Question about the LGBT Community

poolerboy0077 said:

Why's that?

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I don't believe in God for one. That being said, if I were to assume that God does exist to be blamable...

I also take the position that I don't think that God would be purposely creating people with terrible defects like we sometimes get. What would be the purpose, for example, of a baby developing without a brain? The baby has no chance of survival, so it seems rather pointless to me.

Therefore, I am left with the position that God has nothing to do with the individual development of each person.

LittleQin said:

Not accusing you of blasphemy my friend. Sorry if it sounded that way.

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No worries. I just wanted to be clear.

I agree with your statement. One can compare nature to a computer program. Sometimes there are memory leaks and 'bugs' in a computer program that cause malfunctions. Nature produces many birth defects etc.

But since God is the programmer, his 'software' should be 'prefect' right? Could these imperfections be experiments?

God gives us allot to study doesn't he? Perhaps we aren't even ready for the answers to these questions. Maybe we need to become much more spiritually advanced to read his 'source code'.

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I can't say I'd be qualified to answer those.

However, I would tend to doubt they are experiments. Assuming God is perfect, I would expect to not see fatal experiments going on (like the one in my previous post above). God would also be aware that many of the people created, if we were experiments, are suffering as a result of them.

This is why I, assuming God exists, don't think that He is involved with the individual development of people. Nature, I believe, is left to her own devices on this one and, since nature lacks any direction, things just happen. Sometimes those things are good and sometimes they are bad.

I apologize for having come into this conversation late.

While it is true that every so often, someone is born with strange or unnatural contortions of genitalia, I believe that we ought to follow the gender that we were born with, or in these cases, the majority gender.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Genesis 1:27 ESV

"He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female," Matthew 19:4 ESV

Personally, I believe that transsexual, or males who identify as women go against the way God intended them to be, and as such, sin against his will.

However, I wish to point out that this does not give us Christians leeway to condemn them for their actions.

Jesus tells us to love. So I will love my neighbor.

However, if a transgendered or transsexual individual by the power of the Spirit seeks out the Kingdom of Heaven, and Christ, there MUST come a time when he/she/it is informed of [their] sinfulness. If he/she/it seeks to remain in sin without turning and repenting, well, then we must wipe the dust off our feet (Matthew 10:14-15).

We should not condemn, but love, and if Christ is sought, gently rebuke and forgive.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 ESV

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10-12

Transgendered/transsexual individuals must repent of their iniquities, much as I must. I am no better than them, and they are no better than me.

We are all equally unworthy in the eyes of God, but made worthy in the suffering and pain of our Lord Jesus on the Cross, and in His glorious Resurrection three days late.

VDMA said:

While it is true that every so often, someone is born with strange or unnatural contortions of genitalia, I believe that we ought to follow the gender that we were born with, or in these cases, the majority gender.

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What defines the "majority gender" you speak of? The obvious physical appearance? Chromosomes? Are we not more than the sum of our parts?

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Genesis 1:27 ESV

"He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female," Matthew 19:4 ESV

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A bit tongue in cheek (please take no offense), but I was born physically male and mentally female, so was I not made male and female?

But this goes back to other points that I've made above. I really doubt God would intentionally make us with the variety of physical defects that humans are born with, especially since some of them lead to death in the very short term.

Cute Tink said:

A bit tongue in cheek (please take no offense), but I was born physically male and mentally female, so was I not made male and female?

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None taken.

Personally, (please take no offense), as a Christian, I vehemently deny that you were born mentally female, and consider it the work of Satan to turn you from God. As a Christian (again no offense), I would personally urge you to seek self discipline, and to deny Satan his fun, and to live as God physically intended you to (as a male).

As for the physical birth defects, as someone who was born with pectus excavatum and Supraventricular Tachycardia, I don't see how the argument about birth defects should affect this discussion.

VDMA said:

None taken.

Personally, (please take no offense), as a Christian, I vehemently deny that you were born mentally female, and consider it the work of Satan to turn you from God. As a Christian (again no offense), I would personally urge you to seek self discipline, and to deny Satan his fun, and to live as God physically intended you to (as a male).

As for the physical birth defects, as someone who was born with pectus excavatum and Supraventricular Tachycardia, I don't see how the argument about birth defects should affect this discussion.

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Glad we can both have a sense of humor about this.

Whether or not it is the work of Satan, it has convinced the medical community (and studies continue to corroborate this) that it is real and it is a medical condition along the lines as I've stated.

The reason that I make the notes about birth defects is because they are a fact of life. There are a variety of them and I take that as evidence that there is no perfect God influencing individual development, including whether someone will be born male or female (because even that gets messed up for some people).

