel 13:8]; And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering. [1 Samuel 13:9]; And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him. [1 Samuel 13:10]; And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] thou camest not within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash; [1 Samuel 13:11]; Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering. [1 Samuel 13:12]; And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. [1 Samuel 13:13]; But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept [that] which the LORD commanded thee. [1 Samuel 13:14]

All false worship is made in such a way, where it has the appearance and semblance of true religion and of acceptance with God, yet it does not, for it is even after the way of Cain [Genesis 4:5], even as it will be in the end, true worship vs the false [see Revelation 12-18, etc; worship].

Saul also began to make foolish oaths and human tests not appointed of God, which endangered the health of the people, even his own son Jonathan, which were only his, by permission, gift and stewardship of God. Thus it was that we see Saul, instead of being sacrificial for the people and their wellbeing, made them to suffer for his honor, that he would be avenged upon his enemies:

And the men of Israel were distressed that day: for Saul had adjured the people, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted [any] food. [1 Samuel 14:24]; Then answered one of the people, and said, Thy father straitly charged the people with an oath, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food this day. And the people were faint. [1 Samuel 14:28]; Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey. [1 Samuel 14:29]

This rashness, foolishness and sin of King Saul, thus led the people into sin [1 Samuel 14:33-34], for their faintness, they did which is forbidden of them to do, which it is forbidden for any follower of God to eat the blood [Leviticus 17:2; many, many texts, even in the New Testament, etc], and is a warning to all leadership [take ye heed ye leaders and under-shepherds of the flock of the Lord]:

And they smote the Philistines that day from Michmash to Aijalon: and the people were very faint. [1 Samuel 14:31]; And the people flew upon the spoil, and took sheep, and oxen, and calves, and slew [them] on the ground: and the people did eat [them] with the blood. [1 Samuel 14:32]

Yet all was not yet lost for Saul, though the Kingdom was yet lost to him, he may have been forgiven, and had other chances, but in these he also did not obey, and made excuses, claiming to have obeyed, even unto the honor of God, but did not carry out the commands of the Lord:

Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee [to be] king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. [1 Samuel 15:1]; Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. [1 Samuel 15:3]; But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all [that was] good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing [that was] vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly. [1 Samuel 15:9]; Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, [1 Samuel 15:10]; It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. [1 Samuel 15:11]; And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed [be] thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD. [1 Samuel 15:13]; And Samuel said, What [meaneth] then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? [1 Samuel 15:14]; And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. [1 Samuel 15:15]; Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on. [1 Samuel 15:16]; And Samuel said, When thou [wast] little in thine own sight, [wast] thou not [made] the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? [1 Samuel 15:17]; And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. [1 Samuel 15:18]; Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD? [1 Samuel 15:19]; And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. [1 Samuel 15:20]; But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal. [1 Samuel 15:21]; And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams. [1 Samuel 15:22]

But notice carefully these next words, for they have a great deal to do with the texts we are to consider more closely, For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king. [1 Samuel 15:23]; for it is clear that the rebellion of Saul even led him unto utilizing witchcraft in the end.

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB)...

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

Saul even acknowledges his sin before Samuel, saying that he sinned because he feared not God, but the people, And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. [1 Samuel 15:24], and since this was so, Saul was rejected as King over Israel by God, Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD. [1 Samuel 15:25]; And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. [1 Samuel 15:26].

However Saul, like a little child, unwilling to accept the judgment, still rebelled, and tried to keep Samuel from leaving, and even tore the mantle of Samuel, And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. [1 Samuel 15:27], thus the Kingdom was rent from Saul that very day, And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, [that is] better than thou. [1 Samuel 15:28], though he would yet remain until his death.

Samuel had to then carry out the Word of the Lord, which Saul refused to do, And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. [1 Samuel 15:33], and so we come to a very important text, which reveals that Samuel the prophet left Saul permanently, and came no more unto him at all and mourned for him, And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. [1 Samuel 15:33].

