Why innocents suffer ?

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The whole premise is wrong here. The question isn't 'why bad things happen to good people?' When Adam sinned, he broke the universe, not just himself. Sin, sickness and death are all part of life now. Even if you don't believe we bear the cost of original sin, we are all rebels who choose to do wrong. So, there are no 'good' people who don't deserve whatever happens to them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: visionary
Upvote 0

Danoh

Newbie
Oct 11, 2011
3,064
310
✟40,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"So, there are no 'good' people who don't deserve whatever happens to them."

----------

Once, while repairing a window frame that had begun to rot out for an uncle of mine who just loved a good debate. I pointed to the rotted wood and related 'See that there; that is the result of sin....'

Right off, he responded a bit perturbed, with, "so you're telling me the window rotted because of some sin on my part; is that it!"

'No,' I replied, 'you're reading into my words... what I said was that that window rotted because of sin - I did not say because of some sin on your part...'

In short, this fallen creation - even the weather is out of sorts, thus, the storms, hurricanes, monsoons, earthquakes, etc., that end up killing "the least of these little ones" that the Lord of all creation had been so moved to pause before, for a moment, to so lovingly relate "of such is the kingdom of heaven."

When that Tsunami hit Southeast Asia those years ago, I was devastated over the horrendous loss of all those "little ones."

I turned to the Scripture on these things - "that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now," Rom. 8:22.

But also, its contrast - that Tsunami of all Tsunamis The Father had had to endure as His Son died before His eyes, as the Father had had to allow Him to
"that the sufferings of this present time" might be "not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

God is at work.

Not in winning football games, and job searches, or what have you...

But in His Son as to His one day solving for "the sufferings of this present time."

Romans 8:

19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

In Scripture, hope is a knowing confidence.

Only the perspective of the world views hope as some sort of an uncertainty.

Thus, when we suffer, we can actually boast in our suffering, that nevertheless, all is well, in Him, as all will be well in Him in that day - note what our attitude can be during such distresses - Philippians 1:

20. According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

"Wherefore [for this reason] comfort one another with these words," 1 Thess. 4:18
 
  • Like
Reactions: visionary
Upvote 0

Truthfrees

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 20, 2015
13,791
2,913
✟277,188.00
Faith
Word of Faith
The whole premise is wrong here. The question isn't 'why bad things happen to good people?' When Adam sinned, he broke the universe, not just himself. Sin, sickness and death are all part of life now. Even if you don't believe we bear the cost of original sin, we are all rebels who choose to do wrong.

In short, this fallen creation - even the weather is out of sorts, thus, the storms, hurricanes, monsoons, earthquakes, etc., that end up killing "the least of these little ones" that the Lord of all creation had been so moved to pause before, for a moment, to so lovingly relate "of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Are you both talking about the Genesis 3 curse?

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

Danoh

Newbie
Oct 11, 2011
3,064
310
✟40,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Are you both talking about the Genesis 3 curse?

:wave:

My own understanding actually goes back further then Genesis 3.

Back to Lucifer's fall, from favor before God, together with that angelic realm that followed him.

Genesis 3 merely Lucifer's continuing forward of his already well on its way trafficking in iniquity.

In this, I see two falls that God not only foresaw, but that He purposed His solving for in His Son by the Spirit.

Israel's prophets address the Genesis 3 fall and its solving for.

While the Apostle Paul's writings [Romans thru Philemon] concern that first fall and its solving for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: visionary
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Please read carefully.
Gilgulim is not just a colorful idea that exists for no reason.

It has meaning and value relative to Biblical exegesis, explaining the scriptures, clarifying obscure laws and passages and prophecies.

There are many passages in scripture where Elokim - on the surface of the text - appears to be blaming or punishing one generation for the deeds of the previous generation.

A good answer to this obviously unjust and illogical blame is Gilgulim.

Hashem himself acknowledges the unjustness of this misunderstanding (Jere. 31:29-30) and specifies that nobody suffers for another's sin. This is however a mere contradiction of himself, his word against his word, and a third element must be used to solve this strange contradiction. For example, the Torah clearly says that Egyptians are, for a certain amount of generations, not allowed into the congregation of Israel. So is the Word of Hashem contradicting itself here ?
No, not at all, if we understand that those Egyptians are the same Egyptians that tormented Israel. They were reborn for a certain amount of time to make Tikkun. Other groups suffered similar fates (Deut. 23:2-8).


