God's plan for the Jews and the Land.

All the points by BABarean are correct.

In addition, if you look at the way the Isaiah quote is used, Paul is referring to it as fulfilled in his time. The Israel it is referring to is not the nation as they knew it, and this concept is not from Paul either, but is in Isaiah and other prophets. So is the idea that non-Jews would be "in" this other Israel.

The greatest misunderstanding I can see in Job8 is the term "saved." As Job8 says above, he believes 'saved' in Rom 11 is the same as 'saved' from a destructive event for Israel alone. But this is a mess, hermeneutically. If you back up in Romans, you won't find anything about saving Israel from a destructive event. For that matter, you will find some grief that most of Israel will be destroyed in a horrible event--the DofJ.

The 'saved' of Rom 11 is to have sins taken away--and that means its debt more than its actual ongoing existence (that is an additional discussion to take up; it affects how we read Dan 9's list of Messiah accomplishments, for ex.). How do we know this? By not leaving the context as futurist D'ism does. If we stay there in Rom 11 and Isaiah, we won't make Job8's conclusion. Paul meant it in the fulfilled sense, even for him in his day, and meant justification by Christ from our sins.

There is no plan for Jews or the land. It is pure error to think so.

In John 4:19-26, Jesus told "the woman at the well this:
19 The woman *said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”
21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”
26 Jesus *said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

In this passage, Jesus clearly tells this Samaritan woman, that it's not about Jerusalem OR mountains, OR anything else earthly. It's about worshiping God!

Paul tells us its about the JERUSALEM ABOVE...Hebrews tells us we are citizens of THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM. Yet so many buy into the thinking Jerusalem and Israel are the focus of the end...NOT SO!!!

PhillipLaSpino said:

Daniel, you wrote, "The whole premise of this is flawed. Anyone who understands their Bibles understands that "God being finished with the Jews," doesn't mean he is through with saving Jewish souls."

Phil replies, "Thanks for your link, but I trust my own research and understanding on the subject. You begin your comments with this negative tone and comment. If you disagree, would you not be better served by asking questions as in "How did you come to these conclusions" or something like that.

Click to expand...

Who started this thread with a negative tone?

PhillipLaSpino said:

There are those who claim the Lord is finished with the Jews and the land, and that their particular church now represents literal Israel, calling themself "Spiritual Israel."

Click to expand...

You built yourself a nice little straw man that a child could knock over. You started the whole thread negatively with a false premise not even bothering to acknowledge the reams of scripture most people who would dispute you identify with and understand quite accurately. Then you complain when someone calls you on it and accuse them of dong exactly what you just did?

PhillipLaSpino said:

First of all, I do understand that the Lord came to save all, both Jew and Gentile, "No problem with that." Obviously you are of the school of teaching that claims the church is Spiritual Israel, and has taken all of the promises God made to the Jews for yourself, is that correct? And with that line of thinking under your belt, you also don't believe in a catching away of the body of Christ before the tribulation of 7 years begins, is that correct? And also the 70 weeks of Daniel are concluded, is that correct, -- yes or no will do.

Click to expand...

No I am not of the "school that claims" the "church" is "spiritual" Israel. I am of a school that boldly asserts the believer , Jew and Gentile is the only thing God ever had in mind when he made the promise: Your descendants will be as the stars in heaven in multitude or as the sand by the sea shore. I am of the school that the Jewish believers of both Old and New Testaments are the called out as well as the gentile believers. I am of the school that boldly declares ALL the promises of God in Christ Jesus are Yes and amen! I am also of the school that say people like you that are taking the end times scriptures that prophesied of the end of the Old covenant age 70 AD and the end times of Age of the Gentiles 1453 AD; that place them in this age that they are prophesying falsehoods regarding the future. Falsehoods that have the same effects on Gods people as false prophecy does.


As far as the land is and modern Israel is concerned. No halfway decent nation gets founded without God being involved in one way or another. Especially modern Israel who Satan has so much animosity towards for bringing the Word of God into the world so that the nations might be saved. That being said the real manifestation of a prophecy fulfilled in its founding is in Romans 11. That when the fullness of the Gentiles come in. Meaning when enough Gentiles get saved and their influence is such that they found and maintain nations on Biblical principle. At that time the physical descendants of Abraham, believers or not will be shown mercy just as the Gentiles were shown mercy before hand. What better manifestation of mercy could be found than allowing them to have their own nation to defend themselves against Satan's minions? Not to speak of the massive evangelistic efforts made towards them?

You on the other hand prophecy the doom spoken towards ancient Israel upon modern Israel. As I stated in this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7848554-post66531076/#post66531076