After this, wherein Saul rejected the counsel of God, and of the prophet and would no longer humble himself, and heed the Word of the Lord, another was to reign in his stead, even King David, since Saul had grieved away the Holy Spirit of God, and from that day forward, an evil spirit came continually and troubled him, and this is important to notice, as we come to the familiar spirit that later addresses him by the witch of Endor:

And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. [1 Samuel 16:1]; Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. [1 Samuel 16:13]; But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. [1 Samuel 16:14]; And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. [1 Samuel 16:15]

From this point forward, Saul becomes worse in thought and deed, becoming increasingly jealous, and filled with a conspiratorial mind [1 Samuel 22:8] and plotting secretly and openly to murder the innocent King David by various means, even using his own daughter Michal in a plot, and also prophesying by the evil spirit:

And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed [but] thousands: and [what] can he have more but the kingdom? [1 Samuel 18:8]; And Saul eyed David from that day and forward. [1 Samuel 18:9]; And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand. [1 Samuel 18:10]; And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall [with it]. And David avoided out of his presence twice. [1 Samuel 18:11]; And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul. [1 Samuel 18:12]; And Saul said to David, Behold my elder daughter Merab, her will I give thee to wife: only be thou valiant for me, and fight the LORD'S battles. For Saul said, Let not mine hand be upon him, but let the hand of the Philistines be upon him. [1 Samuel 18:17]; And Michal Saul's daughter loved David: and they told Saul, and the thing pleased him. [1 Samuel 18:20]; And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in [the one of] the twain. [1 Samuel 18:21]; And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. [1 Samuel 18:25]; And Saul was yet the more afraid of David; and Saul became David's enemy continually. [1 Samuel 18:29]

Saul continually attempted to murder King David, and even to involve his son Jonathan:

And Saul spake to Jonathan his son, and to all his servants, that they should kill David. [1 Samuel 19:1]; But Jonathan Saul's son delighted much in David: and Jonathan told David, saying, Saul my father seeketh to kill thee: now therefore, I pray thee, take heed to thyself until the morning, and abide in a secret [place], and hide thyself: [1 Samuel 19:2]; And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with [his] hand. [1 Samuel 19:9]; And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin; but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night. [1 Samuel 19:10]; Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain. [1 Samuel 19:11]; And Saul sent the messengers [again] to see David, saying, Bring him up to me in the bed, that I may slay him. [1 Samuel 19:15]

However, Jonathan would not take part, and helped David to flee to Ramah, where the prophet Samuel was, and for this Saul became furious at Jonathan with abusive language and acts, seeking not the will of God to have another reign instead of the line of Saul, but he instead still sought to keep the throne and the line through Jonathan:

And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what [is] mine iniquity? and what [is] my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life? [1 Samuel 20:1]; Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious [woman], do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? [1 Samuel 20:30]; For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die. [1 Samuel 20:31]; And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David. [1 Samuel 20:33]

King Saul even ordered the slaying of 85 of the priests of the LORD God which had helped King David in innocence, and also a whole city of Nob was attacked, killing men, women and children and babes and livestock:

And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father's house. [1 Samuel 22:16]; And the king said unto the footmen that stood about him, Turn, and slay the priests of the LORD; because their hand also [is] with David, and because they knew when he fled, and did not shew it to me. But the servants of the king would not put forth their hand to fall upon the priests of the LORD. [1 Samuel 22:17]; And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that did wear a linen ephod. [1 Samuel 22:18]; And Nob, the city of the priests, smote he with the edge of the sword, both men and women, children and sucklings, and oxen, and asses, and sheep, with the edge of the sword. [1 Samuel 22:19]; And Abiathar shewed David that Saul had slain the LORD'S priests. [1 Samuel 22:21]

Saul, even after all of this evil, still thought that He was in favor with God, even claiming that God was delivering King David into his hand, and thus we see a fulfillment of a principle, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. [John 16:2], and thus we shall see this again at the last days, even soon to come, for those religionists which think they honor God in the first [day] of the week [sunday], but are in transgression of the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, even the 4th Commandment speaking of the 7th Day the Sabbath of the Lord thy God [Exodus 20:8-11], even deceived [Revelation 13:14], because they will have chosen such in opposition to God's Law [Psalms 119:126] and refused the counsel of God [Hosea 4:6] against themselves [Luke 7:30], refusing to leave Babylon the Great, that Mother of Harlots, of which God said, Come out of her my people [Revelation 18:4] will seek to eliminate [Revelation 13:12,15,16, 20:4] those which keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus [Revelation 14:12], even hav[ing] the testimony of Jesus Christ [Revelation 12:17]:

