Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

RevelationTestament · Aug 27, 2014

CherubRam said:
Isa. 9:6 is not translated correctly.

I have read it in the Hebrew, and it is close enough. I don't think I could do better.

We are also called to be one with the Father through Christ.

Yes. Many are called, but few are chosen.

The word "one" is being used to mean "unity."

As I read Genesis, Deut, Ps, and John this unity is Elohim, also translated as God, but I read it as "family of stone."

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

Endure2TheEnd said:
I can claim in the Judaism of the disciples of Christ, Christ is God. The faith of the Apostles, was faith in the incarnate Logos, Jesus, who is God. (See John 1:1)
You cant expect anyone to take your word for it, mentioning "in Judaism" countless times.
The Basic faith of the Apostle John, and the rest of the Apostles: the Trinitarian belief... (I don't expect you to take my word for it)

Okay, onto the meat of what you claimed:

He does state that besides him there is no other God. It is also written:
"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. (Isaiah 43:11)
By your logic, Jesus is not savior.
However Jesus is savior.
"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13)

If it is true that only God is our savior,
and if it is true that Jesus is our savior,
then it follows that Jesus is God.

If it can be said only the the Lord in Isaiah 43:11 is savior, and Jesus is savior, the apparent nullifying of the possibility that Jesus is God, is void.

The Father is alone God, and "The Redeemer, and King, and Alpha and Omega"... but so is Jesus.
How does one reconcile this?

Jesus is of the Father, the Word, who has proceeded forth from the Father, carrying the same essence, and fullness of deity:

"I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."(John 16:28)
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"(Colossians 2:9)

I want to elaborate on one point, he came out of the Father, having been born of him. He is not merely the Son of God in the sense that he was born of the Virgin Mary, he is the Son of God in the sense that he is the image of God, the Light, and Word who proceeds forth the the Father. He was not merely a being created outside of God, but rather he is a one who came out of God the Father.
The word used in John 16:28, for "came forth" is: ἐξῆλθον, which is not merely coming from, having been next to, but rather, coming from within, going out.
He eternally existed with the Father, proceeding forth from him.

So, whenever "God alone" has some property, such as being savior, which appears in the text, my point is, it does not exclude the Begotten God, Christ, from sharing the exact same properties, and in no way contradicts the fact that only God has such a property.

I suppose by that reasoning, Jesus is God, or at least "god" since he has life immortal.

I dont recall reading a verse in the New Testament in which Christ directs people only worship the Father and not the Son or the Holy Spirit. He never said, "worship The Father only and not me".

Is it wrong of me to worship Jesus?
If it is wrong for me to do so, why is it permitted by Jesus himself, when he is worshiped in the NT?
"And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."(John 9:38)
"And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."(Matthew 28:9)
Apparently even the Father is fine with even "angels" (or special messengers as you may say), to worship the Son.

"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."Hebrews 1:6

Hebrews 1:6 is a quote from this text in Psalms 97.

Psalm 97 commentary.

Psalm 97 before the Christian era.

Psalm 97
5. The mountains melt like wax before Yahwah, before Yahwah of all the earth.
6. The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the people see His glory.
7. All who worship images and those who boast in idols are put to shame, worship Him, all you gods!
8. Zion hears and rejoices and the villages of Judah are glad because of your judgments, Yahwah.

Worship only Yahwah

Deuteronomy 6:13
Fear( the Lord / Yahwah) your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.

1 Samuel 7:3
So Samuel said to all the Israelites, If you are returning to the Lord with all your hearts, then rid yourselves of the foreign gods and the Ashtoreths and commit yourselves to (the Lord / Yahwah) and serve him only, and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines.

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God, and serve him only.

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, It is written: Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God and serve him only.

John 5:41 I do not accept praise from men.

Different translations.
John 5:41 I dont need [or accept; receive] praise [glory; honor] from [men; people.]

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
And Christ is YHWH. Christ also has immortality, and the Father has granted to him to have Life in himself. So if your interpretation is correct and none other can become God, how then will Christ inherit YHWH's holy mountains, and be called the Eternal Father? Isa. 9:6? Is He a new God or one with God?

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader /minister .” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading / ministering."

The other alternate Hebrew words used for PRINCE are these.
#5592 NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times.
#5618 NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times.
#5687 NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times.
#5817 NASIYK (PRINCE-S) 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bibles, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is how that verse should read.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace. )

If you run that Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”

Near · Aug 27, 2014

CherubRam said:
Hebrews 1:6 is a quote from this text in Psalms 97.

Psalm 97 commentary.

Psalm 97 before the Christian era.

Psalm 97
5. The mountains melt like wax before Yahwah, before Yahwah of all the earth.
6. The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the people see His glory.
7. All who worship images and those who boast in idols are put to shame, worship Him, all you gods!
8. Zion hears and rejoices and the villages of Judah are glad because of your judgments, Yahwah.

