What about the Oneness Pentecostals?

murjahel · Nov 12, 2014

REVELATION 5:
1. And I saw in the right hand of Him Who sat on the throne
a book written within on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3. And no man: in heaven, nor in the earth, neither under the earth,
was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5. And one of the elders saith unto me: Weep not; behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6. And I behold, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, Who are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him Who sat upon the throne.

There is nothing wrong with John's eyesight... and 'he saw' God, the Father, upon the throne in heaven, and he saw Jesus take a book out of the 'right' hand of the Father... He notices the throne, God, a book, a hand, Jesus...

Wait! He saw God and Jesus in different parts of the room, One standing, One sitting... and Jesus takes a book from God the Father's hand... how can that be if there were just ONE of them? Of course, it could not be... And someday, what John saw prophetically, we will see literally too... There are three in the Trinity. When this prophetic event happens, the Holy Spirit will still be on earth to convict sinners.

It is only the 'face' of God that this human and mortal body of now cannot see. The back parts of God were seen by Moses... and John saw God sitting on a throne, saw a hand... but it does not say he saw the face...

Exodus 33:20-23 (KJV)
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

I have had visions, and saw God upon a throne also, and though I did not see His face, I saw a body sitting on a throne... Isaiah saw God 'high and lifted up, and God's train filled the temple'... We can see God, will soon see God, and the other two of the Trinity... Can't wait to see this vision of John's fulfilled...

of course, some don't care... some will storm out of heaven perhaps mad that they were wrong... LOL

geetrue · Nov 12, 2014

Don't get mad at invisible people Murjahel ... that believe God is one God in all three persons. That's what I believe, but I follow no man or religion so I don't really know who you are mad at, but it's not me.

Do I have to remember the scripture references?

Jesus came from God
Jesus is the first born of every creature
By Him all things have been made and by Him all things exist
Jesus lives in the heart of every believer that invites Him in
(which I suggest everyone should do every morning so it is fresh in your mind ready for the first attack)
Jesus said, "I have received all authority and power in heaven and earth"
Notice Jesus says, "I have received" Received what? "All authority and power"
From who? Only the Father could give His son this authority and last, but not least for Jesus having everything under his feet, because of the Father of course.

Who's one the throne?
Revelations 21:6-7
6 The One on the throne said to me, It is finished. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give free water from the spring of the water of life to anyone who is thirsty. 7 Those who win the victory will receive this, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

Stop getting mad at people that don't see it your way ... all of you!

murjahel · Nov 12, 2014

from Dake Topical Index.

Eighteen Fallacies:
1. That there is only one Person or one Being called "God."
2. That there is a difference in meaning of three human Persons and three divine persons.
3. That the terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit refer to three manifestations of one Person or one Being.
4. That the Father is the only Person who is divine; the Son was created by the Father; and the Holy Spirit was created by the Son (Arianism).
5. That God consists of three Persons in one Person or three Beings in one Being.
6. That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are essential parts of one Being, just as man is made up of body, soul, and spirit.
7. That God is a complex Person and so it is folly to seek to explain the Trinity.
8. That the Trinity is beyond human comprehension and bewilders the most learned.
9. That the Trinity is not an Old Testament revelation.
10. That God has no body, physical parts, or passions like human beings-nothing of a bodily nature.
11. That God is invisible reality and cannot be seen by natural eyes.
12. That God is a universal mind, conscience, love, goodness, and power filling all space and matter.
13. That there is nothing on earth to resemble Him.
14. That God cannot be comprehended by the senses but by the soul, for He is above sense perceptions.
15. The image of God consists only of moral and spiritual likeness.
16. That all statements of God having a body with physical parts are mere figures of speech conveying some idea of God to man (see Anthropomorphism).
17. That Jesus Christ is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
18. That Jesus is the one God and Jehovah of the Old Testament.

All such statements are unscriptural in the extreme and are contradicted by thousands of plain passages about God.

Why would God tell us that all invisible things are clearly seen by visible things on earth, even to His eternal power and Godhead (Romans 1:20), if He is incomprehensible; if there is nothing on earth to resemble Him; if He is a bodiless being; if He is three beings in one being; if His image is only moral and spiritual; if descriptions of His body and physical parts are not true and real; and if He is an invisible nothingness floating in nowhere?

