Who will be in the land during Daniel's seventieth week?

BABerean2 · Feb 1, 2015

Douggg said:
BAberean2, while Antiochus did sacrifice a pig in the temple, that was not the Abomination of Desolation act that Antiochus committed. Antiochus also had a statue of Zeus placed in the temple. A standing object.

Jesus said when you (the Jews) see the Abomination of Desolation "standing" in the holy place.... Which refers to a statue of sorts "standing", not a unclean animal sacrificed, which would not be the first century event.

The Abomination of Desolation statue, an image, will be that which the false prophet has made in Revelation 13.

Also in Daniel 12, the Abomination Desolation will be something that is "setup".

Daniel 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

Sacrificing a pig on the altar would most certainly be considered an abomination to the temple priests and to God, since it violates the Ordinances under the Mosaic Law.

The historian Josephus records that Roman soldiers made a sacrifice to Titus as he stood in what was left of the temple in 70 AD.

You cannot ignore the text of Luke 21:20 and how it applies to Luke 21:24, without being dishonest with the text.

The warning that Christ gave the disciples about being persecuted in the synagogues clearly occurred during the lifetime of the Apostles and is recorded in the NT. Do you believe this is a future event, also?

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Rev20 · Feb 1, 2015

m423156 said:
(let him that readeth understand) - Matthew 24:15

I am happy to see you finally understand the parallels between the abominations in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Douggg · Feb 1, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Sacrificing a pig on the altar would most certainly be considered an abomination to the temple priests and to God, since it violates the Ordinances under the Mosaic Law.

Agreed. But the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus spoke of "stands" in the holy place.

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

The animals were slaughtered in the inner courtyard.

The burning of the slaughtered animals takes place on the "brazen altar" outside of the sanctuary building. The sanctuary building itself has a holy room, and a holy of holies room.

Here is an artist rendition showing the brazen altar outside of the sanctuary. (from templeinstitute.org)

keras · Feb 1, 2015

Correction, BaB;
Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book V1, chapter V1, section 1: And now the Romans, upon the flight of the Jewish rebels into the city, after the Holy House was burned, they brought their ensigns and set them up near the Eastern gate, and there did offer sacrifices to them and there did they make Titus Imperator with great acclamations of joy.
The Romans didn't sacrifice to Titus, it was to their Imperial Legion ensigns.
It wasn't in the Temple or in the Temple ruins, but by the East gate, where there would be a clear area.
We still await a complete and literal fulfilment of an 'Abomination of Desolation' which will be placed in the new Temple that will be built by the righteous Israelites who will go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after the Day of the Lord's wrath clears and cleanses it.
Paul makes that clear in 2 Thess 2:3-4. [the Day of the Lord, he is referring to there, is the Glorious Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev 16:14, Rev 19:11: the Return of Jesus.]

ebedmelech · Feb 1, 2015

Everything Antiochus did was the AofD from the time he entered the temple.

That should be very clear when you consider God gave King Uzziah leprosy for offering in the temple because he was not a priest...2 Chronicles 26:16-21.

The passage of Daniel 11:26-35 leaves no doubt it was Antiochus, he set it up. This is even in the Jewish Encyclopedia:
ANTIOCHUS IV., EPIPHANES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

There are to many secular and religious writings on it, to deny it.

Daniel 12 also makes mention of the AofD.

The AofD committed by the Romans in 70 AD as they defiled the temple and destroyed it as Jesus said "there will no be left one stone upon another" was at the tail end of the great tribulation.

BABerean2 · Feb 1, 2015

keras said:
Correction, BaB;
Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book V1, chapter V1, section 1: And now the Romans, upon the flight of the Jewish rebels into the city, after the Holy House was burned, they brought their ensigns and set them up near the Eastern gate, and there did offer sacrifices to them and there did they make Titus Imperator with great acclamations of joy.
The Romans didn't sacrifice to Titus, it was to their Imperial Legion ensigns.
It wasn't in the Temple or in the Temple ruins, but by the East gate, where there would be a clear area.
We still await a complete and literal fulfilment of an 'Abomination of Desolation' which will be placed in the new Temple that will be built by the righteous Israelites who will go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after the Day of the Lord's wrath clears and cleanses it.
Paul makes that clear in 2 Thess 2:3-4. [the Day of the Lord, he is referring to there, is the Glorious Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev 16:14, Rev 19:11: the Return of Jesus.]

