Are gay rights a civil rights issue?

StephanieSomer said:

So, if your conscience is good enough for YOUR behavior, why is it inconceivable that someone else's conscience is good enough for theirs? And, if conscience is enough to allow or disallow a behavior, then gays DO have their right to be married. Of course, you are entitled to refuse to condone it. But, do you have the "right" to forbid it?

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First, I cannot change people, and I do not have the right to forbid anything. Period. I can't tell people what they can and cannot do. Period.

It's really hard for me to bring conscience into here without becoming theological so I will refrain.

1000Flames said:

Oh yes, because Slavery, the oppression of women, the near genocide of Native Americans....that wasn't enough to get our "forthcoming."

Nope, the gays. That's gonna do it. If you ever wonder why people don't take your views seriously, here is a good example.

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I completely agree that those above examples are horrible and evil, and by no means should they ever have happened.

RileyG said:

First, I cannot change people, and I do not have the right to forbid anything. Period. I can't tell people what they can and cannot do. Period.

It's really hard for me to bring conscience into here without becoming theological so I will refrain.

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I do want you to know that I am in agreement with you over the Biblical morality regarding this issue. But, I also recognize that God puts into place the powers that be and we are commanded to obey them. If the power that exists in this country is regulated by the Constitution, then I must abide by its' provisions. And I cannot call the "rights" that exist currently as regards to gays as equal to the laws which regard heteros. Yet, the Constitution does guarantee equal rights. In light of that, I have no right or authority to deny them full equality with all rights enjoyed by everyone else. No one has that right or authority, under the Constitution.

StephanieSomer said:

I do want you to know that I am in agreement with you over the Biblical morality regarding this issue. But, I also recognize that God puts into place the powers that be and we are commanded to obey them. If the power that exists in this country is regulated by the Constitution, then I must abide by its' provisions. And I cannot call the "rights" that exist currently as regards to gays as equal to the laws which regard heteros. Yet, the Constitution does guarantee equal rights. In light of that, I have no right or authority to deny them full equality with all rights enjoyed by everyone else. No one has that right or authority, under the Constitution.

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Thank You for your answering.

vincenticus said:

Naw, just confirms to me that you are using the same nonsense that was tried in previous centuries by people straining for relevance as the world passes them by.

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Straining for relevance? Naw, I’m not an Alfred the Great, Alexander the Great, Ramesses, Cesar, Roosevelt, Churchill, or anyone else important. I’m just a Joe Nobody, and in 300 years, no one will know or care anything about me.

He is Risen 72 said:

All the more reason not to, don’t you think?

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No, it's all the more reason to question the doctrine of Hell and whether it speaks to a benevolent or malevolent deity.

ALoveDivine said:

Thankfully I think it is very likely that the GOP will win the senate, and we stand a good chance of having a Republican in the White House in 2016. Why? Because Obama couldn't be more of a dismal and pathetic failure if he tried.

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Keep dreaming. In case you were sleeping for 8 years, the Republican President before Obama was also a dismal and pathetic failure, and considering how much of a failure Obama is, the Republican who ran against him couldn't even get rid of him.

The GOP isn't very good at winning elections. Mainly because they pander to the religious conservative crowd, and nobody wants them in power except themselves.

He is Risen 72 said:

Everything a Christian needs to know about homosexual marriage is contained in the Holy Bible. Any form of Homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord, including homosexual marriage, now if the individual states want to be Babylon and call it a civil right, then so be it. Their reward will be forthcoming.

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Wearing mixed fabrics is also an abomination. There are numerous abominations you personally ignore in the Holy Bible. How convenient for you.

(Ignoring the fact that abomination is a gross mistranslation in the KJV).

He is Risen 72 said:

I hope they enjoy to the fullest the sixty or so years they are together in life, they will be able to look back and remember the good old days during an eternity of punishment.

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Judging others also will lead you to an eternity of punishment. Perhaps you should be careful about your judging.

RileyG said:

So? The Government cannot be above my conscience.

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Your conscience has no bearing on what the law says. And the law says marriage is a fundamental civil right. End of discussion.

All I can do is just follow my conscience, that does not make me a "homophobe", or "bigot" or "hater". period

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Well, I would argue your conscience is quite misguided and has been manipulated by ignorant pastors and Christians who use God and the Bible to justify bigotry. But that's another matter.

Marius27 said:

Wearing mixed fabrics is also an abomination. There are numerous abominations you personally ignore in the Holy Bible. How convenient for you.

(Ignoring the fact that abomination is a gross mistranslation in the KJV).

