Resurrection Disproves Pop Culture End Time Teachings

iamlamad said:

I would advise you to ALWAYS take the words of Jesus versus the words of Solomon. Jesus always spoke what He heard the Father say. Solomon wrote in his human wisdom.

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what you said here shows that you will go to any length, even pitting God's holy word against itself in order to promote your false immortal soul doctrine

Manasseh_ said:

what you said here shows that you will go to any length, even pitting God's holy word against itself in order to promote your false immortal soul doctrine

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Would you say that Job's three friends answers to him were the inspired word of God? That is, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to say what they said?

Be careful how you answer this, for at the end, God tells Job that everything they said was WRONG! It was accurately written, but it was NOT INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit when it was spoken. In other words, it is in the Bible, but it is NOT a part of the inspired word of God we use as inspired.

Was Peter inspired by the Holy Spirit when he said "not so, Lord" and was rebuked by Jesus? No, because Jesus said, "get behind me, Satan." Yet, we find it in the bible, accurately written.

This is why Paul wrote that we must "rightly divide" the word of truth. I would hope that NO ONE uses the words of Job's three friends, proven wrong by God Himself, as doctrine to live by!

Can you see now, why it seems each has their own doctrines, and they all differ? Some are simply not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

If anyone takes a doctrine or belief from the Old Testament and ignores what is written on that subject in the New Testament is simply not using wisdom.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The SOUL goes to hell. When it is sent to hell, it is "lost."

The spirit also goes to hell:

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

This "prison" was where Lazarus went when he died.

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The soul is the area of feelings:

Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

The soul is where one's BELIEFS are:

Acts 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

The soul and spirit are NOT THE SAME, but are tied together very tightly:ONLY the word of God can separate them

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God Himself has a soul: AGain it is associated with pleasure or feelings

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

The New Testament proves that man IS a Spirit, possesses a soul, and lives in a body. When the body quits, the soul and spirit leave the body and is sent either to heaven or to hell.

The soul is the mind, the will, the emotions and affections. These are in the soul, not in the spirit.

When someone is sent to hell, it is their soul and spirit together, for the soul and spirit cannot be separated.

When the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water, they did not think they saw a soul, they thought they saw a spirit.

Matthew 14:26
And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

The spirit is the part of us that is born again:

Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Our spirits, when born again, FIGHT against our flesh: therefore our spirits are far more than just breath.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We will have both spirit and soul when we meet Jesus:

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The New Testament teaches us that our breath ceases when the spirit and soul leaves the body, but the soul and spirit stay together. The spirit is the real person, but his mind, his will and emotions are in his soul.

iamlamad said:

Would you say that Job's three friends answers to him were the inspired word of God? That is, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to say what they said?

Be careful how you answer this, for at the end, God tells Job that everything they said was WRONG! It was accurately written, but it was NOT INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit when it was spoken. In other words, it is in the Bible, but it is NOT a part of the inspired word of God we use as inspired.

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your red herring isn't going to work as a viable reply either...........Job's 3 friends didn't write any books that are canon and therefore part of God's inspired word,............answer this and you be careful how you answer ..........which part of Eccl. , Proverbs and or the Song of Solomon isn't inspired by God ? all of each book? certain parts of the books?

you said Solomon used "human wisdom" which implies carnal thinking, which part of any of these books were inspired and which part was only Solomon's limited carnal thinking ?

..........I doubt there will be any honest answers from you on these questions, you dug the hole by saying what you said, good luck trying to climb out

iamlamad said:

It is amazing how anyone who disagrees with you "lacks understanding."

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It's amazing how you can conclude that without checking the facts. I post scriptural facts.

iamlamad said:

May I suggest you go and read the story of the rich man and lazarus?

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You are so one-sided. How about the story when Christ said Lazarus was asleep when he was really dead? Did Christ say he was ascended? No, he said he was asleep.

I have provided enough verses proving mortal death is sleep in God's eyes, but one-sided individuals ignore verses they want to ignore.

iamlamad said:

You will find out the TRUTH: man is a SPIRIT and at death the SPIRIT with the soul leaves the body.

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If you had read thru the thread, you would have read Eze 37's account of the breathe of man being God's spirit. Man does not have a spirit. When God breathes breathe into man, man becomes a living soul, his flesh comes alive. When man dies, the spirit returns to God. There's nothing of the being that exist alive.That's the facts.

iamlamad said:

In the old days, before Jesus rose - as in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, both went DOWN towards the center of the earth. But they went to separate places. Please note that both were VERY MUCH alive, which blows your theory all to - well, after all, we are talking about hell, or Hades: the place of departed Spirits.

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Does it make sense to you why Christ is the 1st begotten from the dead?

iamlamad said:

There was a great gulf fixed between where Lazarus was and where the rich man was. There was no fire where Lazarus was, while the fire was torturing the rich man. Please also note that they could SEE and THINK and REMEMBER.

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That great gulf is the lake of fire, and the text doesn't say the same day Lazarus died he was in heaven. Nothing rises from the dead until the set resurrections.

iamlamad said:

I would advise you to ALWAYS take the words of Jesus versus the words of Solomon. Jesus always spoke what He heard the Father say. Solomon wrote in his human wisdom.

