Examining Zechariah 14 & the Olivet Earthquake

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
The Zechariah prophecy regards elements of supercessionism (Israel and Jerusalem are represented by the church at the time of its fulfillment) and the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the 1st century. The Holy Spirit is the river!

As far as Jesus standing on the mount of Olives, it is metaphoric such as is found in Micah 1:3-7, when Samaria fell to the Assyrians.

The Jewish persecutions occurred throughout Asia Minor of multiple nationalities, these are the nations.

Some preterists theorize the "melting of their eyes" could mean when Mt. Vesuvius blew.

Yeah, I've already read that in about 4 commentaries.

The problem is that the context of Zech. 14 isn't supercessionist, earthly Jerusalem is mentioned not only going into captivity but being vindicated, Jesus or a Messiah is never mentioned but rather IHVH Sabaoth, and the plague of the melting of the eyes and flesh appears to be some very real and very physical wasting disease upon those who fight against a very real and very earthly Jerusalem.

What I'm saying is that a supercessionist reading is a superimposition on the text. What this implies is that both a preterist and a dispensationalist reading of Zech. 14 cannot be an accurate reading.

Just reading Zechariah 14, a reader would and could never come to the conclusion that the LORD's Messiah is pictured as standing on the mount of Olives or that this is some notion of a spiritual Israel in the church. It just isn't in Zechariah 14. One must superimpose that on to the text to get that reading. And that's what I'm not willing to do. I'm doing exegesis, not eisegesis.

random person · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
Yeah, I've already read that in about 4 commentaries.

The problem is that the context of Zech. 14 isn't supercessionist, earthly Jerusalem is mentioned not only going into captivity but being vindicated, Jesus or a Messiah is never mentioned but rather IHVH Sabaoth, and the plague of the melting of the eyes and flesh appears to be some very real and very physical wasting disease upon those who fight against a very real and very earthly Jerusalem.

What I'm saying is that a supercessionist reading is a superimposition on the text. What this implies is that both a preterist and a dispensationalist reading of Zech. 14 cannot be an accurate reading.

Just reading Zechariah 14, a reader would and could never come to the conclusion that the LORD's Messiah is pictured as standing on the mount of Olives or that this is some notion of a spiritual Israel in the church. It just isn't isn't in Zechariah 14. One must superimpose that on to the text to get that reading. And that's what I'm not willing to do. I'm doing exegesis, not eisegesis.

It don't matter, the river of living waters came on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem.

It simply don't matter. The text is explicit about the Day of Pentecost IN JERUSALEM.

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
It don't matter, the river of living waters came on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem.

It simply don't matter. The text is explicit about the Day of Pentecost IN JERUSALEM.

I can see how there was a river of living waters in the spirit at the coming of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. I don't deny that.

However, if we are going to be consistent with our usage of 'Jerusalem' in Zech. 14, that interpretation doesn't fit. Because Zech. 14 speaks of a physical breaking forth of flowing living waters out of Jerusalem.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

If you are going to spiritualize the acts in Jerusalem here, you're also going to have to spiritualize the acts in Jerusalem here:

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

It's this very sort of pick-and-choose-at-my-whim in which I refuse to engage. It's bad form and the antithesis of exegesis. It also makes Zech. 14 nonsensical.

So, how exactly did the living waters of the coming of the Spirit on Pentecost half flow toward the eastern sea and half flow toward the western sea, and what is meant by the sea and what is meant by the western and eastern, and when did this all happen on the day of Pentecost?

I don't see anything mentioned about living waters in Acts 2. I do see a mighty rushing wind. I do see 3000 baptized. But I don't see an earthquake on the Mt of Olives and two rivers flowing one to the east and the other to the west. I see one mighty rushing wind giving utterance to the apostles.

Furthermore, the vindication of Zech. 14 occurs after the taking of the city. Acts 2 happens before the taking of the city.

Am I the only one who sees issues here?

random person · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
I can see how there was a river of living waters in the spirit at the coming of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. I don't deny that.