This is something I am sure that those who accept pop culture end times teachings as gospel truth have never noticed. That this prophecy below directly proceeds Matt. 24. Jesus speaks this forth, walks out of the temple and it is at that point his disciples point out the beauty buildings and he re-launches the exact same prophecy with allot more detail.
Matt. 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Why you be witnesses to yourselves, that you are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill you up then the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell? 34 Why, behold, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you whip in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, All these things shall come on this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I say to you, You shall not see me from now on, till you shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Matt.24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, See you not all these things? truly I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone on another, that shall not be thrown down....
My point is that secularist are always going about trying to divide and conquer by saying the Christians are prophesying the destruction of modern Israel. How on earth could Christians they be thought of as friends of modern Israel when they say such things? You know what? They are exactly and embarrassingly right. This prophecy which is part of Matthew 24 and says the same thing as Matthew 24, just directed to a different audience. 23:36 Truly I say to you, All these things shall come on this generation. 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. This is speaking to ancient Israel and not modern Israel. Modern Israel is not guilty of the blood of the prophets or the apostles, ancient Israel was. Modern Israel will not be punished, judged or destroyed for the blood of the saints but ancient Israel was. Yet horrifically 24\7 on the airwaves of the nation , Christians unwittingly declare that it is when they say Matthew 24 applies to modern Israel. "Oh" some clever person says. " It isn't talking about punishing modern Israel but the world." Don't be so inconsistent and dishonest, you just got busted. Modern Israel is the location you are placing this prophecy. You just aren't as thoughtful as you think you are and didn't notice Matthew 23:29-39
Before any of you launch off in a defense of yourselves, (not a defense of scripture but yourselves and your own integrity.) Lets not forget the date the scripture places on this prophecy about the end of the first covenant age when God stopped using the Jewish nation, both believers and unbelievers to herald the Gospel and now uses only believers to do so, both Jew and Gentile. Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troubled times. 26. And after sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come and shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end of it shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. 27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This says nothing about a "second" coming. The Bible does not use the phrase " the second coming" anywhere. This simply says when the messiah comes and dies on that cross for the sins of the world the city and sanctuary will be destroyed, Jesus says exactly the same thing over and over in the NT including in regards to the entire Matthew 24 prophecy. 23:36 Truly I say to you, All these things shall come on this generation. 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew16: 28. Truly I say to you, There are some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 25: 64. Jesus says to him, You have said: nevertheless I say to you, After this you will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark: 9: 1. And he said to them, Truly I say to you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 13:26. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: 29. So you, in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is close, even at the doors. 30. Truly I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things are done. Mark 14:61 ...Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62. And Jesus said, I am: and you will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven Luke 9: 27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 21:31 So likewise you, when you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of God is near at hand. 32 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
To stop hallucinations about what I believe concerning the coming of the Lord you can go to this article I wrote on it.
The Coming (or Day) of the Lord
After reading this some may wonder what I think about modern Israel. I posted this comment now in a couple of threads:
It is kind of difficult to know the very tiny tiny tiny number of prophecies in the OT that are referring to the modern nation of Israel. The reason for this is that all the major prophecies are referring to the people of faith of all nations who in fact are the true children of Abraham. ( Gal. 3: 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.) So, I know there are, or at least must be a few prophecies regarding the modern nation of Israel but I don't know which ones they are because most of them, no matter what the insistence of dispensationilists, are referring to the people of faith through Christ both Jew and Gentile. The couple of dozen OT chapters about the New Jerusalem are a perfect example of this.
Here however is the main prophecy that the founding of the modern nation of Israel is at least a partial fulfillment of. It is from Paul and my guess is he got it from the OT. I am going to interpret it also and some will freak.
Romans 13: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved......(Verse 26 refers to those of faith of all nations in case anyone is wondering- Chapt. 6:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed) Back to chapter 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Now here is the interpretation. The fullness of the Gentiles coming in is referring to the time when enough Gentiles get saved and through their influence nations get founded on Biblical principle. (Like the USA) This according to Bible prophecy would not start happening till after the fall of the Roman Empire in 1453 AD. When peoples sufficiently come under the influence of Biblical principle, they would begin to show mercy to the physical descendants of Abraham. Modern Israel is a manifestation of that. What better way to show mercy to a demonically persecuted people than by supporting them having their own nation and being able to defend themselves against Satan's genocidal minions. Beyond this we are also seeing a great outreach to the nation with the Gospel. Many millions will be saved I think.

I on the other hand hope and pray that the nation of modern Israel continue on fro many many centuries to come. I have an idea. since you "trust" your own studies. Why don't you try studying your opponents weaknesses before you tangle with them.
You'll be quite surprised what you find out in that article I linked if you didn't consider yourself so brilliant. Bible Symbolism in Genesis

Yes Ebed, the 'hour now is, when we worship the Lord in spirit and truth'.
But you just can't see the many prophesies that tell of His righteous people possessing the Holy Land and Jesus Himself will reign in Jerusalem. After all that has happened and all that will happen, this will be the great fulfilment of God's plan for humankind.
In John 4:21 what Jesus said is now true. He isn't worshipped in Jerusalem, basically Israel is a atheist State. Although there is a remnant there who will be saved. Isa 6:13
But He is worshipped around the world, by Christians everywhere.
Jeremiah 33:6-14 says: the Holy Land will become desolate and inhabited by neither man or beast. [this is NOT a fulfilled prophecy, but it will be after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath by fire] THEN the Lord will bring health and cure and will reveal to them peace and abundance.Psalm 37:29, Isaiah 32:15-20, Amos 9:8b-15, Romans 8:18

keras said:

Yes Ebed, the 'hour now is, when we worship the Lord in spirit and truth'.

Click to expand...

That right!

keras said:

But you just can't see the many prophesies that tell of His righteous people possessing the Holy Land and Jesus Himself will reign in Jerusalem. After all that has happened and all that will happen, this will be the great fulfilment of God's plan for humankind.

Click to expand...

No Kers. It's you who can't see...and that is because you don't acknowledge the NT apostles and prophets as they interpret the OT prophets for you!

Paul clearly tells you in Ephesians 3:1-10 that these things were being revealed to him, and they HAD NOT been revealed to the prophets before him. For the sake of brevity, I post verses 4-7:
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow membersof the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
This is what you ignore Keras. Paul is telling you the revelation he is given interprets the prophets as when he says "they are NOT ALL ISRAEL who are descended from Israel".

How do you read that with Paul also quoting Hosea and Isaiah to get you to understand?

How do you do that with Paul telling you the descendants of Abraham are ALL who have the faith of Abraham? It boggles the mind Keras!

Follow that up with Paul in Epesians 2:11-22!

keras said:

In John 4:21 what Jesus said is now true. He isn't worshipped in Jerusalem, basically Israel is a atheist State. Although there is a remnant there who will be saved. Isa 6:13

Click to expand...

Indeed! A remnant of fleshly Israel...why do you think Paul differentiated between the flesh and the Spirit saying "ISRAEL ACCORDING TO THE FLESH" in Romans 9:3????

keras said:

But He is worshipped around the world, by Christians everywhere.
Jeremiah 33:6-14 says: the Holy Land will become desolate and inhabited by neither man or beast. [this is NOT a fulfilled prophecy, but it will be after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath by fire] THEN the Lord will bring health and cure and will reveal to them peace and abundance.Psalm 37:29, Isaiah 32:15-20, Amos 9:8b-15, Romans 8:18

Click to expand...

You ran to Jeremiah 33 where he is speaking to JUDAH! He's not speaking to this day. Until you realize that Keras, you will continue in error. Judah isn't even in captivity yet. How is it you can't read and understand that?