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I would advise you to try to be more understanding and knowledgeable.

Daniel Martinovich said:

The doctrine of general resurrection is an easy to understand example of what is wrong with pop culture end time prophecy teachings. It clearly shows how people misunderstand the nature of the illustrations Bible prophecy uses. The Biblical doctrine of general resurrection is that there is immediate bodily\physical life after death. Not physical as we know physical , that is flesh, but physical nonetheless. We are a spiritual beings that have spiritual bodies just like the angels but that live inside, and, are connected to a flesh body. When we put off these flesh bodies we, will immediately go to our destinies of heaven or hell.
That is general resurrection and is a doctrine taught in the Bible in opposition to the many false teachings like reincarnation, materialism, annihilation, soul sleep and yes, a future event called "the" resurrection where God uses the molecules of dust our flesh bodies became to make new bodies with.
This is so clear that most Christians intuitively believe it already despite the confusing false teachings they sort of accept about a one or two time future event called "the" resurrection tied to their Bible prophecy teachings. Here is a very short, very easy to read article that goes over the scriptures that teach this if your interested.
Resurrection

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Some of this is truth, but some is nonsense, and UNSCRIPTURAL.

Matthew 27 reads...."the earth did quake...and the graves were opened."

If God does NOT resurrect our natural body and turn it into a flesh and bone body, Matthew would not have written "the graves were opened."

Paul wrote, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This is speaking of a PHYSICAL flesh and blood body being changed into a resurrection body of flesh and bone: no more blood. Does this writer imagine that the dead in Christ get something different?

The truth is, the graves WILL open and these flesh and blood bodies - even those turned to dust or turned onto ash and smoke, will come together again, perhaps on an Atomic level or perhaps on a Quark level, and form a new, resurrection body. This fact is PROVEN by the resurrected body of our Lord Jesus: he had the SAME BODY with the SAME NAIL HOLES, but no blood. He could eat a fish, then walk through a wall, and not leave fish on the wall.

Resurrection: definition:

"The rising of Jesus from the tomb after his death; a central and distinctive belief of the Christian faith. The Gospels state that after Jesus was crucified and lay in a tomb between Friday evening and Sunday morning, he rose, in body as well as in spirit, and appeared alive to his followers."

the action or fact of resurrecting or being resurrected.
"the story of the resurrection of Osiris"

• (in Christian belief) Christ's rising from the dead.
  noun: Resurrection; noun: the Resurrection
  
  
• (in Christian belief) the rising of the dead at the Last Judgment.
  noun: the Resurrection
  
  

beware of analysis paralysis

precepts said:

It's amazing how you can conclude that without checking the facts. I post scriptural facts.



You are so one-sided. How about the story when Christ said Lazarus was asleep when he was really dead? Did Christ say he was ascended? No, he said he was asleep.

I have provided enough verses proving mortal death is sleep in God's eyes, but one-sided individuals ignore verses they want to ignore.


If you had read thru the thread, you would have read Eze 37's account of the breathe of man being God's spirit. Man does not have a spirit. When God breathes breathe into man, man becomes a living soul, his flesh comes alive. When man dies, the spirit returns to God. There's nothing of the being that exist alive.That's the facts.



Does it make sense to you why Christ is the 1st begotten from the dead?


That great gulf is the lake of fire, and c. Nothing rises from the dead until the set resurrections.



I would advise you to try to be more understanding and knowledgeable.

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I will give you this: you do post scripture, but the scripture you post is not proof of what is being discussed. I agree, you do post "facts," but your facts turn out to be nonsense instead of proving anything. You only IMAGINE your "facts" prove something. Remember, Judas Iscariot went and hung himself - go thou and do likewise. This is the will of the Father concerning you. ANYONE can put two or three scriptures together to make it appear to say what it really does not. You seem a master at this. Worse yet, you are almost always wrong, yet condemn others when they disagree.

OF COURSE Lazarusm Mary and Martha's brother, was asleep in death. Jesus said He was. But that was only his physical body. His spirit and soul went to the very same place that the Rich man and Lazarus went to: Hell or Hades. it was a place divided: the righteous were on one side of a great divide, while the unrighteous were on the other side, in the fire. God and read the story again. They were ALIVE, and could see and think and remember. Abraham was still there after all those years. Get this straight: NO ONE could "ascend" to heaven after death until Jesus rose from the dead. All were confined to Hades.

Have you never read of the now MANY books of people whom Jesus has taken to hell, so them could come back and tell what they saw? Perhaps you need to do a little reading. These books all agree with what the bible teaches about hell. IT IS A PLACE OF TORMENT for the damned.

Next, you need to bring your theories up to date on what a spirit is, in the NEW TESTAMENT. Even the disciples knew more than you, for when they saw Jesus walking on the water, they thought it was a SPIRIT. When the righteous today go to heaven, it is their SPIRIT with their SOUL. Look up spirit in the New Testament and read every mention of that word, and you will see that the New Testament has a very different idea than you have.

Remember that "God is a spirit." We are created in His image. We are spirit beings also. You will find this is truth when your heart stops, if you don't learn it sooner.