However, if we are going to be consistent with our usage of 'Jerusalem' in Zech. 14, that interpretation doesn't fit. Because Zech. 14 speaks of a physical breaking forth of flowing living waters out of Jerusalem.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

If you are going to spiritualize the acts in Jerusalem here, you're also going to have to spiritualize the acts in Jerusalem here:

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

It's this very sort of pick-and-choose-at-my-whim in which I refuse to engage. It's bad form and the antithesis of exegesis. It also makes Zech. 14 nonsensical.

So, how exactly did the living waters of the coming of the Spirit on Pentecost half flow toward the eastern sea and half flow toward the western sea, and what is meant by the sea and what is meant by the western and eastern, and when did this all happen on the day of Pentecost?

It is not non-sensical because the Jordan river flows north-south, not east-west.

The Jordan river is east of Jerusalem.

Remember Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well?

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
It is not non-sensical because the Jordan river flows north-south, not east-west.

The Jordan river is east of Jerusalem.

Remember Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well?

Ok. What does the Jordan river have to do with Zech. 14?

The living waters that break forth in Zech. 14 break forth from within Jerusalem itself during the time of IHVH's vindication, after the sacking of the city, when there is this earthquake on the Mt of Olives that splits it in half.

The Jordan river isn't even involved here. And you're right, the Jordan river does flow north and south, so what does that have to do with the two rivers mentioned breaking forth from Jerusalem that flow east and west?

random person · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
Ok. What does the Jordan river have to do with Zech. 14?

The living waters that break forth in Zech. 14 break forth from within Jerusalem itself during the time of IHVH's vindication, after the sacking of the city, when there is this earthquake on the Mt of Olives that splits it in half.

The Jordan river isn't even involved here. And you're right, the Jordan river does flow north and south, so what does that have to do with the two rivers mentioned breaking forth from Jerusalem that flow east and west?

Why is the water called "living" that flows out of Jerusalem?

7 A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, ‘Give me a drink’. 8 (His disciples had gone to the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, ‘How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?’ (Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans.)10 Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, “Give me a drink”, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.’ 11 The woman said to him, ‘Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us the well, and with his sons and his flocks drank from it?’ 13 Jesus said to her, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become IN them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.’ 15 The woman said to him, ‘Sir, give me this water, so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.’

John 4:7-15

As far as regarding the splitting of the Mt. Olives, look up Micah 1:3-7 again...

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
Why is the water called "living" that flows out of Jerusalem?

7 A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, ‘Give me a drink’. 8 (His disciples had gone to the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, ‘How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?’ (Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans.)10 Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, “Give me a drink”, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.’ 11 The woman said to him, ‘Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us the well, and with his sons and his flocks drank from it?’ 13 Jesus said to her, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become IN them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.’ 15 The woman said to him, ‘Sir, give me this water, so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.’

John 4:7-15

As far as regarding the splitting of the Mt. Olives, look up Micah 1:3-7 again...

Living waters are spiritualized in John 4 because Jesus spiritualizes them.

I would also have you to know that 'living waters' was also used as a sexual/fertility reference. Jacob's well was the very symbol for sexual fertility of Israel.

The Samaritan woman at the well thought Jesus was hitting on her at first!

That's why she asked him what he had to draw out that 'living water' because the well was deep! Hint, hint. She was getting ready for love! She was a total bimbo and Jesus knew it. She'd already had 6 husbands and didn't seem to mind Jesus' advances.

A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard, Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices: A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon. - Song of Solomon 4:12-15

However, the first and most fundamental meaning of living waters was simply flowing waters of a physical stream, spring, or river. So that still doesn't answer the question of Zech. 14.

random person · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
Living waters are spiritualized in John 4 because Jesus spiritualizes them.

I would also have you to know that 'living waters' was also used as a sexual/fertility reference. Jacob's well was the very symbol for sexual fertility of Israel.