In Jeremiah 34, Jeremiah prophesies to Zedekiah that Babylon will take him and Judah captive, destroying the temple! You simply disregard that. How is that Keras

It's because you follow an eschatology according to YOUR thinking and NOT what the scripture says!

Keras,
you continue to confuse what is for all those who believe with things you think are just for Israel. Why do you put Rom 8:18 as just for Israel? Why doesn't the Jer 33 passage have its own glorious resolution? Oh, it does: the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS and his new covenant which is already here.

More broadly, what is the "need" to have a separate set of things happen in Israel that look like, or parallel, the final day of God's wrath--when the whole emphasis of that day is on "all mankind" anyway? It doesn't accomplish anything. It doesn't prove anything. Are you looking for "proof" the way BW used to?

Rather than hitting my head against the brickwall of IP and Ebed, I post the Words of the Lord:
Jeremiah 11:6-8 The Lord said: Proclaim the terms of the Covenant to Judah. I gave solemn warning to your forefathers, obey Me – I told them. But they did not obey, so I brought upon them all the penalties that I had warned about.
Both Israel and Judah were exiled from the Land, as punishment for their sins. Jeremiah 2:1-13
Jeremiah 11:9-14 The Lord says: Now, the inhabitants of Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem conspire against Me, both the House of Israel and the House of Judah have gone back to the sins of their forefathers. Therefore, I am about to bring upon them a disaster from which they cannot escape. They may cry to Me for help, but I will not listen. Do not pray for these people, for I will not listen to them when they call to Me in the hour of their disaster.
Those Jews in Israel and the rest of the Israelites scattered around the world, who refuse to acknowledge and obey the Lord, will not be protected in “the hour of disaster”.

Jeremiah 11:15-17 What right have My people to be in My holy place, with their sinful ways? Can any sacrifice or offering atone for your evil ways and ward off the disaster that threatens you? Now, you will feel sharp anguish, once you were His holy people, now, with the roar of a mighty storm, He will burn up and consume you. The Lord, who had planted you has decreed disaster for both the House of Israel and the House of Judah because of their evil ways, provoking His anger.
‘burn up and consume’ - The coming fire judgement, prophesied over 70 times. Isa 30:26

Jeremiah 12:14 These are the words of the Lord about all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land which I allotted to My people Israel, as their holding: I shall uproot them from their places and I shall uproot the House of Judah from among them.
Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish you as your deeds deserve, I shall kindle a fire in your Land, it will devour everything around it.
Jeremiah 25:30-33 The Lord roars from on high, He thunders from His dwelling place, He shouts against all the inhabitants of the Land. The great noise reaches the ends of the earth, the Lord brings a charge against all mankind and has handed the wicked over to the sword. Ruin spreads from nation to nation from a worldwide mighty tempest and those slain on that day will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other, they will be as dung spread over the ground. Psalm 18:7-15, Isaiah 66: 15-17, Zeph. 3:8
Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet the horde of your enemies will crumble into dust. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come from the Lord with thunder, earthquake and a flame of devouring fire. Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

This terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, will bring severe judgement to all the inhabitants of the Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5. The coronal mass ejection that the Lord will use on that Day will affect the whole world, and then Jeremiah 30,31 and Ezekiel 36, tell us how His righteous people will gather in all the Holy Land, to be His people and the Lord, their God.

God is not finished with saving anybody.....Period!!!!!!!!!The Jew's or anyone else are not special.............All have a choice

Interplanner said:

Nothing in the context of Rom 11 supports that Job8...Be careful of reading Rom 11:26 as a sound-byte in favor of something in our future.

Click to expand...

Romans 11:26 sums up a multitude of OT prophecies. It is up to you and each one who does not accept God's future plan for the nation of Israel to (1) study those prophecies in depth, (2) tie them into the NT, and (3) make a coherent whole out of all of God's Word. It appears that you have not done so, therefore you are not in a position to dismiss Rom 11:26 and its application to Israel in the future.

The view you have only has one other sound-byte to stand on: 'you will not see me again until you say 'blessed is he...' Again, there are many details about this that show it is not a prediction as such and does not solidify that kind of showing or ascension to kingship that you are thinking.

Click to expand...

Now you have moved from denying what God says about Israel, to denying that the Lord Jesus Christ literally meant exactly what He stated here. That is a pretty sad state of affairs. And calling Scripture "sound bites" is even sadder.

The reason you dismiss it is obvious. In your estimation, it is impossible for God to fulfil His promises to Israel because He has brought the Church into existence. As far as I am concerned (and as far as any biblicist is concered) "WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" (Mt 19:26).

And bringing Dispensationalism and the names of Darby, Scofield, and Larkin (as another poster has done) is simply creating strawmen. No need to waste time addressing this.

Even if none of these men had ever existed, we would still have the Word of God and the words of the apostles and Christ (Acts 1:6,7): "When they therfore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, WILT THOU AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL? And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the TIMES OR THE SEASONS, which the Father hath put in His own power".
1.There was a full expectation among the apostles that the kingdom of Israel would be redeemed and restored.
2.The apostles expectation was that it would happen immediately.
3.The Lord did not deny the truth of their expectation, nor did He mock it.
4.The Lord instead indicated that there would be a time and a season when Israel would be restored as a kingdom under Christ.

Job8 said:

Romans 11:26 sums up a multitude of OT prophecies. It is up to you and each one who does not accept God's future plan for the nation of Israel to (1) study those prophecies in depth, (2) tie them into the NT, and (3) make a coherent whole out of all of God's Word. It appears that you have not done so, therefore you are not in a position to dismiss Rom 11:26 and its application to Israel in the future.

Click to expand...

It must be accepted on the terms of what it says though. It clearly states Jews and Gentiles are ONE olive tree, so it is those who think as you do that have not done so. Paul makes it VERY CLEAR in Romans 11;5, 6 that only a REMNANT of Jews will be saved and that is by God's grace:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Job8 said:

Now you have moved from denying what God says about Israel, to denying that the Lord Jesus Christ literally meant exactly what He stated here. That is a pretty sad state of affairs. And calling Scripture "sound bites" is even sadder.