Why was Christ the first begotten from the dead? He was the VERY FIRST human to get a resurrection body. It is as simple as that. But He was only the FIRSTfruits. The bride of Christ, the righteous from the church will be the secondfruits, thirdfruits, etc. AS you know, Lazarus was risen from the dead before Jesus, but only risen back to a physical body.

"That great gulf is the lake of fire"

That is only conjecture. I thought you were not guilty of this. The bible does not tell us this, so you are only guessing.

"the text doesn't say the same day Lazarus died he was in heaven"

The text COULD NOT say that, for NO ONE could ascend to heaven until JESUS did it first.

Nothing rises from the dead until the set resurrections.

Learn the truth: "death" is only separation. Physical death is separation of the spirit and soul from the physical body. Spiritual death is separation of a person from God. Eternal death is 1 +2, or someone in spiritual death and they dying physically. Our physical bodies are only our earth-suits or the house our spirits live in while on earth. They may turn to dust if Jesus tarries His coming long enough. The only thing that "rises" from death is our physical body or house. You are right; our flesh body will not rise until the time for resurrection. But just as Paul wrote, when my heart stops, I - the real me - my spirit and soul, will be present with Jesus in heaven.

By now there are COUNTLESS stories and books of people who have died and went to heaven, but got sent back to their body because someone was praying. Have you read none of these books? OF COURSE they went to heaven, for they were born again. I have heard one of these testimonies with my own ears and spoke to the man who died and came back to tell. You could look him up if I could remember his name. We can believe these personal testimonies for they all agree with the truth of the Word of God.

Your "facts" then are only nonsense, not truth.

Manasseh_ said:

your red herring isn't going to work as a viable reply either...........Job's 3 friends didn't write any books that are canon and therefore part of God's inspired word,............answer this and you be careful how you answer ..........which part of Eccl. , Proverbs and or the Song of Solomon isn't inspired by God ? all of each book? certain parts of the books?

you said Solomon used "human wisdom" which implies carnal thinking, which part of any of these books were inspired and which part was only Solomon's limited carnal thinking ?

..........I doubt there will be any honest answers from you on these questions, you dug the hole by saying what you said, good luck trying to climb out

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YOU will have to figure out the answers to those questions yourself. I will give you a strong hint: if you find something different in the New Testament, use it for your doctrine, NOT what was found in those books you mentioned. For example, do a study of "spirit" and "soul" in the New Testament and compare with what Solomon taught.

iamlamad said:

I will give you this: you do post scripture, but the scripture you post is not proof of what is being discussed. I agree, you do post "facts," but your facts turn out to be nonsense instead of proving anything. You only IMAGINE your "facts" prove something. Remember, Judas Iscariot went and hung himself - go thou and do likewise. This is the will of the Father concerning you. ANYONE can put two or three scriptures together to make it appear to say what it really does not. You seem a master at this. Worse yet, you are almost always wrong, yet condemn others when they disagree.

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Like I keep saying, it's not that you can't understand because you're not as ignorant as you would want me to think.

iamlamad said:

OF COURSE Lazarusm Mary and Martha's brother, was asleep in death. Jesus said He was. But that was only his physical body. His spirit and soul went to the very same place that the Rich man and Lazarus went to: Hell or Hades.

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Where does it say that in scripture? It doesn't; which means, once again, you are "speculating."

iamlamad said:

it was a place divided: the righteous were on one side of a great divide, while the unrighteous were on the other side, in the fire. God and read the story again. They were ALIVE, and could see and think and remember. Abraham was still there after all those years. Get this straight: NO ONE could "ascend" to heaven after death until Jesus rose from the dead. All were confined to Hades.

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You are purposely posting fraudulent claims. There's no life after death until the resurrections, and the Lazarus parable was a resurrection. The gulf was the lake of fire.

iamlamad said:

Have you never read of the now MANY books of people whom Jesus has taken to hell, so them could come back and tell what they saw? Perhaps you need to do a little reading. These books all agree with what the bible teaches about hell. IT IS A PLACE OF TORMENT for the damned.

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With all due respect, peoples opinions do not count as fact.

Benny Hinn claims to heal thousands, but the world doesn't believe him. So, who are those people who write books claiming life after death? Nobody.

iamlamad said:

Next, you need to bring your theories up to date on what a spirit is, in the NEW TESTAMENT. Even the disciples knew more than you, for when they saw Jesus walking on the water, they thought it was a SPIRIT. When the righteous today go to heaven, it is their SPIRIT with their SOUL. Look up spirit in the New Testament and read every mention of that word, and you will see that the New Testament has a very different idea than you have.

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See! You do this purposely.

I know you know the story of Christ and doubting Thomas. You read Eze 37 where it says the spirit in man is God's breathe which goes back to him at death. So, why do you still post contrary to the facts?

iamlamad said:

Remember that "God is a spirit." We are created in His image. We are spirit beings also. You will find this is truth when your heart stops, if you don't learn it sooner.

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Christ and doubting Thomas, God and the angels are quickening spirits. There's a difference between a ghost and a quickening spirit.

iamlamad said:

Why was Christ the first begotten from the dead? He was the VERY FIRST human to get a resurrection body. It is as simple as that. But He was only the FIRSTfruits. The bride of Christ, the righteous from the church will be the secondfruits, thirdfruits, etc. AS you know, Lazarus was risen from the dead before Jesus, but only risen back to a physical body.