If this is what God is, why did He not say this instead of what He did say?

Is it possible that He does not speak to us in plain human language? Or, is it more reasonable that the church and false religions are in error and that God does mean what He says about Himself?

Who gave man the right to change the Bible from a literal to an imaginative meaning?

If statements about God are mere figures of speech trying to convey some idea of Him, what ideas do they convey? That He does not have a body with physical parts, or that He does? That He is less real than His creations, or that He is as real? It would be unlike God to say over 20,000 things about Himself if He did not have a personal body, soul and spirit as stated.
Dake Topical Index.

rick357 · Nov 12, 2014

So I guess Dake has some special authority that should silence all other scholars who dont see the scripture the same way....do you know that photons act as a wave untill you observe them then become a particle...so it is with light...with what you measure it is measured to you.

mrhappy3 · Nov 12, 2014

I thought you were a dakes fan.

He has some interesting thoughts like his interpenetration doctrine.

Anyway, I like your bit about not seeing Gods face-it sounds like it makes sense.
And seeing the rest of his body..mmm..sounds a bit like the headless horseman.

mrhappy3 · Nov 12, 2014

Respect murj one day we'll know.

Messy · Nov 12, 2014

murjahel said:
of course, some don't care... some will storm out of heaven perhaps mad that they were wrong... LOL

When we go to heaven all of a sudden we hear someone yelling: I told ya so! I told ya so! Who's that? Oh that's Murjahel, lol.

Alithis · Nov 12, 2014

murjahel said:
None of us fully comprehend salvation, but we preach what we do... none of us comprehend fully the gifts of the Holy Spirit... but we seek them...

to not fully comprehend, does not mean God meant for us to be ignorant of them, we need to study... and we need to know what the Lord has REVEALED.

The Trinity is not that hard... "One' as it is used is a word that means 'in agreement, and they are one that way, the same as the church is supposed to be ONE... God reveals to us Three Persons... very plainly. They talk to each other, love each other, can be in separate places, can hand a book to the other, can go away and send 'Another' back to replace with the former was doing...

Come on now... is that too hard to see that there are THREE? If all that were one, it would mean God has MPD, and we consider that rightly to be totally unstable... God is not a MPD victim, and He has plainly shown us that They are Three.

i know..

i have what i consider to be a rather indepth comprehension of the God head ..then i count all my wisdom as foolishness to GOD.

keeps me humble..i need that.
the problem is the depth of comprehension is not easily expressed in words ..it feel at times beyond mere mortal limited spoken communications ..in need of the language of the spirit where a sighing groan can speak a volume.a language where knowing is known by the receiver even as it is being known by the giver.

of Course God is one of course he is three of course 3 are one .one manifests the other one made known by the other one the power of the other one beyond comprehension one beyond knowing one beyond seeing they are always one ... and are they for God Is....see? we do not have terminology to encompass the glory of the only living eternal true GOD .. everything i just said will be perceived by some as wrong..by others as right and by others as foolishness.

everytime this topic arises i end up saying ..the terminology of the trinity (i prefer the term Godhead) is but mans limited verbal encapsulation of the incomprehensible .and as such will be endlessly debated until we are removed from the carnal mind forever and see Jesus

mrhappy3 · Nov 12, 2014

murjahel · Nov 12, 2014

more from Dake's ...

What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human being, angel, or any other being has his own body, soul, and spirit.

We mean by body, whether a spirit body or a flesh body, the house for the indwelling of the personal soul and spirit. The soul is that which feels and the spirit is that which knows.

The doctrine of the Trinity can be clearly seen, being understood by the visible things that are made, even to His eternal power and Godhead (Romans 1:20).

What on earth was created in the image and likeness of God?
Man (Genesis 1:26-28).

Do God's image and likeness consist only of moral and spiritual powers?
If so, it can be concluded that man is only a moral and spiritual being.

Is God bodiless?
If so, we can conclude that man is also bodiless.

Is God only one being made up of several persons or beings in the one being? If so, we can conclude that man is one person or being made up of many.

Does God need a flesh body in order to have any kind of body? No!

There are such things as spirit and heavenly bodies. See 1 Cor. 15:35-38.

From this passage we learn that all things in creation-grain, fish, birds, beasts, man, angels, and even the planets-have bodies, sizes, shapes, and forms.