Click to expand...

No. It is you who deny that. Try reading the TOTALITY of scripture on the matter. Romans 4 is a great place to start, because Paul clearly tells you there that ALL who have the faith of Abraham are his descendants. How does that work?

Job8 said:

The reason you dismiss it is obvious. In your estimation, it is impossible for God to fulfil His promises to Israel because He has brought the Church into existence. As far as I am concerned (and as far as any biblicist is concered) "WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" (Mt 19:26).

Click to expand...

Can you show promises that are not fulfilled? Paul clearly teaches they have been. Romans 4:13:
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 15:8:
For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

One can read the scriptures, OR one can read the scripture thorugh that which they have been taught.

Job8 said:

And bringing Dispensationalism and the names of Darby, Scofield, and Larkin (as another poster has done) is simply creating strawmen. No need to waste time addressing this.

Click to expand...

Why not? Are they not the progenitors of that line of theology? Facts are NOT straw men, they are FACTS!

Job8 said:

Even if none of these men had ever existed, we would still have the Word of God and the words of the apostles and Christ (Acts 1:6,7): "When they therfore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, WILT THOU AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL? And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the TIMES OR THE SEASONS, which the Father hath put in His own power".
1.There was a full expectation among the apostles that the kingdom of Israel would be redeemed and restored.
2.The apostles expectation was that it would happen immediately.
3.The Lord did not deny the truth of their expectation, nor did He mock it.
4.The Lord instead indicated that there would be a time and a season when Israel would be restored as a kingdom under Christ.

Click to expand...

Did you go on to read Jesus answer? This is what he said...Acts 1:7, 8:
7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Where did Jesus say He would restore Israel? Point that out?

Even more, could you please show one of the apostles writing that God would restore the kingdom to Israel? Just one.

The NT teaches the kingdom of God is the church, and it is made up of ALL who come to Christ. As Pauls says "for there is NO difference". It is Paul who says this in Galatians 6:14-16
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

You do realize Paul saying "circumcision" is Jews, and saying "uncircumcision" is Gentiles. So if both aren't ANYTHING...CHRIST IS EVERYTHING! It ENDS with Christ!



Why are you making a difference?

ebedmelech said:

It must be accepted on the terms of what it says though. It clearly states Jews and Gentiles are ONE olive tree, so it is those who think as you do that have not done so. Paul makes it VERY CLEAR in Romans 11;5, 6 that only a REMNANT of Jews will be saved and that is by God's grace:

Click to expand...

And after Paul talks about the olive tree, here is what he says (which you should have quoted) from verses 25-28:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: As it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [the Messiah], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [Israel]". Speaks for itself.

Paul clearly tells you there that ALL who have the faith of Abraham are his descendants. How does that work?

Click to expand...

How it works is simple:
1. Every person since Abel has been justified by faith.
2. Abraham was justified by faith.
3. The Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) has been justified by faith.
4. Israel at the coming of the "Deliverer" (Christ) will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be justified by faith.

Can you show promises that are not fulfilled?

Click to expand...

Dozens. But let's just take one (Genesis 15:18) to convince you that there are dozens more: "In the same day the LORD made a COVENANT with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given THIS LAND, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates".

Since the home of the Church is the New Jerusalem, this "seed" of Abraham is Israel, and the land that God has promised them will occupy all the territory between the Nile (the river of Egypt) and the Euphrates (the river of Iraq). That is probably 10 times the land currently occupied by Israel. Therefore this promise remains unfulfilled. Will you believe God, or continue to insist that this is not true?

Did you go on to read Jesus answer?

Click to expand...

Absolutely. God would raise up His Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) before He would resume His dealings with Israel. The Church did not nullify Israel.

Where did Jesus say He would restore Israel? Point that out?

Click to expand...

Many places. Read the OT. Jesus is Yahweh, and Yahweh said He would restore Israel (Ezek 37:21-28). But Christ even revealed that in the NT (Mt 19:28): "And JESUS said unto them, Verily, I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, IN THE REGENERATION, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve throne, JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL".
That speaks for itself, and the regeneration is called the "times of restitution" in Acts 3:20,21, where Peter is speaking to the Jews:
"And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began". That regeneration and restitution includes the redemption and restoration of Israel as noted in Ezekiel 37.

Even more, could you please show one of the apostles writing that God would restore the kingdom to Israel? Just one.

Click to expand...

Already done. See Romans 11:25,26.

Why are you making a difference?

Click to expand...

Because God makes that difference. I have already pointed out that the Church -- Jew and Gentile in one Body, is one aspect of God's plan. Within the Church neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails.
What is taught in the epistles is to the Church. What is taught in the OT prophecies is to future Israel. There is no conflict whatsoever. God has a plan for the Church (New Jerusalem) and for Israel (the Land of Promise).

Job8 said:

Romans 11:26 sums up a multitude of OT prophecies. It is up to you and each one who does not accept God's future plan for the nation of Israel to (1) study those prophecies in depth, (2) tie them into the NT, and (3) make a coherent whole out of all of God's Word. It appears that you have not done so, therefore you are not in a position to dismiss Rom 11:26 and its application to Israel in the future.


Now you have moved from denying what God says about Israel, to denying that the Lord Jesus Christ literally meant exactly what He stated here. That is a pretty sad state of affairs. And calling Scripture "sound bites" is even sadder.

The reason you dismiss it is obvious. In your estimation, it is impossible for God to fulfil His promises to Israel because He has brought the Church into existence. As far as I am concerned (and as far as any biblicist is concered) "WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" (Mt 19:26).

And bringing Dispensationalism and the names of Darby, Scofield, and Larkin (as another poster has done) is simply creating strawmen. No need to waste time addressing this.

Even if none of these men had ever existed, we would still have the Word of God and the words of the apostles and Christ (Acts 1:6,7): "When they therfore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, WILT THOU AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL? And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the TIMES OR THE SEASONS, which the Father hath put in His own power".
1.There was a full expectation among the apostles that the kingdom of Israel would be redeemed and restored.
2.The apostles expectation was that it would happen immediately.
3.The Lord did not deny the truth of their expectation, nor did He mock it.
4.The Lord instead indicated that there would be a time and a season when Israel would be restored as a kingdom under Christ.