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Your argument isn't immediate life after death? So, why are you now claiming life after resurrections?

iamlamad said:

"That great gulf is the lake of fire"

That is only conjecture. I thought you were not guilty of this. The bible does not tell us this, so you are only guessing.

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If it's a guess, it's a educated guess.

What other burning gulf is there in scripture and in heaven? DUH?

iamlamad said:

"the text doesn't say the same day Lazarus died he was in heaven"

The text COULD NOT say that, for NO ONE could ascend to heaven until JESUS did it first.

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I have no one to blame but myself. You're the one claiming immediate life after death, the separation of the spirit being from the fleshly body, no?

iamlamad said:

Nothing rises from the dead until the set resurrections.

Learn the truth: "death" is only separation. Physical death is separation of the spirit and soul from the physical body. Spiritual death is separation of a person from God. Eternal death is 1 +2, or someone in spiritual death and they dying physically. Our physical bodies are only our earth-suits or the house our spirits live in while on earth. They may turn to dust if Jesus tarries His coming long enough. The only thing that "rises" from death is our physical body or house. You are right; our flesh body will not rise until the time for resurrection. But just as Paul wrote, when my heart stops, I - the real me - my spirit and soul, will be present with Jesus in heaven.

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Then there would be no need of a resurrection. For the umpteenth time, the spirit that returns to God is God's breathe. Eze 37 proves it.

iamlamad said:

By now there are COUNTLESS stories and books of people who have died and went to heaven, but got sent back to their body because someone was praying. Have you read none of these books? OF COURSE they went to heaven, for they were born again. I have heard one of these testimonies with my own ears and spoke to the man who died and came back to tell. You could look him up if I could remember his name. We can believe these personal testimonies for they all agree with the truth of the Word of God.

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You and them are as real as the "miracle crusaders" touring and performing miracles all over the world.

iamlamad said:

Your "facts" then are only nonsense, not truth.

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You lack understanding. Prove my scriptures are false. Name one situation where I have provided scripture that weren't circumstantial to the facts.

precepts said:

Like I keep saying, it's not that you can't understand because you're not as ignorant as you would want me to think.

...

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I don't want you to think anything but the truth. However, it seems that is too difficult for you.

Where does it say that in scripture? It doesn't; which means, once again, you are "speculating."

What you call "speculating," is really "understanding." Did you not read what Jesus said, that NO ONE can enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again? NO ONE got into heaven until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead. Yet, they were very much alive in spirit and soul. (Soul sleep is fiction.) So WHERE WERE THEY - the righteous dead from Adam all the way to the Rich man and Lazarus? Of course, they all were exactly where Jesus said they were in His story of the rich man and Lazarus: in Hades.

Did you not read John 3?

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

AT that time NO ONE could ascend, because NO ONE was born again. No one could be born again until after Jesus' resurrection.

Here is where Jesus took the Rich man and Lazarus and all the rest, from Adam to Lazarus, from Hades up to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8
Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”

Here is where Jesus, IN HIS SPIRIT preached to those held captive in hades:


1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Note carefully they were SPIRITS. Not a breath, not a soul: they were SPIRITs. Please explain to us how these spirits could be held in Abraham's bosom if the human spirit is only a breath that returns to God. PRECONCEIVED glasses are getting in the way again. However, since the spirit and soul are tied tightly together, OF COURSE their souls were there with them. MEMORY is a part of the soul, and Abraham told the rich man to REMEMBER.

When people don't or can't understand, they think others speculate.

You are purposely posting fraudulent claims. There's no life after death until the resurrections, and the Lazarus parable was a resurrection. The gulf was the lake of fire.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

How did you get a lake of fire here? Did you just ad lib it? Oh, preconceived glasses strikes again! Jesus did not mention a lake of fire in this great gulf. Maybe it was just space - like a great canyon. We cannot say because Jesus did not say.

Next, this story of the rich man and Lazarus is about DEATH (separation of their spirit from their body) not about resurrection! How did you come up with "resurrection" here? Oh, preconceived glasses again.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


Read carefully: "the begger DIED." This is about DEATH, not resurrection. Now what happened AFTER death: He "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom." Not his body - his SPIRIT was carried by angels. WAKE UP! Your doctrines do not fit scripture! There is NO resurrection here! Abraham's bosom and where the rich man was, in fire, both were in HADES. ALL spirits from Adam to Jesus had to go there, for there was NO OTHER PLACE they could go. One side had fire and torment, the other side had peace.


Now read carefully: " the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes..."

Just as with the beggar, the rich man was also carried to hell. His body was in the grave, but his spirit was in hell.

This has been the normal teaching of the church for CENTURIES.

With all due respect, peoples opinions do not count as fact.

Benny Hinn claims to heal thousands, but the world doesn't believe him. So, who are those people who write books claiming life after death? Nobody.

With all due respect, Paul preaches HIS personal experiences and they became a part of our scripture!

6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’


If personal testimony agrees with the Word of God, why not listen or read? You could learn something.

