Attack on Israelis in Jerusalem
- Thread starter TG123
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It has to do with not alienating those who historically been among Israel's greatest supporters. Maybe the evangelical right can replace them in their unholy alliance, but that's pushing it.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
There weren't any Arabs known as Palestinians and it certainly wasn't their land...most were indeed foreigners from surrounding nations and even acknowledge the fact quite openly.
Not quite sure on this story...I have heard it bandied about from time to time, and it is possible Mossad shot themselves in the foot over this...but from my view-point the jury's out at the moment.
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Nonsense. Most Palestinians are descendants from people who have always lived in that region. This has been clearly established by DNA evidence compiled by the Israelis themselves! The Palestinians changed from speaking Aramaic to speaking Arabic after the Islamic invasions but that doesn't change who they were. Whether and when the term "Palestinian" began to be used is quite irrelevant.
Oh they did, they did.
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I agree. I think they can come back and some do, but most of the time within a few generations they have a few traces of Jewish identify but not enough to keep it alive. The type of people who will get together to celebrate Passover with a big ham.
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Hey, I used to work as a nanny to a Conservative Jewish family. When their daughter graduated from Hebrew kindergarten we went out to eat and she order a BLT!
They didn't keep any pork in the house, however.
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Just my opinion, but I find it somewhat disingenuous for people to be proud of their heritage and then go off and do things that go against what kept the people as distinct for all those years.
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I'm not sure refraining from pork made them all that distinct. Virtually all herding peoples in that part of the world had an aversion to pork which was considered a filthy animal eaten only by farmers.
Pigs pretty much domesticated themselves. They hung around human habitations in order to eat their waste.
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Jewish law kept us distinct. The whole kit and caboodle. Pigs being domesticated or not has nothing to do with it.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Originally Posted by Zeek...
So despite the historical fact that the vast majority of people now termed Palestinians came from other regions of the Middle East and only immigrated to Palestine in the 19th century and especially in the first half of the 20th century...you're telling me that Israelis have come up with a DNA test that by passes historical fact. Now I know the Israelis are great innovators and lead the world in many fields, but this is truly amazing.
So despite the historical fact that the vast majority of people now termed Palestinians came from other regions of the Middle East and only immigrated to Palestine in the 19th century and especially in the first half of the 20th century...you're telling me that Israelis have come up with a DNA test that by passes historical fact. Now I know the Israelis are great innovators and lead the world in many fields, but this is truly amazing.
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What I'm telling you is that you've been fed a pack of lies. I'll be happy to show you the DNA study if you have any interest in the truth.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
I have looked at a number of studies that claim various things about the so-called Palestinian Arabs, including genetics...I have only found this:-
Among some of the Arabs in Judea and Samaria there is a common ancestry with some of their Jewish neighbours...but it is a huge leap to specify that this proves they have legitimate claims on historic Israel....there never was anything remotely like a Palestinian culture, and the vast majority are seen to be Arabs and Moslems...whereas the Jews have a traceable culture and history that spans over 3,400 years, confirmed through archaeology, sciences and their own Holy Book.
However if you want me to review your claims I will do so....despite that fact that you mistakenly think I have been fed a pack of lies.
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What does culture, religion, or ethnicity have to do with the right of a people to remain where they and their ancestors have always lived?
In any case, here is an article discussing the DNA studies:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
If you understood the complications involved in establishing whether a group was indigenous to an area, you would understand that the factors I mentioned are generally part of that consideration.
I read the article which I found unconvincing and inconclusive, and had more to do with an individuals pet theory on establishing peace in the Middle-East, than any serious in depth study.
Have a glance at this Changing the Historical Narrative: Saeb Erekat?s New Spin which gives a better perspective.
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Looks, like a red herring to me. I point out DNA studies conducted by Israeli scientists and you respond by pointing out some Palestinian who supposedly is making spurious claims. How exactly does this refute the Israeli studies?
You do realize that most Palestinians are not Bedouins?