The Samaritan woman at the well thought Jesus was hitting on her at first!

That's why she asked him what he had to draw out that 'living water' because the well was deep! Hint, hint. She was getting ready for love! She was a total bimbo and Jesus knew it. She'd already had 6 husbands and didn't seem to mind Jesus' advances.

A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard, Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices: A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon. - Song of Solomon 4:12-15

However, the first and most fundamental meaning of living waters was simply flowing waters of a physical stream, spring, or river. So that still doesn't answer the question of Zech. 14.

The mount of Olives is IN Jerusalem about 400 yards east of the Old City!

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
The mount of Olives is IN Jerusalem about 400 yards east of the Old City!

Uh, yeah. I think we've established that fact.

Here's the Temple Mount, Zion, and there's the Mount of Olives.

So what point are you trying to make here?

random person · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
Uh, yeah. I think we've established that fact.

Here's the Temple Mount, Zion, and there's the Mount of Olives.

So what point are you trying to make here?

Because the nearest bodies of water to Jerusalem is the Dead Sea and the Jordan River.

The whole flow of the river would have to be radically diverted for the Jordan to flow through and out of Jerusalem.

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
Because the nearest bodies of water to Jerusalem is the Dead Sea and the Jordan River.

The whole flow of the river would have to be radically diverted for the Jordan to flow through and out of Jerusalem.

But Zech. 14 never mentions the Jordan river. It reads

And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The only thing that could be construed as the western sea to Jerusalem would be the Mediterranean Sea, and the only thing that would have been considered the eastern sea is the Great Salt Sea, the Dead Sea. It speaks of a new river of living water flowing half toward the Mediterranean and half toward the Dead Sea. The Jordan is never mentioned. Furthermore, the Jordan river isn't in Jerusalem. Zech. 14 is clearly not referring to the Jordan river. If it had referred to the Jordan river, Zechariah could have very easily written 'Jordan river'.

random person · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
But Zech. 14 never mentions the Jordan river. It reads

And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The only thing that could be construed as the western sea to Jerusalem would be the Mediterranean Sea, and the only thing that would have been considered the eastern sea is the Great Salt Sea, the Dead Sea. It speaks of a new river of living water flowing half toward the Mediterranean and half toward the Dead Sea. The Jordan is never mentioned. Furthermore, the Jordan river isn't in Jerusalem.

And its going to be a river with living waters, remember?

Have you ever considered that these currents are living bodies, spreading the Gospel, both east and west after the Day of Pentecost? Carrying with them the living waters of the Holy Spirit's ministry in the 1st century?

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
And its going to be a river with living waters, remember?

Have you ever considered that these currents are living bodies, spreading the Gospel, both east and west after the Day of Pentecost? Carrying with them the living waters of the Holy Spirit's ministry in the 1st century?

That's all well and fine if you want to spiritualize living waters as the carrying of the Gospel. The Gospel is indeed living waters.

All I ask is that Zech. 14 be accomplished as it is written. If you have living waters flowing from Jerusalem from east to west before the sacking of Jerusalem, then you don't have the living waters that Zech. 14 is referring to, because in Zech. 14, that all happens after the city is taken and during the vindication of IHVH who stands on the Mount of Olives and produces a large earthquake that results in these living waters.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that there shall not be light; the bright ones shall withdraw themselves: 7 but it shall be one day which is known unto Jehovah; not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light.

8 And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

There is another problem with the Acts 2 fulfillment of Zech. 14.

Acts 2 happened in the morning.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying , Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day. - Acts 2:14-15

Zech. 14 happens in the evening.

But it shall be one day which is known unto Jehovah; not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light. - Zech. 14:7

Rev20 · Feb 7, 2015

random person said:
And its going to be a river with living waters, remember?

Have you ever considered that these currents are living bodies, spreading the Gospel, both east and west after the Day of Pentecost? Carrying with them the living waters of the Holy Spirit's ministry in the 1st century?