Your argument isn't immediate life after death? So, why are you now claiming life after resurrections?

I guess you did not read: death is only SEPARATION: the spirit slips out of the body like taking off an overcoat. The soul keeps right on thinking and knowing and remembering, as if nothing happened. This is SCRIPTURE. It will be impossible for you to argue against truth of scripture. Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, AFTER His body was put in a grave. (Unless you think they left his body out for the buzzards.) "Life" for a human is forever. The spirit never dies. The soul stays with the spirit forever. Go back and study about the rich man and Lazarus again.


See! You do this purposely.

I know you know the story of Christ and doubting Thomas. You read Eze 37 where it says the spirit in man is God's breathe which goes back to him at death. So, why do you still post contrary to the facts?

I teach with a purpose, that is for sure, but in doing it, I know I am wasting my time attempting to teach you; I only teach for the readers.

You need to get your "facts" straight. Ezekiel 37 says nothing like that. Why do you take an Old Testament verse as truth where it is contradicted in the New Testament? If you wish to call what Solomon wrote a "fact," I will say that Jesus' TRUTH overides Solomon's facts. Do you imagine that Solomon knew more about this than God Himself? Remember, Jesus only spoke what He heard from the Father. I would take God's word over Solomon's any day of the week.


If it's a guess, it's a educated guess.

Ha ha ha! When I guess it is "speculating," but when you guess it is an educated guess. I know how this works. I did not just fall off a turnip truck.


What other burning gulf is there in scripture and in heaven? DUH?

Please show us any scripture of a "burning gulf." You are sure good at ad libing!

I have no one to blame but myself. You're the one claiming immediate life after death, the separation of the spirit being from the fleshly body, no?


The spirit or soul NEVER DIES. Only the house we live in, our flesh and blood body dies. After death, God sends the spirits either to heaven or hell. Before Christ, it was to Abraham's bosom or hell.


Then there would be no need of a resurrection. For the umpteenth time, the spirit that returns to God is God's breathe. Eze 37 proves it.


For the umpteenth time, go back and study Ezekiel 37. You are using the WRONG text. They study "spirit" in the New Testament to find out the truth.

OF COURSE we need a resurrection. Once our flesh and blood body dies, we become a spirit without a body. The resurrection gives the unembodied spirit a BODY again.

You lack understanding. Prove my scriptures are false. Name one situation where I have provided scripture that weren't circumstantial to the facts.

Your ego is far bigger than any scriptural proof you show. The truth is, everything you have attempted to prove has proven you wrong.

Daniel Martinovich said:

The word "general" resurrection is in there for a reason. There are lots of instances of dead bodies being raised back up. Some died later and others were raptured later. But you assertion that every dead body will be raised back up and that it is an event at the end of the world is baloney. Before you answer me you should read my article on it which starts with this paragraph.
Resurrection
The aim of this article is to show the meaning of the word resurrection through its contextual usage in the scripture. That fact that there is resurrection is not controversial amongst professing Christians. The what, when, where, and how's, are controversial. There will be five main points in this article to show that the word resurrection is used to describe different things; and that the meaning of those things are shown in the context of that particular scripture. This as opposed to the idea or "hermeneutic" that seeks to make resurrection a one time future event based on a small number of the scriptures on the subject. There is also no need to go into the Greek words for resurrection, arose, rise, raised ect ect. These are used interchangeably so often to describe the same events it renders it unnecessary. The five points in order will be:
1. That depending on the context of the verses the word resurrection is used to convey the idea that there is immediate life after death that includes a physical body. (Not physical as we know physical, but a physical body none the less.)
2. Again, depending on the context of those scriptures the word resurrection is used to convey the idea of a physical body dying and that same physical body miraculously restored to life as in the case of Lazarus.
3. Or, as the context dictates, that resurrection can mean a physical body dying and that same physical body being restored to life; but then also becoming a "glorified" body like Jesus. This would also include the case of one never dying first but getting a "glorified" body like Elijah.
4. Then resurrection depending on the context is used to describe those who are "dead" in sin yet physically alive, becoming "alive" to God or resurrected. In other words a "spiritual" resurrection that occurs while still in our body.
5. Finally, as the context dictates, a word or a vision of resurrection is used to teach the realities of points #1, #2, #3 or #4. Unfortunately though, like all words or visions from God; there is a natural tendency to interpret them as an event; rather than illustrative language or pictures to describe basic truth.

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I did not read your five points. Thanks for reposting them. I guess when someone is raised from the dead, back to a flesh and blood body, just as it was before death, could be called a "resurrection." However, it is not a resurrection to a resurrection body like Paul describes: a flesh and bone body.

When Jesus was resurrected, He was raised with a flesh and bone body, not a flesh and blood body. I see no scriptural proof of your theory that he had to go to heaven to get his resurrection body.

But you assertion that every dead body will be raised back up and that it is an event at the end of the world is baloney.

I disagree and John disagrees in the book of Revelation. There is a "first" or primary or chief resurrection where all the righteous are raised from a dead flesh and blood body (turned to dust) up a flesh and bone body that can walk through walls. It is a spiritual body. This first resurrection John wrote of comes in waves, with Jesus being the first, then the bride of Christ, then the 144,000, as firstfruits of the Hebrews, then the Old Testament saints.