For the record, I did try living as male and I had every reason to continue to do so. However, there came a time when it was no longer possible for me and frankly was not natural for me. Take that as you will, but there's only so much pretending that I can do.

An identity issue is not enough to clear them of wrongdoing because our genetics determine whether we are male or female and we cannot change this. Any attempt is simply cosmetic because we cannot change our genes. In super rare cases they may be born with both male and female chromosomes and I wouldn't know how to handle that.

football5680 said:

An identity issue is not enough to clear them of wrongdoing because our genetics determine whether we are male or female and we cannot change this. Any attempt is simply cosmetic because we cannot change our genes. In super rare cases they may be born with both male and female chromosomes and I wouldn't know how to handle that.

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There are a variety of different chromosomal variations. Whether they are "super rare" I'm not sure, but ...

Klinefelter syndrome has been reported to be between 1 in 500 and 1 in 1000 male births.

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Source

That is just one and not what I would classify as "super rare".

There are also conditions where the individual is immune to the hormones produced by their own bodies, see Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

Then there's the intersex people.

Genetics do some, but not all of determining how our bodies look. Considering the fact that you do not know the genetics of any person upon meeting them, it doesn't strike me as likely that you actually base anything on the genetics of a person, but rather assume the genetics of a person you meet.

Marius27 said:

Being transgender isn't a sin. Only ignorant conservatives make such a claim.

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Name a couple well-known ones for us (because I've never heard that ^ said--and I actually know Conservatives and know what "claims" they make).

VDMA said:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Genesis 1:27 ESV

"He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female," Matthew 19:4 ESV

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Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Personally, I believe that transsexual, or males who identify as women go against the way God intended them to be, and as such, sin against his will.

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And you would be wrong. Being transsexual can be a life and death situation. Sometimes transitioning is the only thing that can save someone.

Albion said:

Name a couple well-known ones for us (because I've never heard that ^ said--and I actually know Conservatives and know what "claims" they make).

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Several on this forum have made such comments. Obviously calling them out would be against the rules. However, you can see a poster above you who calls it a sin.

Marius27 said:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


And you would be wrong. Being transsexual can be a life and death situation. Sometimes transitioning is the only thing that can save someone.

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Agreed. The rate of suicide among many in the trans community is too high...makes me sad. Mostly stems from those (religious folk mostly) who would tell them that they are made the way they are and to defer from that is a sin/abomination.

Marius27 said:

Several on this forum have made such comments. Obviously calling them out would be against the rules. However, you can see a poster above you who calls it a sin.

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Thank you for responding, but even if I am able to identify the person or persons you haven't named, I see nothing here where any candidate identifies himself or herself as a "conservative."

Albion said:

Thank you for responding, but even if I am able to identify the person or persons you haven't named, I see nothing here where any candidate identifies himself or herself as a "conservative."

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The majority of people on this board identify as Conservative.

Marius27 said:

The majority of people on this board identify as Conservative.

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Humor me as a newcomer to this thread and forum, then. What's the evidence of that?

Lik3 said:

I know that the Bible implicitly says that homosexuality and bisexuality are sins, but why is transgenderism (is that a word?) a sin? Being transgender is obviously different than being a homosexual or a bisexual, but why is it a part of the LGBT community? I thought that a person is transgender because of an identity issue, not necessarily a sin or lifestyle issue. I'm confused. Help me to understand.

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In reality, there IS some disconnect between the differing factions within the LGBT, particularly between the LGB and the T. And that disconnect goes both ways. Just as most of the general population cannot understand transgenderism, neither do most in the LGB. And, not a small minority of the T reject the notion of being associated with the LGB.

The differences between the two are pretty much as you described them. The LGB are primarily, (but not solely), coming from a perspective of sexuality. But, transgender individuals are not. We are coming from a perspective of identity.

The real reason for there being any association between the T and the LGB are "simplicity". Political issues tend to be "one at a time" in our society. And, although transgender individuals do not necessarily associate personally with LGB individuals, the societal burdens imposed on both groups are much the same.

So, for political simplicity it is more efficient for there to be some association between the two groups. Otherwise, transgender individuals would have to make their political fight for life on their own. And the smaller numbers would relegate us to the shadows to be forgotten.

Autumnleaf said:

I don't think the word transgender is in the bible. Maybe if you look at what such people do you can find how the bible would classify them. This thread is like asking if God is okay with hipsters.

While some hipsters can annoyingly disrupt classrooms I'm not sure how the Bible treats them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql-1_uolBF4

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You are correct, the word "transgender" is not in the Bible. However, the idea most certainly is.