Gilgulim means:

- that people born with physical or mental problems will live again in this age, in a normal human situation, and hence special provisions (like Limbo) don't have to be invented for them

- that children who are born and only live a few hours, days or years will live again in this age, in a normal human situation (ie full life, eg. 70 yrs), and hence special provisions (like Limbo) don't have to be invented for them

- that people don't get off scot-free due to their deathbed confessions (btw, if they did, I'm sure even Hitler would get off scot-free !)

- that everyone suffers for their own sin, rather than for someone else's

- that everyone born into an unfair situation gets a new chance to live a full life so that they can be fairly judged at the Trial of Hashem.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
So, there are no 'good' people who don't deserve whatever happens to them.
__________________
So when Jesus said Go and sin no more does that mean that Mary Magdelyn (sp) was still not a good person??? Does that mean that Jesus died in vain??? I believe that it takes more than a good person to go to heaven. I spoke to a woman in Target the other day and asked if she was a believer. she said no but I am a good person. It takes more than this.

When a child dies, what sin does he die for?
And how is the situation rectified?

The rectification of this situation is gilgulim.
He doesn't just go to hell, as Catholicism teaches, nor to heaven, as Mormonism teaches, rather he gets to live a full life until he is ready to be judged fairly.
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
The whole premise is wrong here. The question isn't 'why bad things happen to good people?' When Adam sinned, he broke the universe, not just himself. Sin, sickness and death are all part of life now. Even if you don't believe we bear the cost of original sin, we are all rebels who choose to do wrong. So, there are no 'good' people who don't deserve whatever happens to them.


Your attempt to change the premise doesn't help you. You are simply saying that we all suffer because of Adam (contrast the word of God, Jeremiah 31:29-30).

Then, separately from that, you bring in the idea that we are all rebels who deserve to suffer even without reference to Adam's sin. How does any of that explain infant mortality, siamese twins or Down's ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Not everything is isolated to "your fault". There is a bigger picture here. It will sweep all in its path.

Why do innocents suffer ?
Why do people suffer unduly ?
Why do babies die ?
Why are some people born with two heads and no eyes ?
Why do good people sometimes suffer more than bad people ?

It certainly doesn't make sense to say "they deserve it", based on their earthly life as it is known to us. But maybe they had a previous life, or will have a life after this one, which, if it were known to us, would make complete sense of the whole - apparently unjust - situation.

As I said on the previous page, Gilgulim exists for a reason, it actually explains many obscure and strange laws and passages and prophecies.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
Why do innocents suffer ?
Why do people suffer unduly ?
Why do babies die ?
Why are some people born with two heads and no eyes ?
Why do good people sometimes suffer more than bad people ?

It certainly doesn't make sense to say "they deserve it", based on their earthly life as it is known to us. But maybe they had a previous life, or will have a life after this one, which, if it were known to us, would make complete sense of the whole - apparently unjust - situation.

As I said on the previous page, Gilgulim exists for a reason, it actually explains many obscure and strange laws and passages and prophecies.
Hurricane strikes, volcanoes blow, tsunami waves crash, etc... but does any of this have to do with individual sins in this life or any other... NO...

There is no other life indicated in scripture but the one God has given us and the only portal into the next life is through the resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
It certainly doesn't make sense to say "they deserve it", based on their earthly life as it is known to us. But maybe they had a previous life, or will have a life after this one, which, if it were known to us, would make complete sense of the whole - apparently unjust - situation.
_______________________________________________________________________

This would mean that the One and Only True Living God is unjust rather than JUST!!! Maybe he will grant this perpetual cycle to you!!! As for me I accept HIS FORGIVENESS!!! Does this mean I won't suffer any more while I am here??? NO!!! But Jesus said that our reward is in Heaven and not to store up treasures that Can't be stored in heaven!!!

Your comment makes no sense to me.

God rectifies unjust situations, that's what I am saying. Apparently unjust situations are actually rectified or are themselves rectifications.


" Maybe he will grant this perpetual cycle to you!!! "

OK so now you believe in Gilgul ?
For you information, it is not perpetual. It could only last until the Resurrection / Judgment day.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Hurricane strikes, volcanoes blow, tsunami waves crash, etc... but does any of this have to do with individual sins in this life or any other... NO...

There is no other life indicated in scripture but the one God has given us and the only portal into the next life is through the resurrection.