The Bible declares that God has a body, shape, image, likeness, physical parts, a personal soul and spirit, and all other things that constitute a being or a person with a body, soul, and spirit (see note, John 4:24; note, John 5:37;

Dake Topical Index.

Andrea411 · Nov 12, 2014

murjahel said:
REVELATION 5:
1. And I saw in the right hand of Him Who sat on the throne
a book written within on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3. And no man: in heaven, nor in the earth, neither under the earth,
was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5. And one of the elders saith unto me: Weep not; behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6. And I behold, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, Who are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him Who sat upon the throne.

There is nothing wrong with John's eyesight... and 'he saw' God, the Father, upon the throne in heaven, and he saw Jesus take a book out of the 'right' hand of the Father... He notices the throne, God, a book, a hand, Jesus...

Wait! He saw God and Jesus in different parts of the room, One standing, One sitting... and Jesus takes a book from God the Father's hand... how can that be if there were just ONE of them? Of course, it could not be... And someday, what John saw prophetically, we will see literally too... There are three in the Trinity. When this prophetic event happens, the Holy Spirit will still be on earth to convict sinners.

It is only the 'face' of God that this human and mortal body of now cannot see. The back parts of God were seen by Moses... and John saw God sitting on a throne, saw a hand... but it does not say he saw the face...

Exodus 33:20-23 (KJV)
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

I have had visions, and saw God upon a throne also, and though I did not see His face, I saw a body sitting on a throne... Isaiah saw God 'high and lifted up, and God's train filled the temple'... We can see God, will soon see God, and the other two of the Trinity... Can't wait to see this vision of John's fulfilled...

of course, some don't care... some will storm out of heaven perhaps mad that they were wrong... LOL

Must have been one powerful vision. God bless you... thats one of those wow moments...

mrhappy3 · Nov 12, 2014

Jargon jargon jargon

What purpose does it serve?

People need a saviour-end of.

1 Tim 6v4

2 Tim 2v14

murjahel · Nov 12, 2014

I love the jargon that makes disciples, lets them know Whom they worship, explains in detail the work and ministry of the Godhead to we, the saved, and benefitees of Their great works.

We are not to just make converts and let them wander in confusion till the Lord comes, we are to make disciples. Some never do learn much, and they struggle in their Christian existence, tripping and falling for every whim of doctrine out there.

Angels have spirit bodies. Men have seen angels over 100 times in Scripture.

We will have a spirit body someday, after we dislodge this one from our spirit. Jesus ascended with a spirit body that will be like ours, and when we see Him, we will be like unto Him in body. We were created in the image of God, and He too has a body, a manifest presence that sits on a throne in heaven, can give Jesus a book, can be seen by all who make it to that place...

284 passages in the Bible on spirits show that spirit bodies are real.

Heaven is a literal planet (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:10-16), having cities, mansions, furniture, inhabitants, living conditions, etc.

God is not a mystery, not some cloud floating around, He is a real person... I have seen Him, and so have many others... While some have no desire for that kind of relationship, I find most do...

mrhappy3 · Nov 12, 2014

eagle48 said:
When I first joined CF I just figured the rules were the norm, no foul language, be on your best behavior so I didn't read the rules. (after reading the rules I now see that I probably broke a few rules, sorry ) I had no idea I was entering into a Trinity only belief Christian forum and if you post something with ties to the oneness belief it is removed. I am actually surprised this thread hasn't been removed yet. If the oneness Pentecostal religion is so wrong why did the Lord lead me there through a heavenly encounter? If it is so wrong why is the Lord leading many people to this religion where they are being filled with the Holy Spirit? I would think if the Lord is against this religion miracles wouldn't be happening in this religion. Having attended churches that believe in the Trinity most of my life I myself find it easier to understand the Trinity belief. There is scripture that backs both Oneness and Trinity. Apparently it is not a deal breaker with the Lord because I have seen more miracles in this religion then ones I grew up in. I myself witnessed my grandson at eight months old gain sight after being born completely blind with no light perception go through the prayer line at the miracle service that is held once a year at the UPC. He is six now and the doctor said he is her best patient with his condition and if he continues to improve he might be able to drive. There are many more testimonies like his. The church opens the door for all people in different religions to go through their prayer line and they have had miracles happen to them.