Click to expand...

Here is the original source of your doctrine. Notice the word "so" of Romans 11:26 has been changed to "then" on page 349 of Lacunza's book.

.............................................................................

Suggests all Jews will be saved in the end-time

“Jerusalem, saith Christ, shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, until the end of the world, or some short while before. When? When Antichrist, king and Messiah of the Jews, and universal monarch of the whole world, shall build anew that city, and plant in it the court of his universal empire. The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah. Oh that it were possible entirely to close this door or aperture, and take away for ever this ordinary escape! What good fruits might not thence result to the true and plain understanding of so many and such weighty prophecies.” (Lacunza page 349)

……………………………….............................................

All underlining has been added. Bold type has been added in some selections.
Comments in Blue are mine. All quotes are from the online 2000 edition of book “Coming of Messiah…” by Manuel Lacunza. The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty by Manuel Lacunza

The book starts with deception by hiding the true identity of the author. It was written by a Jesuit priest (Lacunza) not a converted Jew (Ben-Ezra).

(Title Page)

………………………………...................................................
Restoration of National Israel

“The restoration of the Jewish nation, to be again the Church of God, and their reestablishment in their own land, to be the head of nations…” (Irving page 9)

………………………………..................................................
Irving was teaching the new doctrine before 1827.

“I have begun the preliminary discourse by giving an exposition of the doctrine which I have been teaching;…” (Irving page 10)

………………………………...................................................
Comments show Irving’s value of Lacunza’s book

“About three or four years ago, a clergyman of the church of England, whose name, if I might mention it, would prove that he was worthy to be employed by God in this ministry and whose labours for the consolation temporal and spiritual of suffering Spaniards and suffering Spain, perhaps commended him to God as worthy to bring to Britain this Spanish prize, more precious than any galleon which was ever carried into a British port; …” (Irving pages 11,12)

“So that it appeared that the great work among the divines on the continent, written by one Lacunza a Jesuit, was the same work which was laid upon my table without any information concerning it, except that it was written by Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra; but of which God had given me the discernment to perceive that it was the master work of one of his most gifted servants.”
(Irving page 14)

“Perceiving well that my worthy master Ben-Ezra had in his own right nothing to expect but the most vehement abuse and ridicule of his opinions, and, in my company, still more I weighed well how I might obtain for him a fair hearing from the Church which has become review-ridden to a most alarming degree: and, having well meditated this matter and besought the guidance of the Lord, I was directed to send a goodly portion of the work, when printed, to the ministers and members of the Church of Christ, who should seem to me the most honourable, simple-minded, and single-eyed before the Lord; in order that the blasphemers of fair and honest truth might be prevented from prejudicing the easy, drowsy, luke-warm Church against the best gift which hath been offered to her in these latter times.” (Irving page 15)

……………………………….....................................
States Christ did not fulfill all of the promise

“For if they spiritualized away a part, I should insist upon spiritualizing away the other part; in which case we would have and could have no real Messiah: and if they insist for the literal interpretation of a part, I would insist for the literal interpretation of the other part, which their Messiah hath not fulfilled, and which they do not expect him to fulfil; and in either case I would defeat them. I say this unnatural position of looking backward has deprived the church of the use even of those prophecies which have received a partial fulfilment, but still look forward to a perfect accomplishment; while of by far the greatest part of the prophecy it hath deprived her of the use and service altogether, and made them not only sealed and unprofitable, but really injurious and pernicious to the faith of her own children. “ (Irving page 52)

………………………………............................................
Irving uses “Dispensational” terminology.

“Of all these views Concerning the prophetic office of Christ and the prophetic character of his word, I regard his discourse to Nicodemus to be a most remarkable confirmation, wherein he not only showeth the instance of the cross under the emblem of the brazen serpent, and the work of the Spirit under the water-purifications of the law, but asserteth generally that the new birth of the Spirit and the whole spiritual life thence flowing, and our present spiritual dispensation and church, are but a part of the earthly things. The honest yet blinded Israelite came to inquire of our Lord concerning his glorious kingdom, who postponed the subject for one more immediate and more important, opening to him the spiritual meaning and spiritual promise of the earthly dispensation, which had begun with Moses, and was now arrived at the second stage of its growth, for which the word of the prophets and the dispensations of divine providence had been diligently preparing the way; against which the spiritual pride and carnal security of the Jewish rulers had been as diligently blocking up the way: wherefore it came not unto them, but passed by on the other side, and went unto the Gentiles, leaving them outcast of heaven and earth. By this high authority we are informed that our present spiritual dispensation which is wont to be interpreted as complete in itself, without any bud or promise of another, is as much preparatory to another, as was the Mosaic, which the Jews also thought perfect in itself: or rather, to speak more exactly, the dispensation from Abraham to the present time is one dispensation, which is incomplete and inexplicable but by the belief of another dispensation of glory about to follow. Our Lord here expressly declareth to Nicodemus, that all which he taught him, concerning the regeneration of the Spirit, and his own lifting up, and the light unto the Gentiles, was a part of the earthly things, and no part of the heavenly things; or in other words, that the spiritual dispensation under which we live is but the unfolding and completing of the ritual and prophetic dispensation, and can no more be separated from it, than the exposition can be separated from the text, or the resolution from the perplexed riddle.
It is manifest from our Lord’s discourse, that the spiritual dispensation to which he introduced the Jewish ruler, pertaining to the earthly things which were to be seen and known at that time in the Jewish dispensation, as the living countenance and form are to be seen through the veil which covers them. For there can be no doubt that Moses was but Christ under the veil, and the law was but the holiness of the Spirit written upon stones. The veil was taken off the face of Moses by the Prophet like unto Moses, and the gospel was discovered to be beneath it. By the coming of the Spirit the tables of stone were broken, and the writing was transferred to the fleshly tables of the heart. Christ’s incarnation completed the prophetic part of the dispensation, and sealed up the vision and the prophecy; his life fulfilled the law; and as by one man’s transgression the curse came upon us, so by one man’s obedience the curse was taken off; his death finished and accomplished the sacrifice for iniquity, and brought in an universal righteousness. By his resurrection he spoiled death, and the grave, and corruption; and by his ascension up on high, he became the High-Priest of his church to procure the forgiveness of their sins, and to shed down abundantly the gifts of righteousness and peace, to become the providence of the world, and the true King in Jeshurun. These things were all contained in the former half of the dispensation, the semblance of them appeared through the covering of the ceremonial law, the spirit of them, …” (Irving page 63)