And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars. [1 Samuel 23:7]

And so Saul, called even for war against King David, And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. [1 Samuel 23:8], and continually secretly practised mischief against [1 Samuel 23:9] King David, seeking him every day [1 Samuel 23:14] having come out to seek his life [1 Samuel 23:15], and took three thousand men out of all Israel, and when to seek David and his men [1 Samuel 24:2] pursuing David, and huntest the soul [living person] of David to take it [1 Samuel 24:11], for as it is written, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:... [1 Samuel 24:13]. Whereas David sought not to harm Saul, mine hand shall not be upon thee [1 Samuel 24:12,13] Saul on the other hand, have rewarded thee evil [1 Samuel 24:17] of David. The LORD would both judge and avenge [1 Samuel 24:12].

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB) ...

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

Saul blamed everyone but himself for his choices,

That all of you have conspired against me, and [there is] none that sheweth me that my son hath made a league with the son of Jesse, and [there is] none of you that is sorry for me, or sheweth unto me that my son hath stirred up my servant against me, to lie in wait, as at this day? [1 Samuel 22:8]

Saul even after all these, and long before going to the witch of Endor, comes to acknowledge that David would be King,

And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand. [1 Samuel 24:20]; Swear now therefore unto me by the LORD, that thou wilt not cut off my seed after me, and that thou wilt not destroy my name out of my father's house. [1 Samuel 24:21]; And David sware unto Saul. And Saul went home; but David and his men gat them up unto the hold. [1 Samuel 24:22]

Samuel the Prophet, afterward, then dies and the peoples buried him in Ramah,

And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran. [1 Samuel 25:1]

Others of the land already recognize, long before the witch of Endor and her familiar spirit, that David is to be made King in Saul's stead:

I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee [all] thy days. [1 Samuel 25:28]; Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, [as out] of the middle of a sling. [1 Samuel 25:29]; And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel; [1 Samuel 25:30]

Saul still sought to hurt David and takes his own daughter, Michal, David's wife and gives her to another in David's absence in the wilderness, But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife, to Phalti the son of Laish, which [was] of Gallim. [1 Samuel 25:44], and David speaks in the wilderness, even a foretelling, David said furthermore, [As] the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish. [1 Samuel 26:10]; and Saul, though as many times like Pharoah turns back, does not out of true repentance, but still his own words condemn him, ...I have sinned ... I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly. [1 Samuel 26:21]

Then came the Philistines and attacked Israel, and we come to the very texts we are to consider in regards to Samuel the Prophet,

And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men. [1 Samuel 28:1]

Now, let us see what we may gain from all of this background and context in true prayerful study, having asked for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead us into the Word and into all Truth.

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB)...

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

Let us see what we shall gain from these texts:

[1] Samuel had earlier commanded Saul, when he would then listen and obey the LORD, to remove all the wicked which practiced the occult from the land, Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. [1 Samuel 28:3], which was good to do [2 Kings 23:4] for all these which do these things are an abomination unto the LORD, and He would never use these methods to communicate to Saul. Any which used these practices were wicked [2 Chronicles 33:6; 2 Kings 21:6] with false counsel [Isaiah 19:3], for when God speaks to men, he uses Prophets [Amos 3:7], And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. [Number 12:6], [good] Angels, or visions, priests of the Lord and even directly as with Moses [Numbers 12:7] and others, but never sorcery or necromancy. God is clear, Saul did not do righteously, but wickedly, and it was required of him:
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God. [Leviticus 19:31]

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. [Leviticus 20:6]

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God. [Leviticus 20:7] [But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; [1 Peter 1:16] and Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. [1 Peter 1:16]]

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD [am] holy, and have severed you from [other] people, that ye should be mine. [Leviticus 20:26]

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them. [Leviticus 20:27]

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? [Isaiah 8:19]

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. [Isaiah 8:20]

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [Deuteronomy 18:9]

There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, [Deuteronomy 18:10]

Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [Deuteronomy 18:11]

For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. [Deuteronomy 18:12]

Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. [Deuteronomy 18:13]

For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so [to do]. [Deuteronomy 18:14]

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; [Deuteronomy 18:15]

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. [Deuteronomy 18:18]

And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him. [Deuteronomy 18:19]

Saul, instead of eliminating the witch of Endor, spares her life, even swearing by the LORD, in contradiction to His commandments, And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. [1 Samuel 28:10], for she knew well that to practice her sorcery was a death sentence, even by the King's previous decrees and of God, And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? [1 Samuel 28:9], so much so, that Saul also knew that such a decree would slay even himself, and so came to the witch by night and in disguise and in deception [1 Samuel 28:12], And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee. [1 Samuel 28:8]. She even cries aloud at finding out that she had been tricked and came to know it was King Saul who stood before her asking her to do this thing, for she feared for her life [1 Samuel 28:12].

This is not the way of God, which is done openly and in the daylight, I spake openly to the world in secret have I said nothing. [John 18:20], For I [am] the LORD, I change not... [Malachi 3:6]

God never reveals the future through the methods of channelers, but through His chosen prophets and His Word, Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. [Amos 3:7], which is why it must be To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. [Isaiah 8:20], for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. [Revelation 19:10]

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB)...

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

[2] Saul refused to obey the Lord, by the prophet Samuel, and would not listen when the chances were given [1 Samuel 13:8-14, 15:1-33, etc]:

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; [Proverbs 1:24];

But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: [Proverbs 1:25];

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; [Proverbs 1:26];

When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. [Proverbs 1:27];

Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: [Proverbs 1:28];

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: [Proverbs 1:29];

They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. [Proverbs 1:30];

Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. [Proverbs 1:31];

For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. [Proverbs 1:32]

[3] Saul had long ago grieved away the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul [1 Samuel 16:14] and an evil spirit [1 Samuel 16:14,15,16,23, 18:10, 19:9] was continually leading him to sin against God, and so also leading others into sin [1 Samuel 14:24-32, 22:16-24, etc]. Saul would no longer heed the Holy Spirit [Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10; Ephesians 4:30].

[4] The LORD would no longer answer Saul when he enquired by any approved method of God for Saul would not listen, Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets [1 Samuel 28:6] and Saul fully acknowledges this, God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams [1 Samuel 28:15]. Notice, the LORD would not answer by prophets. Samuel was a prophet, even a seer [1 Samuel 9:9,10].

[5] When Saul recognized that the LORD would no longer answer him when he enquired of HIM, he yet even still in rebellion to the Word of God, went to enquire of a woman with a familiar spirit which is forbidden of God, even abomination, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. [1 Samuel 28:7]; as it is written, For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king. [1 Samuel 15:23]

The word used for familiar spirit [Leviticus 19:31, 20:6,27; Deuteronomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:3,7,8,9; 2 Kings 21:6, 23:24; 1 Chronicles 10:13; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Isaiah 8:9, 19:3, 29:4; see also Job 32:19, bottles] is האבות; H'aBVTh, and it means water skin bottle [that which is filled], necromancer, one which has a familiar spirit, a soothsayer, one who divines and possessed by the python [serpent] spirit, a medium or channeler of a false and lying spirit.

[6] Futhermore, we know it was not actually Samuel the Prophet, but a false spirit, a familiar spirit, even that evil spirit, a wicked fallen angel which mimicked the likeness of Samuel, giving a hopeless message of despair by a witch unto the King, even as it is in this our day, For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth... [Revelation 16:14]. Saul was not seeking God, but rather he sought a witch, even ...a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. [1 Samuel 28:7], and asked of her ...I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit... [1 Samuel 28:8].

This was forbidden of God as already shown, and this sin was to cost him everything, and as scripture records, So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it]; [1 Chronicles 10:13]; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. [1 Chronicles 10:14].

Notice, that scripture further declares that this familiar spirit was not actually Samuel at all.

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB) ...

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

[7] To be sure, we may know of a surety that the Prophet Samuel long before any of these events, died [1 Samuel 25:1], and was so dead, without life.