Then, a thousand years later, all the unrighteous are raised with a resurrection body. However, John does not tell us if it will be the same kind of body the righteous get.

I disagree with your point 1, that the day of resurrection is immediately after death. The church has been waiting for this day for almost 2000 years. Did I not understand you?

I disagree with your point 2. I can find no scripture in the New Testament where "resurrection" is used when people were just brought back from the dead to the same body they had before.

Can you show us a verse for point 4?

iamlamad said:

Where does it say that in scripture? It doesn't; which means, once again, you are "speculating."

What you call "speculating," is really "understanding." Did you not read what Jesus said, that NO ONE can enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again? NO ONE got into heaven until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead. Yet, they were very much alive in spirit and soul. (Soul sleep is fiction.) So WHERE WERE THEY - the righteous dead from Adam all the way to the Rich man and Lazarus? Of course, they all were exactly where Jesus said they were in His story of the rich man and Lazarus: in Hades.

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Private interpretation is of the Devil. I can't make you accept the facts, but everything I have posted are scriptural facts. Ezekiel specifically state the spirit in man is God's breath; yet, you ignore the fact.

The one verse you are quoting, Christ visiting the prisoners in Hades, is a fabrication. There's no other verse in scripture to support anyone in Hell after death, except that one.

I consider you to be in the camp with all the false miracle working crusaders because you purposely ignore the facts to promote your false, private interpretations. That's why you ignore the facts, not because you don't understand, but that you have your agenda, which is evident by your games. True believers don't play petty games while preaching the gospel.

iamlamad said:

Did you not read John 3?

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

AT that time NO ONE could ascend, because NO ONE was born again. No one could be born again until after Jesus' resurrection.

Here is where Jesus took the Rich man and Lazarus and all the rest, from Adam to Lazarus, from Hades up to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8
Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”

Here is where Jesus, IN HIS SPIRIT preached to those held captive in hades:


1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

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Here is where you are adding to scripture.

iamlamad said:

Note carefully they were SPIRITS. Not a breath, not a soul: they were SPIRITs. Please explain to us how these spirits could be held in Abraham's bosom if the human spirit is only a breath that returns to God. PRECONCEIVED glasses are getting in the way again. However, since the spirit and soul are tied tightly together, OF COURSE their souls were there with them. MEMORY is a part of the soul, and Abraham told the rich man to REMEMBER.

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Look at how smart you are. So what about the Eze 37? You can't accept 1Pe, and deny Eze 37 and all the other verses referring to death as sleep, but that's how you do. You are void of understanding, one-sided.

iamlamad said:

When people don't or can't understand, they think others speculate.

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You don't even know what speculating is.

iamlamad said:

You are purposely posting fraudulent claims. There's no life after death until the resurrections, and the Lazarus parable was a resurrection. The gulf was the lake of fire.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

How did you get a lake of fire here? Did you just ad lib it? Oh, preconceived glasses strikes again! Jesus did not mention a lake of fire in this great gulf. Maybe it was just space - like a great canyon. We cannot say because Jesus did not say.

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You talk too much. Where's the rich man tormented?

iamlamad said:

Next, this story of the rich man and Lazarus is about DEATH (separation of their spirit from their body) not about resurrection! How did you come up with "resurrection" here? Oh, preconceived glasses again.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


Read carefully: "the begger DIED." This is about DEATH, not resurrection. Now what happened AFTER death: He "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom." Not his body - his SPIRIT was carried by angels. WAKE UP! Your doctrines do not fit scripture! There is NO resurrection here! Abraham's bosom and where the rich man was, in fire, both were in HADES. ALL spirits from Adam to Jesus had to go there, for there was NO OTHER PLACE they could go. One side had fire and torment, the other side had peace.

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Nobody's that stupid to think there's no resurrection involved in Lazarus and the rich man parable. Nobody!

iamlamad said:

Now read carefully: " the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes..."

Just as with the beggar, the rich man was also carried to hell. His body was in the grave, but his spirit was in hell.

This has been the normal teaching of the church for CENTURIES.

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There's no life after death until the resurrections, period.

iamlamad said:

With all due respect, peoples opinions do not count as fact.

Benny Hinn claims to heal thousands, but the world doesn't believe him. So, who are those people who write books claiming life after death? Nobody.

With all due respect, Paul preaches HIS personal experiences and they became a part of our scripture!

6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’


If personal testimony agrees with the Word of God, why not listen or read? You could learn something.

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Paul had the Holy Spirit. I don't what they have?

iamlamad said:

Your argument isn't immediate life after death? So, why are you now claiming life after resurrections?

I guess you did not read: death is only SEPARATION: the spirit slips out of the body like taking off an overcoat. The soul keeps right on thinking and knowing and remembering, as if nothing happened. This is SCRIPTURE.

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This is your false interpretation of scripture. Scripture and Christ himself said death is sleep. Sleepers aren't conscious of anything.

iamlamad said:

It will be impossible for you to argue against truth of scripture. Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, AFTER His body was put in a grave. (Unless you think they left his body out for the buzzards.) "Life" for a human is forever. The spirit never dies. The soul stays with the spirit forever. Go back and study about the rich man and Lazarus again.