Personally I think Palestinians are related to Canaanites only to the same extent that the Hebrew people are Canaanites. I suspect most of them descend from Samaritans who adopted Christianity and later Islam. Did they intermarry with Arabs from the Peninsula? I'm sure they did, but there is no record of a Syrian "diaspora" that would make us think the local population was displaced. Just where do you think they went?
In any case, I find arguments like those made by your 'scholars' that somehow Palestinians aren't entitled to their country because they never had a nation-state. That was the same kind of racist arguments made by Sepulveda against Bartholomew de las Casas to justify the Spanish conquest and oppression of the Native Americans.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
The very link you sent me concluded it was meaningless as the problem was religious not genetic.
Yes, and do you realize the people who now call themselves Palestinians are mostly Arabs pure and simple.
Arabs surged into Palestine during the latter part of the 19th Century and well into the 20th Century...they did not head for the vast area of Southern Syria, nor the land East of the Jordan...they came to where the Jews returning in what is now Israel, and centered their communities around the Jewish communities because wages were double or more what they could earn where they originally came from. They soon out-numbered what might be deemed non-Jewish indigenous groups that were a mix of Moslems, Christians and others, but these too were largely Arab.
The idea that the Palestinians are a recognizable ethnic group and can be traced waaay back...is merely wishful thinking and part of revisionist history that makes the rounds ceaselessly.
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Except Palestinian Christians are as adamantly anti-zionist as are Muslims. This is not about religion or genetics it is about a people's right to their home.
If by that you mean they speak Arabic, of course. But how does that deprive them of their right to their homeland?
So you have asserted without proving.
Except that is not what happened. The Jews who immigrated during the 19th century mostly settled in Jerusalem. That immigration was welcomed by the Ottomans and not a problem for the Palestinians. Problems started mostly in the 20th century precisely because the Jews were then buying up farmland and evicting the tenants. If they had kept the Palestinians on as tenants there would not have been a problem, but the Zionist aim was to form separate Jewish communities and the Palestinians tenants were not wanted. This flew in the face of traditional land tenure wherein it was the tenant, not the landlord who had primary rights to live on the land. It was the landlord's right to collect revenue from it. Read: Gershon Shafir’s *Land, Labor and the Origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.*
Once again, it makes no difference whether they are a 'recognizable ethnic group.' They are a people who lived in a land that was taken from them.
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Sounds like two philosophies of land ownership conflicted with each other there.
Not that any of this matters and the fact that the past is looked upon so much is actually a big problem. We need to go forward not keep staring backwards. Peace needs to be reached based upon the situation as it is.
Not that any of this matters and the fact that the past is looked upon so much is actually a big problem. We need to go forward not keep staring backwards. Peace needs to be reached based upon the situation as it is.
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Exactly. As I pointed out before the European Jewry and the British who came to rule Palestine brought with them a very Western conception of land ownership. However, I should add that European conceptions of land ownership had started being imposed by the Ottomans even before the British Mandate and Zionisn. A lot of Palestinians ended up losing their land because they couldn't produce clear titles to land their family had held for centuries. All too often deceitful middlemen often knowingly sold land with occupants to Jewish buyers who were unfamiliar with the territory, local customs, and the language.
Bottom line: What is complicated is that when Jews say "we bought the land fair and square" they are telling the truth. And when the Palestinian says, "They stole our land" they too are telling the truth. However, this applies only to events which occurred prior to 1947. Palestinians who fled the country in 1948 lost their land, whether they were tenants or landlords.
What I find objectionable is the notion that people somehow don't have rights if they don't have a clearly identifiable ethnicity or form a specific nation-state. That is the same kind of imperialistic nonsense that justified the conquest of the Americas, the scramble for Africa, etc. If Zionists want to put themselves in the same boat as other European imperialists, they are free to do so, but in my mind that just makes Zionism the same kind of racist, nationalist ideology which gives the West a deservedly bad name.
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As I said, we need to start taking the situation as it is right now and create peace. Reasonable concessions are required from both sides. The best way to tell is that in a good negotiation neither side will be completely happy. I'd love to see Jerusalem as some kind of neutral city under neither control due to it's cultural and religious significance but I don't think that would happen.
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