He was not in Heaven, not some immortal ethereal essence floating around somewhere, but rather he himself as it is written was buried...in his house in Ramah [1 Samuel 25:1].

For scripture is clear, the grave [is] mine house [Job 17:13], being asleep even my bed in the darkness [Job 17:13], saying to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister [Job 17:14], he in death, would go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust [Job 17:16].

This is not something new or obscure in the word of God, for it is everywhere written, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust [Psalms 104:29]; Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. [Ecclesiastes 12:7]; till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. [Genesis 3:19], [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more]. [Job 7:9]; He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more. [Job 7:10], etc.

How long? But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? [Job 14:10]; [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: [Job 14:11]; So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. [Job 14:12]; O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [Job 14:13]; If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. [Job 14:14]; Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. [Job 14:15], and the NT speaks the same, even in the mouths of Jesus [John 11, etc], the prophets, Apostles [1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, Revelation, etc].

The word used for died [1 Samuel 25:1] is וימת; VYMTh, and it means to die, perished, put to death, without [the breath of] life, slain.

[8] The woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor [1 Samuel 28:7], could no more call the true prophet Samuel back from the dead, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? [1 Samuel 28:11], than could all the forces of satan together.

For one they have no power to resurrect anyone from the dead and they have no power to command any persons of the Lord, let alone a true prophet of God [2 Kings 1:9-15], like Samuel was even in life, let alone when one is dead and buried, hidden and kept secret with the Lord [Job 14:13].

It is those faithful of the LORD which have power over unclean spirits [Mark 6:7] and power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy [Luke 10:19], and not the other way 'round.

Notice that this was a summoning séance, and not even a resurrection. Every single resurrection in the scripture is in direct contrast to this event! [we shall come to these a bit later, but the contrast should be obvious to any] In resurrections, there is flesh and bones [Luke 24:39], not some ethereal gaseous non-entity, for they which die in the Lord, are to live again, even as Jesus is alive forever more, and as the angels of Heaven [Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:36], which are tangible, not intangible, of substance and having heavenly bodies [1 Corinthians 15], not ethereal incorporeality.

[9] It is clearly written that Samuel came no more unto Saul at all, not even until the day of Saul's death which came after the séance, And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. [1 Samuel 15:33], therefore, since this familiar spirit came unto Saul, at his request, we know it was not actually the prophet Samuel, otherwise scripture would be in direct contraction to itself, and this is impossible [John 10:35].

[10] Saul never actually sees this supposed Samuel, which was shown unto the woman that hath a familiar spirit, but instead asked her what she saw, and it was she which was under the deception of the familiar spirit, who showed unto her a lying image, a form and by her description, he comes to believe it to be Samuel, but it is not, And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul. [1 Samuel 28:12]; And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. [1 Samuel 28:13]; And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. [1 Samuel 28:14].

Satan can mimick the dead or those living, even almost perfectly, even as he will even personate Christ Jesus soon enough, and so devils mimick to bring confusion and death, And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [2 Corinthians 11:14].

Notice that she saw gods [elohim] ascending out of the earth, God speaks elsewhere of this same [Isaiah 29:4]. For those which believe that an 'immortal spirit essence of oneself' returns unto God at death, rather than the breath of life which is given of God until such time as he takes it back unto Himself, will have a strange conundrum, since God dwells in Heaven, not in the dust of the earth.

The Fundamentalist · Feb 27, 2015

Smoky said:
1 Samuel 28:11-12 (NASB)...

This story presents a real dilemma. Samuel was disturbed because he had been brought up. Doesn't this show that the people of Israel believed in some sort of existance in the intermediate state ?

[11] Some have said that the 'prophecy' [1 Samuel 28:16-19] of the Samuel [familiar spirit] came true and is therefore evidence of it being actually the true Samuel, but this is a misunderstanding of what is said of any prophecy, for God had already given in His Word about such, that all are to be tested, Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [1 Thessalonians 5:21]. That if a sign or wonder come to pass as prophesied from one which gave it, but that one prophesying lead unto false ways and caused to not heed the commandments of God, then they are false and shall be put to death:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, [Deuteronomy 13:1];

And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; [Deuteronomy 13:2];

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 13:3];

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. [Deuteronomy 13:4];

And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. [Deuteronomy 13:5]

However, even in this case with Saul, and the familiar spirit, that which was given, was pretty much already known beforehand, and the familiar spirit is merely giving again that which had already been before declared by God previously.