Progressive Revelation

“If, then, it be true, as the revealing angel declared unto John, that the Spirit of
prophecy is but the testimony of Jesus, the church should be prepared to expect, (making due allowance for the different ages in the progress of revelation,) and she should seek to find in the prophets to whom the word of the Lord came, a like Spirit, and a like manner of expressing it, to that which is found in the blessed Lord himself, and in the holy apostles.” (Irving pages 65 and 66)

……………………………….............................................
Irving gives the details of the Albury Conference held in 1826.

“Having said so much, I think it to be my duty further to state the godly order and arrangement according to which the Albury conference, concerning the second advent, was conducted: for to this, under God, I attribute in no small degree the abundance of the blessings with which our souls were made glad. We set apart a day for each subject, and resolved to give no more than one day to each; and as we were but six free days assembled, having met on the Thursday and parted on the Friday of the week following, we joined the fourth and the seventh subjects together, conceiving them to be closely connected with one another.” (Irving page 124)

………………………………..............................................
Doctor Joseph Wolff, a converted Jew, was invited to the Albury Conference.

“No appeal was allowed but to the scriptures, of which the originals lay before us, in the interpretation of which, if any question arose, we had the most learned eastern scholar perhaps in the world to appeal to, and a native Hebrew, I mean Joseph Wolff. In this way did every man proceed to lay out the nature and the ground of his conviction, which was done with so much liberty and plentifulness, and mutual respect and reverence of the Holy Word, as much to delight our souls.”

“Such were the six days we spent under the holy and hospitable roof of Albury house, within the chime of the church bell, and surrounded by the most picturesque and beautiful forms of nature; but the sweetest spot was that council room where I met the servants of the Lord, the wise virgins waiting with oil in their lamps for the bridegroom, and a sweeter still was that secret chamber where I met in the Spirit my Lord and master whom I hope soon to meet in the flesh.” (Irving page 125)

………………………………................................................
Future temple in Jerusalem implies interpretation of Daniel 9:27

“If it is a material temple built with hands, we return and pray to be informed what temple it may be? They reply, the very temple of Jerusalem, seeing in St. Paul’s time, there was no other material temple of God in the whole earth. But before passing to any other reflection, it is to be believed that St. Paul did not speak here of that individual temple which in his time was standing, otherwise he would have proved a bad prophet, because he could not be ignorant that that very temple of God was shortly to be destroyed, according to the prophecy in the ninth chapter of Daniel, which is very clear, and also the prophecy of Christ himself, who said, speaking of the temple, “there shall not be left one stone upon another which shall not be thrown down,” Matt. xxiv. 2. Wherefore if the apostle spake of the temple of Jerusalem, it is indubitable that he spake of another temple still future, and what is that? It is, they say with great formality, that which Antichrist shall build when he establisheth his court in Jerusalem.” (Lacunza page 301)

“And whence is this knowledge derived? We know that there are no other archives from whence information of the future can be drawn, save the revelation contained in the Holy Bible. In what passage then is this notice to be met with? In this very passage, haply of St. Paul, after it hath been understood and accommodated to that view of the subject? It will hardly be believed, yet true it is, that there is not another passage pointed to, or which can be pointed to, because there are not any such in all the Holy Bible: but there are many which assert quite the contrary. Look at this which is worth a thousand, in the ninth chapter of the prophet Daniel, who speaking of Messiah’s death and its results, hath this, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” If the desolation of Jerusalem and her temple is to continue until the consummation and the end, at which time shall Antichrist build the city and the temple which the Romans have desolated? If before the consummation and the end, he will falsify the prophecy, and this were indeed one of his greatest acts of prowess. If after, then, shall it be still a greater prowess, as he must escape from hell in order to build the temple and the city. See you not, Sir, with your eyes the hypothesis and its inconclusiveness?” (Lacunza page 301)

……………………………….......................................
Implies possible “gap” in scripture of two thousand years

“I am very far from resisting this small violence, or of raising a dispute about words. The sense which they here give of the word immediately, would be natural and obvious enough, were there not a most weighty interest at stake, and did the doctors not declare to us a little more of their mind: if they did not tell us what it is they really intend by this economy; if their expression, not much after, were absolute or only relative; if it signified a few days, or a few hours, or signified a little time, compared with another great period; for example, a thousand or two thousand years; but in reality they do not leave us in such uncertainty. If the not much after be absolute, we shall have the simple and natural idea that there will not intervene between the end of the tribulation, and the coining of the Lord, time sufficient for extraordinary events. But if this not much after, be relative, then that time may be enlarged as much as they please, and there will be no setting limits to how much the immediately in the text really implies; which in my view of it is the very thing intended, and, to me, as appears, the whole of the mystery. If not, for what end change the word immediately, which is so definite, into the words shortly, quickly, not much after, which are not so definite. The space of time which these words must signify, in the mind of the doctors, cannot be so short, as not to be sufficient to contain with ease, the many and the great events which they intend to include in it. Behold some of the principal ones, in addition to those which were pointed out in the preceding section.” (Lacunza page 316)

………………………………........................................
States seven years are needed for conversion of the Jews.

“There shall be time, in the fourth place, for those events of which I have spoke above, that is, for the conversion of the Jews, and likewise for the gathering together and consuming of all the armies of Gog, which cannot take less time than seven years, according to the prophecy: and if these seven years signify a great and indeterminate number of years, so much the better, for so much the more time will it be necessary to allow. And so, my friend, you have the whole mystery deciphered. You see where this pausing upon immediately, shortly, soon, not much after, terminates.” (Lacunza page 316)

………………………………........................................