You are implying that the ensigns had nothing to do with Titus. It says they made Titus Imperator.

Are you claiming Luke 21:20 has never happened?

Has Luke 21:24 happened in the past?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2015

m423156 said:
I'm not the one who divided the 7 years of the 70th week from the beginning of a 40 year generation to its end. Jesus Christ did. So this is one example. I never said anything about 1000s of years of indefinite time inserted. There are 40 definite years inserted. Christ began in Elul of 25 and died in at Tishri of 29. 3 and 1/2 years. The siege of Jerusalem began in Kislev of 66 and ended at Elul of 70: 3 and 1/2 years. There is the 7 years of the 70th week, and 40 Hebrew years of the generation.

You still have a 70 week timeline with 40 years (or 5 week + a few days) tossed into the middle of it. You end up with a 76.75 weeks instead of 70 weeks of years).

I don't see Daniel 9 pointing to 76.75 weeks.

And your model admits that the 69 weeks are all contiguous - you insert a 40 year gap in the middle of the week.?

Jesus said that the abomination of desolation is outside of the 70 weeks - it is one of the events mentioned in Dan 9 but not all events in Dan 9 happen inside the 70 week timeline.

Matt 24 includes the 2nd coming.

So it goes well beyond the 70 weeks as well.

Luke 21:24 is in our past and it is future to Matt 24.

Douggg · Feb 1, 2015

BABerean2 said:
BABerean2, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you that the Luke 21 passages of Jerusalem's destruction refer to the near term 70 AD destruction of the Temple and city. Also corresponds to Daniel 9:26.

But the Matthew 24 passages regarding the abomination of desolation are end times, the 2015 generation.

BABerean2 · Feb 1, 2015

Douggg said:
BABerean2 said:

BABerean2, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you that the Luke 21 passages of Jerusalem's destruction refer to the near term 70 AD destruction of the Temple and city. Also corresponds to Daniel 9:26.

But the Matthew 24 passages regarding the abomination of desolation are end times, the 2015 generation.

Click to expand...

The only difference in the 3 Gospels is the fact that Luke's Gospel spells it out for us.

...................................................................

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Occurred in 70 AD)

Also, we need to remember that the Roman 12th Legion under Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem in the Fall of 66 AD.
For some unknown reason he left and suffered heavy losses in the retreat.

.

Rev20 · Feb 1, 2015

keras said:
Correction, BaB;
Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book V1, chapter V1, section 1: And now the Romans, upon the flight of the Jewish rebels into the city, after the Holy House was burned, they brought their ensigns and set them up near the Eastern gate, and there did offer sacrifices to them and there did they make Titus Imperator with great acclamations of joy.
The Romans didn't sacrifice to Titus, it was to their Imperial Legion ensigns.
It wasn't in the Temple or in the Temple ruins, but by the East gate, where there would be a clear area.
We still await a complete and literal fulfilment of an 'Abomination of Desolation' which will be placed in the new Temple that will be built by the righteous Israelites who will go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after the Day of the Lord's wrath clears and cleanses it.
Paul makes that clear in 2 Thess 2:3-4. [the Day of the Lord, he is referring to there, is the Glorious Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev 16:14, Rev 19:11: the Return of Jesus.]

Keras, how do you factor in the fact that all the land of Judaea, maybe all of Israel, was considered holy?

"And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again." -- Zec 2:12

The Lord had already left the temple before most of the Roman armies were in diapers. Therefore, what was the abomination, other than the arrival of the Roman armies on the holy soil?

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto." -- Luke 21:20-21 KJV

The Roman armies under Cestius arrived and then left (Josephus, "Wars," Book II.19), allowing the Christians the opportunity to leave Jerusalem before the armies returned, after which time there would be little or no opportunity to escape. Therefore, Jesus could only be referring to the arrival of Cestius in Luke 21:20-21.

Jesus also said that the "desolation" would be nigh after the arrival of the armies, not the abomination. Therefore, the "abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" was most likely the arrival of the Roman armies under Cestius.