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It would be a very interesting exercise to list each and every verse which declares something to be an abomination and see just how most "Christians" would fare. My guess is that it would exceed the posting limits set by the site. Several dozen different verses come to mind that I can guarantee well over half of the people on this board have transgressed, and justified it to themselves while they continue to punish others with their condemnations.

Is it any wonder why Christ's anger, whenever it was displayed in the Scriptures was always aimed at the religious leaders?

Marius27 said:

Wearing mixed fabrics is also an abomination. There are numerous abominations you personally ignore in the Holy Bible. How convenient for you.

(Ignoring the fact that abomination is a gross mistranslation in the KJV).

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Well, its summertime where I’m at and hot and humid, so I’m not wearing any wool, and I can’t afford linen anything, so I think I’m good to go there.

He is Risen 72 said:

Everything a Christian needs to know about homosexual marriage is contained in the Holy Bible. Any form of Homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord, including homosexual marriage, now if the individual states want to be Babylon and call it a civil right, then so be it. Their reward will be forthcoming.

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Actually, the rewards are already coming in.

Gay marriage boosts NYC's economy by $259 million in first year - Jul. 24, 2012

Same-Sex Marriage Good for Wedding Business

8 Ways Legalizing Same Sex Marriage Is Good For The Economy

But that's not what you meant, is it?

Given the choice of real economic growth or your veiled threat, I suspect the growth will be more appealing.

RileyG said:

This is going to sound extremely circular...

Can two gay brothers who are sexually attracted to each other get married?

Can two lesbian sisters who are sexually attracted to each other get married?

[No, I am NOT saying that ALL SSA people experience incest..I'm just saying it's possible]

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I'm always curious as to why it's the religious minds that always seem to make a beeline to incest whenever the SSM issue comes up -- Lot's daughters, perhaps?

In any case, perhaps you could explain what federal or state benefits would be extended to them through marriage that they didn't already have by being blood relatives?

Any? Any at all?

There's literally zero chance of reproduction.

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I didn't realize that marriage was a privilege extended only to the fertile.... on the other hand, there's that trendy thing called "adoption." Maybe it'll catch on?

TLK Valentine said:

Actually, the rewards are already coming in.

Gay marriage boosts NYC's economy by $259 million in first year - Jul. 24, 2012

Same-Sex Marriage Good for Wedding Business

8 Ways Legalizing Same Sex Marriage Is Good For The Economy

But that's not what you meant, is it?

Given the choice of real economic growth or your veiled threat, I suspect the growth will be more appealing.

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You know, having a pedophile children’s petting park would also generate money for the economy.

He is Risen 72 said:

You know, having a pedophile children’s petting park would also generate money for the economy.

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a) conflate homosexuality with paedophilia
b) silly strawman
c) grammatical error ("pedophile children’s")
d) baseless claim

is that a bingo?

He is Risen 72 said:

I hope they enjoy to the fullest the sixty or so years they are together in life, they will be able to look back and remember the good old days during an eternity of punishment.

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You think not letting gays' union be recognised civilly is going to stop them living together and having a relationship?

RileyG said:

This is going to sound extremely circular...

Can two gay brothers who are sexually attracted to each other get married?

Can two lesbian sisters who are sexually attracted to each other get married?

[No, I am NOT saying that ALL SSA people experience incest..I'm just saying it's possible]

There's literally zero chance of reproduction.

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Well, personally, I don't believe informed adult consent can exist in an incestuous relationship, since onemember is always dominant. But I concede that's an arguable point. But hey, let's go the whole way here. Assuming informed adult consent, why shouldn't incestuous couples be allowed to marry? Sure, the ick factor is off the scale, but other than that, first generation incest has about the same chance of resulting in birth defects as any other couple having children after 40, and we don't dissallow that.

As for reproduction as a whole, we allow other infertile and couples with no desire for children to marry, my wife and among them. Our daughter was 6 when we were married, and we have been told that a second pregnancy would kill my wife. To you're mind, should our wedding have been allowed?

So glad God isn't lust.

Armoured said:

a) conflate homosexuality with paedophilia
b) silly strawman
c) grammatical error ("pedophile children’s")
d) baseless claim

is that a bingo?

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I wasn’t comparing homosexuality to pedophilia. Surprisingly, I do acknowledge that 99.9999% of pedophiles are heterosexuals, that homosexuality does not lead to pedophilia and vice versa, and that homosexuals are just as appalled by the actions of pedophiles as everyone else.

The original phrase was going to be children’s pedophile petting park, probably should have stuck with that one.

The response was in regards to raising money for the economy. In other words, if raising money for the economy is the only thing that matters, then let’s do it, no holds barred.