One testimony that I find awesome is a man who was once a monk tells how three times when he passed the UPC his steering wheel jerked towards the church each time. He finally turned into the church and now he is a UPC preacher with his own church and has written a book, The Monk who stole the bell.

I read in post where people have a problem with their doctrine of no tongues no salvation. I personally don't believe that and have talked to many people in this religion who doesn't believe it either. I just can't picture my sweet grandmother who loved the Lord and prepared communion every month in hell because she was taught tongues ceased to exist. I haven't heard it preached in the church I am in so it's not pushed in my church.

Years ago I received a letter from a Catholic priest stating that my marriage to my ex-husband was not acknowledged in the eyes of the Lord because we got married in a Methodist church and not a Catholic church therefore we were not considered married. This letter was part of a process that my ex went through when he married a Catholic woman and was converting. So all religions I feel have their faults.

The point I want to make is don't count this religion out. Jesus said in Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

When I look at a church I look at the fruit that it is producing and this religion is producing an abundance of good fruit regardless of how you feel about their doctrine.

Well said !
I agree with everything you said.
I started off in a similar church after being led to the Lord by a catholic charismatic.
I was there two years.
Doctrine aside-it was a great place to start-people really believed God.
Met brother stoneking in Scotland just over 10 years back-still my fave preacher.

murjahel · Nov 12, 2014

eagle48 said:
When I first joined CF I just figured the rules were the norm, no foul language, be on your best behavior so I didn't read the rules. (after reading the rules I now see that I probably broke a few rules, sorry ) I had no idea I was entering into a Trinity only belief Christian forum and if you post something with ties to the oneness belief it is removed. I am actually surprised this thread hasn't been removed yet. .

This forum is Trinitarian, and yet, as you see, some are blatantly trying to push the rules... that is not so uncommon here, and eventually, after a few conferences, something gets done. I am trying to post what the forum site accepts as orthodox, but the pretend orthodoxers sometimes push the limits...

There are some sincere believers in the 'Oneness', I have dealt with many of them, even won one of their preachers to the Trinitarian teachings, and he now pastors a Pentecostal church minus the oneness doctrine. The Oneness doctrine depends on errant translation of a word or two, calling some other verses uninspired, and ignoring totally the teaching of many other verses.

Read along, but do not try to teach oneness here, as it is a forbidden thing to do... God bless.

mrhappy3 · Nov 12, 2014

murjahel said:
I love the jargon that makes disciples, lets them know Whom they worship, explains in detail the work and ministry of the Godhead to we, the saved, and benefitees of Their great works.

We are not to just make converts and let them wander in confusion till the Lord comes, we are to make disciples. Some never do learn much, and they struggle in their Christian existence, tripping and falling for every whim of doctrine out there.

Angels have spirit bodies. Men have seen angels over 100 times in Scripture.

We will have a spirit body someday, after we dislodge this one from our spirit. Jesus ascended with a spirit body that will be like ours, and when we see Him, we will be like unto Him in body. We were created in the image of God, and He too has a body, a manifest presence that sits on a throne in heaven, can give Jesus a book, can be seen by all who make it to that place...

284 passages in the Bible on spirits show that spirit bodies are real.

Heaven is a literal planet (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:10-16), having cities, mansions, furniture, inhabitants, living conditions, etc.

God is not a mystery, not some cloud floating around, He is a real person... I have seen Him, and so have many others... While some have no desire for that kind of relationship, I find most do...

Who are we to say otherwise? Good for you.

mrhappy3 · Nov 12, 2014

Best books by far on the subject

Oneness Pentecostals and the trinity-Boyd

Christianity without the cross-fudge

DarylFawcett · Nov 12, 2014

MOD HAT ON!!!!!

Thread closed for Staff Review.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!

twob4me · Nov 13, 2014

~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There was a question raised by some members about whether this thread should be allowed here or moved. Staff reviewed the thread and came to a consensus that there is a connection between Oneness Pentecostals and Pentecostals and thus is a valid discussion. If you have questions or disagree with this please start a thread in Member Services Center and discuss it with them and not on the open board or in this thread. I am reopening the thread. Please remember the board rules when posting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

mrhappy3 · Nov 13, 2014

here here - well said MODS. (its very educational).

What about the Oneness Pentecostals?

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