Douggg · Feb 1, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Douggg said:

The only difference in the 3 Gospels is the fact that Luke's Gospel spells it out for us.

...................................................................

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Occurred in 70 AD)

Also, we need to remember that the Roman 12th Legion under Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem in the Fall of 66 AD.
For some unknown reason he left and suffered heavy losses in the retreat.

.

Click to expand...

The abomination of desolation is not referred to in Luke 21.

Differently, it is the desolation of the city in Luke 21.

BABerean2 · Feb 1, 2015

Douggg said:
BABerean2 said:

The abomination of desolation is not referred to in Luke 21.

Differently, it is the desolation of the city in Luke 21.

Click to expand...

Are you saying the Abomination of Desolation spoken of in Matthew and Mark's Gospels had nothing to do with the city being surrounded by the Roman army before the siege of 70 AD, as spelled out for us in Luke 21:20 and Luke 21:24?

Are you saying this event has not happened yet?

.

Danoh · Feb 1, 2015

Douggg said:
BABerean2 said:

The abomination of desolation is not referred to in Luke 21.

Differently, it is the desolation of the city in Luke 21.

Click to expand...

There ya go - someone who pays attention to the minutest of details between the things that differ and thus, to the differences between those two above.

Lol, you must've been reading the whole of Daniel rather than just one or two passages

keras · Feb 1, 2015

Rev20, the Holy Land I am referring to is all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates that was given by God to Abraham. Genesis 15:18-21 God's chosen people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the ancient Israelites never totally inhabited all of it and they sinned, so God orchestrated the exile first of Israel, then Judah. The partial return of Judah has happened, but we await the full re-joining of both Houses, as described in Ezekiel 37. The new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 will at last encompass all that area.

BaB, There was an obvious fulfilment of prophecy in 70 CE. But there were never the signs in the heavens: sun darkened, moon blood red, stars falling, etc at that time. There is yet to come a literal fulfilment of Daniels Temple desecration and Rev. 13.

ebedmelech · Feb 1, 2015

When you put Matthew 24 and Luke 21:10-37 they are the same thing.

The difference is Matthew writes to a Jews, which is why he points out s omany fulfilled prophecies in his gospel.

Luke is writing to a Gentile named Theophilus, therefore Luke doesn't expect a Gentile to understand because he knows they're culture is not that of the Jews, so Luke uses plainer language.

When Matthew spells out the AofD, he speaks so Jews understand because they've been brought up under the Old Covenant.

When it comes to the AofD in Luke...Luke says it in Luke 21:20-24 so Gentiles will know what's happening, because they have not been brought up under the Old Covenant.

The classic way futurist avoid this is to say they're two different events, which boggles the mind.

Matthew says in Matthew 24:15-16:
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

Luke says in Luke 21:20, 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

How are these to passages, not the same thing? The only thing to understand, is when Rome surrounds Jerusalem, the temple is about to be defiled, because they are Gentiles, and if we understand the Law NO JEW who is not a Levite, and CERTAINLY NO GENTILE was to enter the temple.

God gave Uzziah leprosy for trying to offer incense because He was warned by Azariah not to do that, Uzziah did it anyway. (2 Chronicles 26:16-23).

Douggg · Feb 1, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Douggg said:

Are you saying the Abomination of Desolation spoken of in Matthew and Mark's Gospels had nothing to do with the city being surrounded by the Roman army before the siege of 70 AD, as spelled out for us in Luke 21:20 and Luke 21:24?

Are you saying this event has not happened yet?

.

Click to expand...

The abomination of desolation is not in Luke 21.

I am saying that the abomination of desolation event, which is in Matthew 24, but not Luke 21, that Jesus referred back to what is written in Daniel 12 has not happened yet.

When a person goes back and reads what is written in Daniel 12, the abomination of desolation event in Daniel 12 is end times which is characterized by what it says in Daniel 12:4.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So the understanding (by them who are going to need to know, the Jews) is sealed up until the end times.

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

The Jews who are the "ye" in verse 15, don't understand right now because they are clueless about Revelation 13, the image of the beast, because they think that the new testament prophecies are fairy tales.