Worship only Yahwah

Deuteronomy 6:13
Fear( the Lord / Yahwah) your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.

1 Samuel 7:3
So Samuel said to all the Israelites, “If you are returning to the Lord with all your hearts, then rid yourselves of the foreign gods and the Ashtoreths and commit yourselves to (the Lord / Yahwah) and serve him only, and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines.”

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God, and serve him only.’”

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God and serve him only.’”

John 5:41 “I do not accept praise from men.

Different translations.
John 5:41 “I don’t need [or accept; receive] praise [glory; honor] from [men; people.]

CherubRam said:
Hebrews 1:6 is a quote from this text in Psalms 97.

No, actually, it's a quote from Deuteronomy 32:43... but not the Masoretic Text, but rather The Septuagint.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Although Hebrews 1:6 is using OT material, that doesn't exclude the fact that it literally says:
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”"Hebrews 1:6

Are you trying to say, "oh, it says that but it's a quote, so it doesn't actually mean what it says."

As for only worshiping the Lord (Jesus)... what seems to be the problem?

I thought your usage of the following needed to be addressed:

John 5:41 “I do not accept praise from men.
Different translations.
John 5:41 “I don’t need [or accept; receive] praise [glory; honor] from [men; people.]

The context is not that he is rejecting praise, or honor. The context is that he's not doing what he is doing in order to receive glory from mere men. He's not doing it for the sake of applause.

I point to John 5:23 to make this clearer:

"so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

He doesnt have a problem with praise from men, infact, if you arent honoring the Son, you arent honoring the Father.

I've made other good points in my previous post which you didn't address, I'll remind you those arguments are still standing, even if they are ignored. (Here's the link to my previous post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7826207-60/#post66231583)

As for serving only THE LORD:

"knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve."(Colossians 3:24)

I do serve the Lord only, and it is the Lord Christ who I serve.

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

Endure2TheEnd said:
No, actually, it's a quote from Deuteronomy 32:43... but not the Masoretic Text, but rather The Septuagint.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Although Hebrews 1:6 is using OT material, that doesn't exclude the fact that it literally says:
"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."Hebrews 1:6

Are you trying to say, "oh, it says that but it's a quote, so it doesn't actually mean what it says."

As for only worshiping the Lord (Jesus)... what seems to be the problem?

I thought your usage of the following needed to be addressed:

The context is not that he is rejecting praise, or honor. The context is that he's not doing what he is doing in order to receive glory from mere men. He's not doing it for the sake of applause.

I point to John 5:23 to make this clearer:

"so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

He doesnt have a problem with praise from men, infact, if you arent honoring the Son, you arent honoring the Father.

I've made other good points in my previous post which you didn't address, I'll remind you those arguments are still standing, even if they are ignored. (Here's the link to my previous post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7826207-60/#post66231583)

As for serving only THE LORD:

"knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve."(Colossians 3:24)

I do serve the Lord only, and it is the Lord Christ who I serve.

I hear Christians say: I don't care who Yahwah is, I only want to worship Jesus. Christ did not come to be worshiped or praised, he came to direct worship and praise to the Father.

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

Deuteronomy 32:43

New International Version (NIV)

43
Rejoice, you nations, with his people,[a]
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.

Footnotes:
a.Deuteronomy 32:43 Or Make his people rejoice, you nations
b.Deuteronomy 32:43 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) people, / and let all the angels worship him, /

Deuteronomy 32:43

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

43
Rejoice, you nations, concerning His people,[a]
for He will avenge the blood of His servants.
He will take vengeance on His adversaries;[c]
He will purify His land and His people.[d]

Footnotes:
a.Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX reads Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the sons of God worship Him; rejoice, you nations, with His people, and let all the angels of God strengthen themselves in Him; DSS read Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the angels worship Him; Heb 1:6
b.Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX read sons
c.Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX add and He will recompense those who hate Him; v. 41
d.Deuteronomy 32:43 Syr, Tg; DSS, Sam, LXX, Vg read His peoples land

IchoozJC · Aug 27, 2014

CherubRam said:
I hear Christians say: I don't care who Yahwah is, I only want to worship Jesus. Christ did not come to be worshiped or praised, he came to direct worship and praise to the Father.

You've heard that, eh? From Christians, no less. I challenge you to back up your claim with just ONE (1) quote from a Christian that has said what you claim. Convenient for you is that we are on a predominantly orthodox christian website containing hundreds of thousands of digitally archived quotes. You should have no problem backing up your claim.

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

Psalm 97

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Psalm 97:7
All who serve carved images,
those who boast in idols, will be put to shame.
All the gods[a] must worship Him.

Footnotes:
a. Psalm 97:7 LXX, Syr read All His angels; Heb 1:6

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

IchoozJC said:
You've heard that, eh? From Christians, no less. I challenge you to back up your claim with just ONE (1) quote from a Christian that has said what you claim. Convenient for you is that we are on a predominantly orthodox christian website containing hundreds of thousands of digitally archived quotes. You should have no problem backing up your claim.