Among all the different cultures of the world, one stands out as being the most unchanging and longest lasting of them all. The Jewish culture.

Indeed, most all of Scripture was written within the context of Jewish culture. And, surprisingly, Jewish culture today refers to transsexuals in the common language as "eunuchs". If a culture so unchanging as theirs refers to us as "eunuchs", it seems quite reasonable that they regard us in the same meaning with which the Biblical writers viewed castrated officials of the OT. Indeed, Christ Himself had something to say about eunuchs. And HE even went so far as to declare that many could not accept what He was saying. It should be noted, however, that their inability to accept what He said in no way invalidates it.

You are likely among those who "cannot accept" His statements. And that's ok. I don't hold that against anyone. It IS difficult to understand. You oughtta try explaining it! That's worse. And most of the attempts made by transgender individuals to explain what they are going through are misunderstood and disassembled to pieces which no longer portray reality. And that causes most people to assume, wrongly, that reality isn't in the parlance of transgender individuals, and they MUST be mentally ill.

What cis-gendered people can't seem to grasp is that any explanation given by a transgender individual is merely an analogy. And no analogy holds completely true through each and every circumstance. An analogy is simply to assist in explaining a particular aspect of something. Not a treatise on all of the intricacies of it. So, they take common phrases like, "it feels like I'm a woman trapped in a man's body", and assume that the issue is simply about feelings, which anyone with half a wit knows feelings are unstable. The point is, it isn't about feelings. That phrase is intended simply to convey how it affects us. Not define what "it" is. There are no words to describe what "it" is. Explanations have to be grounded in common experience to be grasped. And there is no other human experience like being transgender. So, there is no common experience to reference. The problem with explaining "it" does not lie with transgender individuals. It lies with those who have never experienced it. You do not have the ability to grasp it. I hope you never do. For, to be able to understand you'd have to go through it. Many never make it out alive.

VDMA said:

I apologize for having come into this conversation late.

While it is true that every so often, someone is born with strange or unnatural contortions of genitalia, I believe that we ought to follow the gender that we were born with, or in these cases, the majority gender.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Genesis 1:27 ESV

"He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female," Matthew 19:4 ESV

Personally, I believe that transsexual, or males who identify as women go against the way God intended them to be, and as such, sin against his will.

However, I wish to point out that this does not give us Christians leeway to condemn them for their actions.

Jesus tells us to love. So I will love my neighbor.

However, if a transgendered or transsexual individual by the power of the Spirit seeks out the Kingdom of Heaven, and Christ, there MUST come a time when he/she/it is informed of [their] sinfulness. If he/she/it seeks to remain in sin without turning and repenting, well, then we must wipe the dust off our feet (Matthew 10:14-15).

We should not condemn, but love, and if Christ is sought, gently rebuke and forgive.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 ESV

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10-12

Transgendered/transsexual individuals must repent of their iniquities, much as I must. I am no better than them, and they are no better than me.

We are all equally unworthy in the eyes of God, but made worthy in the suffering and pain of our Lord Jesus on the Cross, and in His glorious Resurrection three days late.

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I agree that we should live as the gender God created us as. However, you are conflating sex and gender. They are distinct, and not interrelated or dependent on each other. And, they can conflict, which causes untold distress which most people cannot fathom. So, since you can't fathom it why not simply insist that those burdened by it just "live with it" and stop troubling you, right?

Which "iniquity" am I living under in my transition?

VDMA said:

None taken.

Personally, (please take no offense), as a Christian, I vehemently deny that you were born mentally female, and consider it the work of Satan to turn you from God. As a Christian (again no offense), I would personally urge you to seek self discipline, and to deny Satan his fun, and to live as God physically intended you to (as a male).

As for the physical birth defects, as someone who was born with pectus excavatum and Supraventricular Tachycardia, I don't see how the argument about birth defects should affect this discussion.

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By what Scriptural argument can you make these determinations? Are they not simply your own thoughts, being cloaked in "christianese" to give them a sense of validity?

The FACT that transsexuals brains are physically structured and operate as the opposite sex is well documented. Satan has no creative abilities to make things this way.

Birth defects are brought up simply because it has been determined that transsexuals are born this way and it is recognized that it isn't according to the usual circumstances. (Please recognize that the phrase "born this way" in no way implies a genetic cause. Many other birth defects are NOT caused by genetics.)

Supernaut said:

Agreed. The rate of suicide among many in the trans community is too high...makes me sad. Mostly stems from those (religious folk mostly) who would tell them that they are made the way they are and to defer from that is a sin/abomination.

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I have lost a few friends to suicide. And I have several others that struggle with it.