King Saul already grieved away the Holy Spirit, he was scared of the multitudes of the Philistines [1 Samuel 28:5], he had already lost the kingdom to David, he would not listen to the true Prophet Samuel when he was alive, killed the priests of God, etc.

That the familiar spirit concluded that Saul and his sons would be captured was hardly even a 'prophecy', but simply a logical outcome of the choices and events already made. Saul by listening to this familiar spirit, believing it over and above any power of God to deliver, the next day because of it, was sore afraid [1 Samuel 28:20] and sore troubled [1 Samuel 28:21], and when about to be captured, commits suicide [1 Samuel 31:4; 2 Samuel 1:4; 1 Chronicles 10:4].

Go back and re-read all the events that led up this event in Saul's life.

[12] We know that this familiar spirit is not the true Samuel, for it speaks a twisted truth unto King Saul saying, ...and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me [1 Samuel 28:19].

Though King Saul would return to dust, even as Samuel was, King Saul would never again be with Samuel who will be raised from the dust in the First Great Resurrection to come, and Jonathan also unto immortality, while Saul will be raised from the dust a thousand years afterwards in the Second Great Resurrection unto the 2nd death from which there would be no resurrection.

King Saul was wicked and grieved away the Holy Spirit, but Samuel was righteous and died in the Lord. Samuel was dead and buried in Ramah, Saul committed suicide and his head taken, and his body, eventually to be burned, himself become ashes, buried afterward [2 Samuel 2:5] in Jabesh [see also 1 Chronicles 10], therefore Saul was no longer living anywhere but, Saul is dead [2 Samuel 2:7], and without any life, dying outside of the Lord and therefore shall not see life [John 3:36]:

And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish [it in] the house of their idols, and among the people. [1 Samuel 31:9];

And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan. [1 Samuel 31:10];

And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul; [1 Samuel 31:11];

All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there. [1 Samuel 31:12];

And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days. [1 Samuel 31:13]

Additionally, a son of Saul, Ishbosheth [2 Samuel 2:8] did not die the next day, as the familiar spirit said, to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me, but reigned over Israel [2 Samuel 2:10], and was not killed until later [2 Samuel 4:6-8,12].

Smoky · Mar 1, 2015

My only drawback is that the inspired text says that the woman "saw Samuel". It doesn't say she thought she saw him but that in fact she did "see him. Then it says that "Samuel said" not that they thought he said. True God had condemned communication with the dead, but that doesn't mean He couldn't have brought Samuel up as punishment for Saul. Couldn't God have allowed Samuel to be temporarily ressurected as an old man for a while and then go back to the grave ? Lazarus was resurected for a while but he had to face death again. Thanks for the effort. I know it took a lot of effort to post all that.

The Fundamentalist · Mar 5, 2015

Smoky said:
My only drawback ...

Interesting choice of words:

Hebrews 10:38 KJB - Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 KJB - But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Smoky said:
...is that the inspired text says that the woman ...

That "woman" was one with a "familiar spirit", even as already demonstrated to you in quite some detail from the Scripture [KJB]. The "familiar spirit" is the "lying spirit" of satan [John 8:44]. Why believe anything that comes from such a person?

It is amazing that you believe her words, which were influenced by the unclean and unholy spirit, rather than the words of God, and His Holy Spirit.

See [point 4 [God would not answer King Saul by "prophets", of whom Samuel had been in His Life and see also points 5 & 6 on "familiar spirit"] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7867936/#post67096738

See [Points 8 & 10 again on "familiar spirit", etc] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7867936/#post67096746

Smoky said:
... "saw Samuel".

Again, re-read the text.

The Scripture only reads that the "woman" "saw Samuel" after [vs 13 events precede vs 12, for King Saul asked her what she saw [past tense, "sawest"], and when she saw gods ascending [per vs 13], which is re-relating the previous momentary events, then in vs 12, it says she "saw Samuel", but only because that is who King Saul named, and asked for] she divined by the familiar spirit and saw "gods ascending out of the earth".