But when the time comes and they realize their mistake in having rejected Jesus and begin to get persecuted by their former (Antichrist) messiah, they are going to put it all together. No doubt helped by the two witnesses who will be testifying to them at the time.

Danoh · Feb 1, 2015

ebedmelech said:
When you put Matthew 24 and Luke 21:10-37 they are the same thing.

The difference is Matthew writes to a Jews, which is why he points out s omany fulfilled prophecies in his gospel.

Luke is writing to a Gentile named Theophilus, therefore Luke doesn't expect a Gentile to understand because he knows they're culture is not that of the Jews, so Luke uses plainer language.

When Matthew spells out the AofD, he speaks so Jews understand because they've been brought up under the Old Covenant.

When it comes to the AofD in Luke...Luke says it in Luke 21:20-24 so Gentiles will know what's happening, because they have not been brought up under the Old Covenant.

The classic way futurist avoid this is to say they're two different events, which boggles the mind.

Matthew says in Matthew 24:15-16:
15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

Luke says in Luke 21:20, 21:
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

How are these to passages, not the same thing? The only thing to understand, is when Rome surrounds Jerusalem, the temple is about to be defiled, because they are Gentiles, and if we understand the Law NO JEW who is not a Levite, and CERTAINLY NO GENTILE was to enter the temple.

God gave Uzziah leprosy for trying to offer incense because He was warned by Azariah not to do that, Uzziah did it anyway. (2 Chronicles 26:16-23).

You are assuming that "The classic way futurist avoid this is to say they're two different events, which" is why it "boggles the mind."

You do not see it, it is therefore not there, which means - to you - "The classic way futurist avoid this is to say they're two different events, which boggles the mind."

As if you have some crystal ball handle on everyone's heart who attempts to understand these things and find that - yep, they are all after avoiding actually wanting to know.

You need to let go of that kind of a one size fits all thinking. A one size fits all approach is exactly why you and those who go by such an approach cannot see these things in the passages.

BABerean2 · Feb 2, 2015

Douggg said:
BABerean2 said:

The abomination of desolation is not in Luke 21.

I am saying that the abomination of desolation event, which is in Matthew 24, but not Luke 21, that Jesus referred back to what is written in Daniel 12 has not happened yet.

When a person goes back and reads what is written in Daniel 12, the abomination of desolation event in Daniel 12 is end times which is characterized by what it says in Daniel 12:4.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So the understanding (by them who are going to need to know, the Jews) is sealed up until the end times.

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

The Jews who are the "ye" in verse 15, don't understand right now because they are clueless about Revelation 13, the image of the beast, because they think that the new testament prophecies are fairy tales.

But when the time comes and they realize their mistake in having rejected Jesus and begin to get persecuted by their former (Antichrist) messiah, they are going to put it all together. No doubt helped by the two witnesses who will be testifying to them at the time.

Click to expand...

This is a classic case of Futurists ignoring what is plainly written in scripture, because it does not fit their eschatology.

You are ripping this verse from it's grammatical and historical context as a past event and placing it in the future. It is like pounding a square peg into a round hole of the same diameter, with a sledgehammer. It can be done, but you are going to do some damage in the process.
It this case, you are damaging the intent of the scripture.

The "ye" here is not the Jews of the modern world. The first century Christians followed the words of Christ and left the city before the final siege of 70 AD. It is a historical fact, just as the persecution of the Apostles in the synagogues is a historical fact recorded in the NT.

Even most Futurists admit that Luke 21:24 is a past event. However, somehow Luke 21:20 is not a past event, according to Futurists, and the desolation in the verse has nothing to do with the desolation mentioned in the parallel passages from the other two Gospel accounts, even though the verse that follows it has the same command to flee to the mountains.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

And then Futurists claim they interpret scripture "literally".

Douggg · Feb 2, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Douggg said:

This is a classic case of Futurists ignoring what is plainly written in scripture, because it does not fit their eschatology.

Click to expand...

It says in Daniel 12:4
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

That does not fit your eschatology, BABerean2.

It says in Matthew 24
Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

That does not fit your eschatology, BABerean2. Luke 21 doesn't contain any statements regarding the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Historically, in 70 AD there was not anything "setup" in the holy place
which the holy place is inside of the sanctuary building. The brazen altar is outside in the courtyard. So history doesn't support your eschatology, either.