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Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom by an Angel. Why? Because it was a resurrection. Lazarus didn't have a out of body, spirit floating up to heaven as an overcoat, experience. He was carried to heaven by an Angel, a resurrection. No floating up to heaven as a spirit or fairy.

iamlamad said:

See! You do this purposely.

I know you know the story of Christ and doubting Thomas. You read Eze 37 where it says the spirit in man is God's breathe which goes back to him at death. So, why do you still post contrary to the facts?

I teach with a purpose, that is for sure, but in doing it, I know I am wasting my time attempting to teach you; I only teach for the readers.

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You teach without accepting all the facts which is illogical.

iamlamad said:

You need to get your "facts" straight. Ezekiel 37 says nothing like that. Why do you take an Old Testament verse as truth where it is contradicted in the New Testament?

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Eze 37 teaches nothing like what? Eze 37 specifically states God's puts his spirit, his breath, into the dead souls, just like when Adam was formed out of the earth. God blew breath into Adam, and he became a living soul.

iamlamad said:

If you wish to call what Solomon wrote a "fact," I will say that Jesus' TRUTH overides Solomon's facts. Do you imagine that Solomon knew more about this than God Himself? Remember, Jesus only spoke what He heard from the Father. I would take God's word over Solomon's any day of the week.

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You keep bring up Solomon. When did I quote Solomon? Plus, Solomon being the wisest man, I doubt, would write anything erroneous.

Imagine you being so arrogant as to try to debase Solomon.

iamlamad said:

If it's a guess, it's an educated guess.

Ha ha ha! When I guess it is "speculating," but when you guess it is an educated guess. I know how this works. I did not just fall off a turnip truck.

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No, an educated guess uses circumstantial evidence. Your guesses are as good as a lottery ticket drawing. They have no logical explanation for your conclusions.

iamlamad said:

What other burning gulf is there in scripture and in heaven? DUH?

Please show us any scripture of a "burning gulf." You are sure good at ad libing!

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Where is the rich man being tormented?

iamlamad said:

I have no one to blame but myself. You're the one claiming immediate life after death, the separation of the spirit being from the fleshly body, no?


The spirit or soul NEVER DIES. Only the house we live in, our flesh and blood body dies. After death, God sends the spirits either to heaven or hell. Before Christ, it was to Abraham's bosom or hell.

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Regardless of the noted resurrections in scripture, the fact souls arise from the graves before they reach heaven, and despite the numerous verses quoting death as sleep. Wow!

iamlamad said:

Then there would be no need of a resurrection. For the umpteenth time, the spirit that returns to God is God's breathe. Eze 37 proves it.


For the umpteenth time, go back and study Ezekiel 37. You are using the WRONG text. They study "spirit" in the New Testament to find out the truth.

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Eze 37 is the putting back on the bones flesh and sinew. Where's the living souls that went back to heaven before this resurrection? You're talking folly. What is the spirit that brings them back to life if not God's spirit/breathe? You're not that simple.

iamlamad said:

OF COURSE we need a resurrection. Once our flesh and blood body dies, we become a spirit without a body. The resurrection gives the unembodied spirit a BODY again.

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So, the living spirits descend from heaven, or ascend from hell, to go back into their resurrected, corruptible, fleshly bodies to do what? To receive a new incorruptible [fleshly?] body to go back to heaven?

Iamlamad 21:45-61

iamlamad said:

You lack understanding. Prove my scriptures are false. Name one situation where I have provided scripture that weren't circumstantial to the facts.

Your ego is far bigger than any scriptural proof you show. The truth is, everything you have attempted to prove has proven you wrong.

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Facts can't be proven wrong. They can only be denied. Eze 37 is a fact along with all the other verses proving death is sleep. You can only deny them, not make them void, but nice dodge though!

You can never prove my scriptural facts aren't relevant. Now, say a couple of alleluias and have a nice day.

iamlamad said:

Some of this is truth, but some is nonsense, and UNSCRIPTURAL.

Matthew 27 reads...."the earth did quake...and the graves were opened."

If God does NOT resurrect our natural body and turn it into a flesh and bone body, Matthew would not have written "the graves were opened."

Paul wrote, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This is speaking of a PHYSICAL flesh and blood body being changed into a resurrection body of flesh and bone: no more blood. Does this writer imagine that the dead in Christ get something different?

The truth is, the graves WILL open and these flesh and blood bodies - even those turned to dust or turned onto ash and smoke, will come together again, perhaps on an Atomic level or perhaps on a Quark level, and form a new, resurrection body. This fact is PROVEN by the resurrected body of our Lord Jesus: he had the SAME BODY with the SAME NAIL HOLES, but no blood. He could eat a fish, then walk through a wall, and not leave fish on the wall.

Resurrection: definition:

"The rising of Jesus from the tomb after his death; a central and distinctive belief of the Christian faith. The Gospels state that after Jesus was crucified and lay in a tomb between Friday evening and Sunday morning, he rose, in body as well as in spirit, and appeared alive to his followers."

the action or fact of resurrecting or being resurrected.
"the story of the resurrection of Osiris"

• (in Christian belief) Christ's rising from the dead.
  noun: Resurrection; noun: the Resurrection
  
  
• (in Christian belief) the rising of the dead at the Last Judgment.
  noun: the Resurrection
  
  

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Looks valid to me.