Here is what is stated in the KJB, and in the previous response which you might need to re-read more slowly, carefully and prayerfully:

"And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. [1 Samuel 28:13]; And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel ..."

Through the lies of the "familiar spirit", she was made to see "An old man" which "cometh up" [take note, that it is "up", not "down"] and that "he [is] covered with a mantle".

It was the deceived King Saul who first asked the woman to "bring me up" "Samuel" [1 Samuel 20:11]. He already gave the name.

King Saul saw nothing, only asking the woman what she "saw", and King Saul, deceived by this, it is written, that in such, he "perceived" that "it [was] Samuel". He believed the lie, even as all will who follow after him in such thinking:

2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJB - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

King Saul asked to see Samuel, and the woman doing her normal routine of divining by the familiar spirit, calls upon it, and it manifests a form that she sees, yet not King Saul. The Scripture simply continues with King Saul's asking to speak to this "Samuel" and when the woman sees this "gods ascending" the Scripture continues to utilize King Saul's designating to speak to this "Samuel". It is not the real Prophet Samuel, clearly.

Yet, again, we know that the wicked have no power those which died in Christ Jesus, and they are "hid[den]" in the grave, kept "secret" and preserved from all evil:

Job 14:13 KJB - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Smoky said:
... It doesn't say she thought she saw him but that in fact she did "see him."

No brother, as just cited you from the Scripture:.

Instead she saw, "I saw gods ascending out of the earth." [1 Samuel 28:13]

Notice the "plural" [not singular], "gods" [elohim, not "Samuel", nor "prophet", nor "seer"].

You are on dangerous ground brother. Turn back.

Smoky said:
...Then it says that "Samuel said" not that they thought he said. ...

1 Samuel 18:25, "And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? ...", must be read in context, from the previous verse, wherein it continues from King Saul which "perceived" that what the "woman" "saw" "gods ascending" unto the lying image of "an old man..." by the "familiar spirit" which King Saul asked the "woman" to "divine" by [1 Samuel 28:8, "divine unto me by the familiar spirit"].

Thus, 1 Samuel 18:25 simply continues with King Saul's declaration, without himself having seen anything, and the woman saying nothing of seeing "Samuel", only the text recording the "name" of what King Saul asked her to bring "up".

You are caught in the lies brother. Scripture accurately records lies, even of the devil, see Genesis 3:4, John 8:44, ect.

Smoky said:
True God had condemned communication with the dead ...

Thank you for the admission to the Truth of the Scipture. Brother, take heed to that warning. God changes not, even the same yesterday, today and forever.

Was Samuel dead? Read the Scriptures again, in the provided points. It says clearly that Samuel was dead and buried in Ramah.

Smoky said:
..., but that doesn't mean He couldn't have brought Samuel up as punishment for Saul.

Why do you add to the text? Nowhere does it say God brought anyone "up".

King Saul asked the "woman" to "bring up" Samuel.

Saul's punishment was already given, and then later had, for rejecting the Word of the LORD, and he died for his sins, including going to the woman to have her divine by the familiar spirit to bring up something in her sorceries...

Beware of adding to the Scripture brother...

Smoky said:
...Couldn't God have allowed Samuel to be temporarily ressurected as an old man for a while and then go back to the grave ?

There was no "resurrection". A word not found in all of the text. A resurrection involves "flesh and bones" [Luke 24:39], etc.

There was no one resurrected here, and again, King Saul saw nothing. The woman only saw what the familiar [lying] spirit presented to her.

Why do you believe all of the liars in this event, yet not God's clear statements in Truth about those who have died, or about the resurrection, or about his clear injunctions against attempting necromancy, etc?

Smoky said:
Lazarus was resurected for a while but he had to face death again. Thanks for the effort. I know it took a lot of effort to post all that.

It was not that much effort. I have these things already to go, having already previously studied them in depth from previous conversations.

Lazarus was resurrected to be sure only to die again to be sure, but again compare that resurrection to this mystical event, wherein there is no body, nothing seen by King Saul, only by the divining woman by the Familiar Spirit [whom works for, or is directly, satan].

Was it really Samuel ?

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