Unfulfilled promise

“It is to say generally and with little explanation, that the promises of God made to the Jews, especially those great and extraordinary promises, which till now have not been fulfilled, were not absolute but conditional; and therefore have not been accomplished, because the Jews on their part have failed to fulfil the condition.” (Lacunza page 336)

………………………………........................................

“THE bounds of the land of promise marked off in this prophecy, are doubtless, somewhat more ample than the children of Israel ever occupied; and yet they are precisely the same with those which we find expressed in the authentic writing of the gift which God made to our holy and venerable father Abraham, as clearly appeareth by these words: “In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:” Gen. xv. 18.” (Lacunza page 338)
.....................................................................................................................................................

All underlining has been added. Bold type has been added in some selections.
Comments in Blue are mine. All quotes are from the online 2000 edition of book “Coming of Messiah…” by Manuel Lacunza. http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/prophetic/lacunza-intro.html

The proof that the Lord still has thought for His chosen people, Judah AND Israel, and His Holy Land, is throughout scripture. Of course He is speaking to this day, otherwise why is it all part of our Holy Word? You guys denigrate the Bible by saying its just all history.

Psalm 102:12-14 You, Lord are enthroned forever, Your fame will endure to all generations. You will arise and have mercy on Zion, for it is time to take pity on her; the appointed time has come. The Land is dear to Your servants, even the dust and stones moves them to pity.Hab. 2:3
Psalm 102:15-17 The nations will revere Your Name and all the earthy leaders; Your glory, when You rebuild Zion again. On that Day You will hear the prayer of the destitute, He will not spurn their plea.

Psalm 102:18-22 This will be written down for future generations, so that people as yet unborn may praise the Lord. He looks down from His sanctuary on high and surveys the earth. He hears the groans of the captives and He sets free those under a death sentence. So; when the peoples are assembled to worship, in Jerusalem, the Name of Y’hovah will be praised.

Psalm 103:6-14 The Lord is righteous in all He does, He gives justice to those wronged. He revealed His ways to Moses and showed mighty deeds to the Israelites. The Lord is compassionate and gracious, longsuffering and He will not keep His anger forever. He has not treated us as our sins deserve, but as the heavens are far above the earth, so is His love for those who fear Him. In His compassion for us, He puts our offences far away, for He knows how we were made and remembers that we are but dust.

Psalm 106:4-5 Remember me, Lord, when you show favour to Your people, look on me when you save them, that I may see the prosperity of Your chosen ones, so that I may rejoice in Your nations joy and exult with Your own people.
Psalm 106:47-48 Deliver us, Lord our God and gather us from the nations, so that we may give thanks to Your holy Name, we will make Your praise our pride. Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting – and the people say: AMEN. PRAISE THE LORD!


Isaiah 49:8-11 The Lord says; In the time of My favour, on the Day of Deliverance, I will come to your aid, you are My people; destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land. Go free now and in the Land, you will find food and water in plenty. It will not be too hot when the one who loves you will guide you along highways. My people, coming from all parts of the world, will shout for joy as they enter the Land. For the Lord has comforted His people in their distress.
Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

These verses describe a deliverance of ‘those who fear the Lord’ Malachi 3:16-18. As ‘He looks down from on high and sets free the exiles’, so this must occur before the Return of Jesus. ‘My people, destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land’. This is the second Exodus – ‘His people, coming from all parts of the world’, will live in the new country of Beulah in peace and security. It is them who greet the Returning Jesus with- ‘Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord’.

Where did Jesus say He would restore Israel? Point that out?

Click to expand...

Job8 said:

And after Paul talks about the olive tree, here is what he says (which you should have quoted) from verses 25-28:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: As it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [the Messiah], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [Israel]". Speaks for itself.

Click to expand...

Not if you hold context. Paul has just told you the olive tree includes Gentiles, they are Israel also. Also do the word study. The phrase is properly rendered "IN THIS WAY all Israel shall be saved" Pauls argument is the the wild tree and the natural tree are GRAFTED together.

What does Paul say in Philippians 3:2, 3?:
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Job8 said:

How it works is simple:
1. Every person since Abel has been justified by faith.
2. Abraham was justified by faith.
3. The Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) has been justified by faith.
4. Israel at the coming of the "Deliverer" (Christ) will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be justified by faith.

Click to expand...

So how do you come away thinking it's about a "fleshly" Israel? Paul just told you who the true descendants are.

Furthermore, the proper rendering of Romans 11:26 is: "IN THIS WAY all Israel will be saved..." do the study on that. It's properly stated in the Complete Jewish Bible:
Romans 11:26:
26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved. As the Tanakh says, “Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov

The descendants are NOT a matter of the fleshly descendants. This is why Paul said in Romans 2:28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

After Paul has clearly pointed this out early in Romans, he backs it up in Romans 9:6-8 saying:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

So once again, it's not according to fleshy descendency, but SPIRITUAL descendancy! This is whay Paul says in Galatians 4:28:
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Job8 said:

Dozens. But let's just take one (Genesis 15:18) to convince you that there are dozens more: "In the same day the LORD made a COVENANT with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given THIS LAND, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates".

Since the home of the Church is the New Jerusalem, this "seed" of Abraham is Israel, and the land that God has promised them will occupy all the territory between the Nile (the river of Egypt) and the Euphrates (the river of Iraq). That is probably 10 times the land currently occupied by Israel. Therefore this promise remains unfulfilled. Will you believe God, or continue to insist that this is not true?

Click to expand...

Not to convincing Job8! This is true if you don't realize the church IS NEW JERUSALEM. Paul tells you this in Galatians 4:26:
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

It is stated again in Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Job8 said:

Absolutely. God would raise up His Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) before He would resume His dealings with Israel. The Church did not nullify Israel.

Click to expand...

I don't deny that God will turn his attention to fleshly Israel at some point, that's clear...and that's the point Paul makes. The point you're not getting is the Israel that God is concerned with is in Christ. Isaiah 49:1-3:
Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me.
2 He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver.
3 He said to Me, “You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory.”