That is not possible for a so-called "literalist" to understand, RP.

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

Rev20 said:
That is not possible for a so-called "literalist" to understand, RP.

I'm all for spiritualizing, I just like to be consistent.

So if we are going to spiritualize Zech. 14 and then superimpose Acts 2 over it, then Zechariah's spiritual 'evening' is Peter's literal 'morning'?

So God uses spiritual evening to represent physical morning?

And the vindication and earthquake God spiritually promises to take place after the captivity of Jerusalem, literally takes place before the captivity of Jerusalem?

Am I being too 'literalist' or too 'spiritualist' here?

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

Another interesting issue during the Vindication is that the saints are seen as coming with IHVH in vindication of His Name and Jerusalem. And Zechariah turns away from speaking to the audience of those he is prophecying against and says in vision 'And Jehovah my God shall come and all the holy ones with thee!' as if having shunned the very enemies he is speaking against. So this is not an isolated vindication. All the holy ones are with him in this battle against Jerusalem's enemies. And still, it is speaking of earthly Jerusalem in context.

Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrG12FP7tqs

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

If you want enter into the truly asinine, just consider how Muslims interpret Zech. 14:9 concerning the One Name of God.

Zechariah prophesied:
"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth, in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name one." (Zech. 14:9)

All Muslims, anywhere on the earth, speaking totally different languages, recognise the name "Allah", thus fulfilling this prophecy, "his name one". (All Christians, to take an example, do not recognise (sic) a single name of God, and therefore do not fulfil this prophecy.)
Allah, the unique name of God

If that isn't enough to make you shoot fire out your nose and ears, it should simply be noted that this does not stand under linguistic scrutiny.

The verse reads

וְהָיָה יְהוָה לְמֶלֶךְ עַל־ כָּל־ הָאָרֶץ בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא יִהְיֶה יְהוָה אֶחָד וּשְׁמוֹ אֶחָֽד׃

wĕ-háyáh yĕhwáh lĕ-melekĕ ʻal־ ká̇l־ háʼáreẕ bȧẏwòm hahẇʼ yihĕyeh yĕhwáh ʼeẖád ẇşĕ̌mwò ʼeẖáֽd׃

And in that Day, IHVH shall be King over all the earth: there shall be one IHVH, and his Name shall be one.

This not only implies that the only name mankind at that time will use to refer to God be IHVH, but that ALLAH will never be used again as His Name.

For this prophecy to be fulfilled to the uttermost, it implies that ALLAH and the adherents of ALLAH are no more. For in that Day, IHVH alone shall be King; there shall be one IHVH and His Name One and alone. For IHVH will be king of the earth. If this does not refer to the whole planet earth, then we must at least acknowledge that it refers to the whole Israeli land. And yet, we do not see this as a reality today, for there are many who refer to their god as ALLAH even in Israel, and who will not name the Name IHVH.

This implies that Muslims are among those enemies of Jerusalem that are dealt with in the prophecy of Zech. 14.

The point in this is that Muslims are forcing the issue. They claim that the one Name is ALLAH. What do you claim the one Name to be?

Douggg · Feb 7, 2015

The point in this is that Muslims are forcing the issue. They claim that the one Name is ALLAH. What do you claim the one Name to be?

Jesus.

Douggg · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
But Zech. 14 never mentions the Jordan river. It reads
And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
The only thing that could be construed as the western sea to Jerusalem would be the Mediterranean Sea, and the only thing that would have been considered the eastern sea is the Great Salt Sea, the Dead Sea. It speaks of a new river of living water flowing half toward the Mediterranean and half toward the Dead Sea. The Jordan is never mentioned. Furthermore, the Jordan river isn't in Jerusalem. Zech. 14 is clearly not referring to the Jordan river. If it had referred to the Jordan river, Zechariah could have very easily written 'Jordan river'.

Topograhic features are going to change from the present because of....

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Examining Zechariah 14 & the Olivet Earthquake

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1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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