It is a violation of the rules and not proper to name the persons. I think that they don't believe that Christ is not the Father also.

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

CherubRam said:
Deuteronomy 32:43

New International Version (NIV)

43
Rejoice, you nations, with his people,[a]
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.

Footnotes:
a.Deuteronomy 32:43 Or Make his people rejoice, you nations
b.Deuteronomy 32:43 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) people, / and let all the angels worship him, /

Deuteronomy 32:43

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

43
Rejoice, you nations, concerning His people,[a]
for He will avenge the blood of His servants.
He will take vengeance on His adversaries;[c]
He will purify His land and His people.[d]

Footnotes:
a.Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX reads Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the sons of God worship Him; rejoice, you nations, with His people, and let all the angels of God strengthen themselves in Him; DSS read Rejoice, you heavens, along with Him, and let all the angels worship Him; Heb 1:6
b.Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX read sons
c.Deuteronomy 32:43 DSS, LXX add and He will recompense those who hate Him; v. 41
d.Deuteronomy 32:43 Syr, Tg; DSS, Sam, LXX, Vg read His peoples land

CherubRam said:

Psalm 97

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Psalm 97:7
All who serve carved images,
those who boast in idols, will be put to shame.
All the gods[a] must worship Him.

Footnotes:
a. Psalm 97:7 LXX, Syr read All His angels; Heb 1:6

Click to expand...

As you can see there is a problem.

IchoozJC · Aug 27, 2014

CherubRam said:
It is a violation of the rules and not proper to name the persons. I think that they don't believe that Christ is not the Father also.

Who said you had to name the person? Just quote anonymously someone saying what you claim. Or find something on the internet. Just one quote. Shouldn't be hard. You probably hear it every day right?

Near · Aug 27, 2014

CherubRam said:
I hear Christians say: I don't care who Yahwah is, I only want to worship Jesus. Christ did not come to be worshiped or praised, he came to direct worship and praise to the Father.

Irrelevant. I don't even see why you replied to my post. You ought to have made it a standalone post.

The facts remain. Jesus is Lord, and is to be served as well as worshiped.
Christ's advent may not have been for the purpose of receiving applause from men, but that doesn't mean we don't honor the Son.

John 12:12-15 NKJV

The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord ! The King of Israel! Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written: Fear not, daughter of Zion; Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkeys colt.

Gibs · Aug 27, 2014

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

IchoozJC said:
Who said you had to name the person? Just quote anonymously someone saying what you claim. Or find something on the internet. Just one quote. Shouldn't be hard. You probably hear it every day right?

These are persons whom I have known personally. So the answer is, No.

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

Endure2TheEnd said:
Irrelevant. I don't even see why you replied to my post. You ought to have made it a standalone post.

The facts remain. Jesus is Lord, and is to be served as well as worshiped.
Christ's advent may not have been for the purpose of receiving applause from men, but that doesn't mean we don't honor the Son.

John 12:12-15 NKJV

The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord ! The King of Israel! Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written: Fear not, daughter of Zion; Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkeys colt.

You can worship Christ, but that is not what he came here for. Christ said worship and pray to Yahwah only. That is good enough for me.

Near · Aug 27, 2014

CherubRam said:
You can worship Christ, but that is not what he came here for. Christ said worship and pray to Yahwah only. That is good enough for me.

God the Father wants us to worship the Son. Furthermore, a question should be posed...

Was Yahweh ever seen in the Old Testament?

CherubRam · Aug 27, 2014

Endure2TheEnd said:
God the Father wants us to worship the Son. Furthermore, a question should be posed...

Was Yahweh ever seen in the Old Testament?

You tell me?

Exodus 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

CherubRam · Aug 28, 2014

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

a god.

RevelationTestament · Aug 28, 2014

CherubRam said:
This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader /minister .” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading / ministering."

The other alternate Hebrew words used for PRINCE are these.
#5592 NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times.
#5618 NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times.
#5687 NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times.
#5817 NASIYK (PRINCE-S) 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bibles, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is how that verse should read.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace.

If you run that Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”

I fail to see how this has any bearing on what I said. How does changing Prince to minister change His inheritance? He still inherits the name or title of the Father, and the government over the people from the Father.
This is what I said:

Originally Posted by RevelationTestament
And Christ is YHWH. Christ also has immortality, and the Father has granted to him to have Life in himself. So if your interpretaternal tion is correct and none other can become God, how then will Christ inherit YHWH's holy mountains, and be called the Eternal Father? Isa. 9:6? Is He a new God or one with God?

When His inheritance comes in, will He be a new God?

Near · Aug 28, 2014

CherubRam said:
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

a god.

So, you don't know?

Secondly, according to your theology, is Jesus a created being?

Thirdly, Jesus is a god? I thought you believed in monotheism?

Yet you're saying Jesus is a god and the Father is another?

Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

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