JESUS IS ISRAEL!

Job8 said:

Many places. Read the OT. Jesus is Yahweh, and Yahweh said He would restore Israel (Ezek 37:21-28). But Christ even revealed that in the NT (Mt 19:28): "And JESUS said unto them, Verily, I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, IN THE REGENERATION, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve throne, JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL".
That speaks for itself, and the regeneration is called the "times of restitution" in Acts 3:20,21, where Peter is speaking to the Jews:
"And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began". That regeneration and restitution includes the redemption and restoration of Israel as noted in Ezekiel 37.

Click to expand...

This, is only true when you miss the fact that the "twelve tribes of Israel" represent the church. This is why the 12 apostles are the GATES if the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:14
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This is why you don't just run to the OT...the NT sheds the light on the OT. They paint a full picture together.

Job8 said:

Already done. See Romans 11:25,26.

Click to expand...

Not done correctly though Job8. You pulled from Paul what you want, not what he wrote. The olive tree is Jews and Gentiles in Christ...they are Israel. As I pointed out, it has NOTHING to do with the flesh. Romans 9 stands as a "fork in the road"...and Paul demonstrates that using Hosea and Isaiah. It seems you want to discount that.

Job8 said:

Because God makes that difference. I have already pointed out that the Church -- Jew and Gentile in one Body, is one aspect of God's plan. Within the Church neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails.
What is taught in the epistles is to the Church. What is taught in the OT prophecies is to future Israel. There is no conflict whatsoever. God has a plan for the Church (New Jerusalem) and for Israel (the Land of Promise).

Click to expand...

No. God made that difference in the OT as Israel were His chosen people. In the NT that is NOT the case. The chosen people are ALL who come to Christ!

"God's plan for the Jews" can't be other than Rom 11:30. That's the conclusion of all dealings with all ethnos.

n2thelight said:

Jeremiah 3:18 "In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers."

Ezekiel 37:15-23 tells us how the Lord will join the two houses back together in the Millennium Age. God told Ezekiel to take two sticks and mark on one stick the name of Ephraim, the ruling tribe of the House of Israel, representing all the ten tribes and their companions. On the other stick Ezekiel was to mark the name of Judah, for the House of Judah, and place both sticks together in one hand. This was to symbolize the bringing them both together into one nation, that they would return to God.

Ezekiel 37:15-23

[16] "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

[17] And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

[18] And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

[19] Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

[20] And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

[22] And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

[23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."​

Click to expand...

Now...go back and understand that is ALL before or during the captivity of Babylon...then see if you can make the connection through Ezra and Nehemiah.

Ask yourself why the "Lion of The Tribe Of Judah", NEVER mentions tribes in the gospels.

keras said:

The proof that the Lord still has thought for His chosen people, Judah AND Israel, and His Holy Land, is throughout scripture. Of course He is speaking to this day, otherwise why is it all part of our Holy Word? You guys denigrate the Bible by saying its just all history.

Psalm 102:12-14 You, Lord are enthroned forever, Your fame will endure to all generations. You will arise and have mercy on Zion, for it is time to take pity on her; the appointed time has come. The Land is dear to Your servants, even the dust and stones moves them to pity.Hab. 2:3
Psalm 102:15-17 The nations will revere Your Name and all the earthy leaders; Your glory, when You rebuild Zion again. On that Day You will hear the prayer of the destitute, He will not spurn their plea.

Psalm 102:18-22 This will be written down for future generations, so that people as yet unborn may praise the Lord. He looks down from His sanctuary on high and surveys the earth. He hears the groans of the captives and He sets free those under a death sentence. So; when the peoples are assembled to worship, in Jerusalem, the Name of Y’hovah will be praised.

Psalm 103:6-14 The Lord is righteous in all He does, He gives justice to those wronged. He revealed His ways to Moses and showed mighty deeds to the Israelites. The Lord is compassionate and gracious, longsuffering and He will not keep His anger forever. He has not treated us as our sins deserve, but as the heavens are far above the earth, so is His love for those who fear Him. In His compassion for us, He puts our offences far away, for He knows how we were made and remembers that we are but dust.

Psalm 106:4-5 Remember me, Lord, when you show favour to Your people, look on me when you save them, that I may see the prosperity of Your chosen ones, so that I may rejoice in Your nations joy and exult with Your own people.
Psalm 106:47-48 Deliver us, Lord our God and gather us from the nations, so that we may give thanks to Your holy Name, we will make Your praise our pride. Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting – and the people say: AMEN. PRAISE THE LORD!

Click to expand...

Keras, did you even stop to think these Psalms are speaking under the Old Covenant? Of course there are prophetic Psalms, but many times the Psalmist gives the picture of what's going on in the prelude.

Just to show you your cherry picking, let's look at Psalm 106. The Psalm is condemning Israel for her disobedience. The verses you pointed out are verses of repentance as the Psalmist has confessed Israel's many sins. He then cries out to God to be saved from the captivity, which God sent them into, and ends with praise.

Was it not Jesus lamenting over Jerusalem about how many times He tried to GATHER them, and they would not?

keras said:

Isaiah 49:8-11 The Lord says; In the time of My favour, on the Day of Deliverance, I will come to your aid, you are My people; destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land. Go free now and in the Land, you will find food and water in plenty. It will not be too hot when the one who loves you will guide you along highways. My people, coming from all parts of the world, will shout for joy as they enter the Land. For the Lord has comforted His people in their distress.
Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

These verses describe a deliverance of ‘those who fear the Lord’ Malachi 3:16-18. As ‘He looks down from on high and sets free the exiles’, so this must occur before the Return of Jesus. ‘My people, destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land’. This is the second Exodus – ‘His people, coming from all parts of the world’, will live in the new country of Beulah in peace and security. It is them who greet the Returning Jesus with- ‘Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord’.

Click to expand...

This is the coming of Christ Keras. it makes the point you often miss that God's "chosen people" are Jews and Gentiles. They are the "Israel of God", which is why in Isaiah 49:3, Jesus is called MY SERVANT Israel.

Think on that. Why does God call Jesus MY SERVANT ISRAEL?