You are ripping this verse from it's grammatical and historical context as a past event and placing it in the future. It is like pounding a square peg into a round hole of the same diameter, with a sledgehammer. It can be done, but you are going to do some damage in the process.
It this case, you are damaging the intent of the scripture.

Click to expand...

You don't use Daniel 12:4 anywhere to support your eschatology because your eschatology is wrong. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The "ye" here is not the Jews of the modern world. The first century Christians followed the words of Christ and left the city before the final siege of 70 AD. It is a historical fact, just as the persecution of the Apostles in the synagogues is a historical fact recorded in the NT.

Click to expand...

No-one fled into the mountains because of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Them who did flee, upon heeding Jesus's words was based upon seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies in Luke 21.

Even most Futurists admit that Luke 21:24 is a past event. However, somehow Luke 21:20 is not a past event, according to Futurists, and the desolation in the verse has nothing to do with the desolation mentioned in the parallel passages from the other two Gospel accounts, even though the verse that follows it has the same command to flee to the mountains.

Click to expand...

You are constructing a "lie" against futurists. All futurists claim that the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD is fulfillment of Luke 21:20 and Matthew 23:37-38, and what is written in Daniel 9:26 regarding the destruction of the sanctuary and city. So that part of your statement is a "lie".

It is true that futurists go with what the bible says regarding the abomination of desolation, which will take place when Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. ....as being end times. Not a past event.

Mat 24:16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

And then Futurists claim they interpret scripture "literally".

Click to expand...

Another lie against futurists. Futurists interpret scripture as being in some cases metaphoric and in some cases literal.

Stop lie-ing about futurists and just stick to proving your view.

I haven't mentioned preterists anywhere in my arguments in rebutting your eshatolgoy - so there is no need for you to go down that road

BABerean2 · Feb 2, 2015

Douggg said:
BABerean2 said:

It says in Daniel 12:4
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

That does not fit your eschatology, BABerean2.

It says in Matthew 24
Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

That does not fit your eschatology, BABerean2. Luke 21 doesn't contain any statements regarding the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Historically, in 70 AD there was not anything "setup" in the holy place
which the holy place is inside of the sanctuary building. The brazen altar is outside in the courtyard. So history doesn't support your eschatology, either.

You don't use Daniel 12:4 anywhere to support your eschatology because your eschatology is wrong. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

No-one fled into the mountains because of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Them who did flee, upon heeding Jesus's words was based upon seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies in Luke 21.

You are constructing a "lie" against futurists. All futurists claim that the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD is fulfillment of Luke 21:20 and Matthew 23:37-38, and what is written in Daniel 9:26 regarding the destruction of the sanctuary and city. So that part of your statement is a "lie".

It is true that futurists go with what the bible says regarding the abomination of desolation, which will take place when Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. ....as being end times. Not a past event.

Another lie against futurists. Futurists interpret scripture as being in some cases metaphoric and in some cases literal.

Stop lie-ing about futurists and just stick to proving your view.

I haven't mentioned preterists anywhere in my arguments in rebutting your eshatolgoy - so there is no need for you to go down that road

Click to expand...

Full-Preterism and Full-Futurism are both clearly wrong because they ignore the fact that the disciples asked Christ 2 questions in the Olivet Discourse.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

1. When will these things be?
(destruction of the temple)

The answer is found in the first half of Matthew chapter 24.

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?

The answer is found in the second half of Matthew chapter 24.

Full-Futurists ignore the first question and Full-Preterists ignore the second question.

Therefore, neither of these two positions can ever arrive at the correct interpretation of the text because they must force the text to fit their view of eschatology.

I will avoid the word "lie", because it is not helpful in this discussion.
When we force the text to fit our eschatology we are deceiving ourselves.

If we use your methodology, since Daniel 12:4 does not contain the word "abomination" or "desolation" we can rip it from it's place in the text and make it go where we want it, in order to fit our eschatology.

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Who will be in the land during Daniel's seventieth week?

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Partial Preterist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

My dog Micah in the pic

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Junior Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Partial Preterist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Newbie

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

My dog Micah in the pic

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Newbie

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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