Old Jack's opinion

Only a side issue, ie, no soul sleep, ie, bodies snooze in the grave however.

precepts said:

Private interpretation is of the Devil. I can't make you accept the facts, but everything I have posted are scriptural facts. Ezekiel specifically state the spirit in man is God's breath; yet, you ignore the fact.

The one verse you are quoting, Christ visiting the prisoners in Hades, is a fabrication. There's no other verse in scripture to support anyone in Hell after death, except that one.

I consider you to be in the camp with all the false miracle working crusaders because you purposely ignore the facts to promote your false, private interpretations. That's why you ignore the facts, not because you don't understand, but that you have your agenda, which is evident by your games. True believers don't play petty games while preaching the gospel.



Here is where you are adding to scripture.



Look at how smart you are. So what about the Eze 37? You can't accept 1Pe, and deny Eze 37 and all the other verses referring to death as sleep, but that's how you do. You are void of understanding, one-sided.



You don't even know what speculating is.


You talk too much. Where's the rich man tormented?



Nobody's that stupid to think there's no resurrection involved in Lazarus and the rich man parable. Nobody!



There's no life after death until the resurrections, period.



Paul had the Holy Spirit. I don't what they have?



This is your false interpretation of scripture. Scripture and Christ himself said death is sleep. Sleepers aren't conscious of anything.




Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom by an Angel. Why? Because it was a resurrection. Lazarus didn't have a out of body, spirit floating up to heaven as an overcoat, experience. He was carried to heaven by an Angel, a resurrection. No floating up to heaven as a spirit or fairy.




You teach without accepting all the facts which is illogical.



Eze 37 teaches nothing like what? Eze 37 specifically states God's puts his spirit, his breath, into the dead souls, just like when Adam was formed out of the earth. God blew breath into Adam, and he became a living soul.



You keep bring up Solomon. When did I quote Solomon? Plus, Solomon being the wisest man, I doubt, would write anything erroneous.

Imagine you being so arrogant as to try to debase Solomon.




No, an educated guess uses circumstantial evidence. Your guesses are as good as a lottery ticket drawing. They have no logical explanation for your conclusions.




Where is the rich man being tormented?



Regardless of the noted resurrections in scripture, the fact souls arise from the graves before they reach heaven, and despite the numerous verses quoting death as sleep. Wow!



Eze 37 is the putting back on the bones flesh and sinew. Where's the living souls that went back to heaven before this resurrection? You're talking folly. What is the spirit that brings them back to life if not God's spirit/breathe? You're not that simple.



So, the living spirits descend from heaven, or ascend from hell, to go back into their resurrected, corruptible, fleshly bodies to do what? To receive a new incorruptible [fleshly?] body to go back to heaven?

Iamlamad 21:45-61


Facts can't be proven wrong. They can only be denied. Eze 37 is a fact along with all the other verses proving death is sleep. You can only deny them, not make them void, but nice dodge though!

You can never prove my scriptural facts aren't relevant. Now, say a couple of alleluias and have a nice day.

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Since you THINK you know it all, there is no sense in going any further. The moment your heart stops and you come out of your body, you will realize the truth.

iamlamad said:

Since you THINK you know it all, there is no sense in going any further. The moment your heart stops and you come out of your body, you will realize the truth.

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I am confused, iamlamad. I thought you were the know it all?

iamlamad said:

Since you THINK you know it all, there is no sense in going any further. The moment your heart stops and you come out of your body, you will realize the truth.

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You are not genuine.

Three interesting points that prove you wrong:

- Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom by an Angel. Why? Because it was a resurrection. Lazarus didn't have a out of body, spirit floating up to heaven as an overcoat, experience. He was carried to heaven by an Angel, a resurrection. No floating up to heaven as a spirit or fairy.
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- Eze 37 teaches nothing like what? Eze 37 specifically states God's puts his spirit, his breath, into the dead souls, just like when Adam was formed out of the earth. God blew breath into Adam, and he became a living soul.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- So, the living spirits descend from heaven or ascend from hell to go back into their resurrected, corruptible, fleshly bodies to do what? To receive a new incorruptible [fleshly?] body to go back to heaven?

Iamlamad 21:45-61

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iamlamad said:

YOU will have to figure out the answers to those questions yourself. I will give you a strong hint: if you find something different in the New Testament, use it for your doctrine, NOT what was found in those books you mentioned. For example, do a study of "spirit" and "soul" in the New Testament and compare with what Solomon taught.

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well I knew you'd refuse to answer the questions and the reasons are all too obvious..........

God is not the author of confusion, he inspired Solomon to write those books, it's God's truth, not that of Solomon...........
Christ told satan when he was tempted that man shall live by EVERY WORD from God, you added the clause : except for those books mentioned

.....and you are now implying that the NT contradicts the OT writings on this subject, the truth is that the contradiction comes only from your false doctrine and misunderstandings.........it seems the more you speak the deeper the hole gets