I notice you don't provide any kind of answer to my questions.... actually it seems you are saying God is unjust ?

"Hurricane strikes, volcanoes blow, tsunami waves crash, etc... but does any of this have to do with individual sins in this life or any other... NO... "

So God causes or allows innocent people to suffer. Babies die and go straight to hell then, per Catholic doctrine, I guess is what you are saying. Or you invent something like Limbo for them. Or they go straight to heaven, and hence, we should all envy the infant mortalities, since they don't even have a chance to go to hell.

"There is no other life indicated in scripture but the one God has given us and the only portal into the next life is through the resurrection."

That I disagree with, but for you information, there is such a thing as Oral Torah where these ancient traditions are found. They are also hinted at, indirectly, in scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Gilgulim is said to have long been kept secret and, unlike most other parts of the Oral Tradition, not been written down or even made public until relatively late times.
It appears the earliest definite mentions of Gilgulim appear to be from the time of the Gaonim (589-1040 CE), at which point discussion of the subject quickly flourished among certain sages, who appear to have been specially interested.
Rabbinic tradition purports to hand down ancient teachings, hence it is believed a doctrine can be much older than the earliest manuscript mentioning the doctrine.
The history of Gilgulim is known to us today to the extent it is mentioned, whether in the spirit of acceptance or rejection, in the writings of famous Rabbis.

Hai Gaon (939-1038 CE), Nachmanides (Ramban), Isaac Luria, Baal Shem Tov (and hence the Chasidim) and the Vilna Gaon accepted it, whereas Saadia Gaon (882-942 CE), David Kimchi and Joseph Albo, among others, rejected it.
It is hard to determine how broadly the teaching is accepted or viewed with favor among Jews today, however judging by how much modern Rabbis have to say on it, and how much material is now available online, it seems to be not the obscure or hidden doctrine it once was. A noteworthy development is that it is now much easier to come across Jewish sources arguing for Gilgulim than against, with the argument against Gilgulim primarily coming from non-Jews.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
Your comment makes no sense to me.

God rectifies unjust situations, that's what I am saying. Apparently unjust situations are actually rectified or are themselves rectifications.


" Maybe he will grant this perpetual cycle to you!!! "

OK so now you believe in Gilgul ?
For you information, it is not perpetual. It could only last until the Resurrection / Judgment day.
God's hand is involved in all aspects, for His glory. Rectification will often have to wait until God says enough, be it soon, but we know it will come.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
I notice you don't provide any kind of answer to my questions.... actually it seems you are saying God is unjust ?

"Hurricane strikes, volcanoes blow, tsunami waves crash, etc... but does any of this have to do with individual sins in this life or any other... NO... "

So God causes or allows innocent people to suffer. Babies die and go straight to hell then, per Catholic doctrine, I guess is what you are saying. Or you invent something like Limbo for them. Or they go straight to heaven, and hence, we should all envy the infant mortalities, since they don't even have a chance to go to hell.

"There is no other life indicated in scripture but the one God has given us and the only portal into the next life is through the resurrection."

That I disagree with, but for you information, there is such a thing as Oral Torah where these ancient traditions are found. They are also hinted at, indirectly, in scripture.
God is more than just, He is righteous in the presence of Eternity. Ours is but a moment, and "right now" is our attitude. The idea that God causes sin, suffering, etc is only correct in that God allows it for now. When He is finished with dealing with sin and all that goes with it, you will not find no sign that God cause any pain, suffering, sin, or death in all of eternity. This is a clear message we should all take to heart that God is not the author of the dark side. He is however, the one who will take responsibility for it, until the Day of Atonement when He will lay it on the shoulders of the scapegoat where it belongs. Forever away from His people..
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
God is more than just, He is righteous in the presence of Eternity. Ours is but a moment, and "right now" is our attitude. The idea that God causes sin, suffering, etc is only correct in that God allows it for now. When He is finished with dealing with sin and all that goes with it, you will not find no sign that God cause any pain, suffering, sin, or death in all of eternity. This is a clear message we should all take to heart that God is not the author of the dark side. He is however, the one who will take responsibility for it, until the Day of Atonement when He will lay it on the shoulders of the scapegoat where it belongs. Forever away from His people..

Will people with Siamese Twins syndrome or Down's syndrome, or those who only live a few minutes, get to live a full, normal human life before the final judgment, or not ?
It's a very simple question.
 
Upvote 0