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Today at 02:23 AM cougan said this in Post #6
I wrote a paper on the rapture. Instead of hogging up lots of room you can just read it off my web server if you would like.
http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/rapture.html
Cougan
Today at 08:23 AM cougan said this in Post #6
I wrote a paper on the rapture. Instead of hogging up lots of room you can just read it off my web server if you would like.
http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/rapture.html
Cougan
Today at 09:07 AM Rize said this in Post #8
In either case, almost everything in Revelation has already taken place."
I hardly know what to say. Except that I emphatically reject this view (in favor of the view I linked to in the thread above).
Yesterday at 09:56 AM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #10
Hello Rize,
I must say, we are not even remotely close to what we believe. And I'm not too much of a debater. I can do some, but we are not even close and I don't have the time. I can say though, that you are very close in your beliefs to what the post-tribbers believe. I would also suggest that you are really missing the mark as far as the timing and meaning of the Day of the Lord. I believe that day will not begin until His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives, and that is the day that will last for 1000 years. For a better view of this, read my thread "MY DELIVERER IS COMIN'!!"
Oh well, I guess we can always agree to disagree. Cheers!!
Today at 12:33 PM Rize said this in Post #11
We can agree to disagree. Yes. However, if by your own admission, you are not a great debater, shouldn't you seriously question your own conclusions?
As for when the day of the Lord will occur, I have staked it to a clear and unmistakable sign which Jesus described. At the appearance of this sign in the book of Revelation (seal number 6) there are also other events that occur. Any good study Bible or internet reference should link you to the Old Testament texts which describe, in more detail than Jesus did, the signs of the day of the Lord. In particular from the book of Joel and Isaiah. In Jesus Servant's post-trib/pre-wrath thread, I have gone into great detail concerning this sign.
Today at 03:09 AM Rize said this in Post #13
Also, you were clearly pre-trib before. Will you elaborate on your position now?
In the parable of the 10 virgins, isn't the door closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming?18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...The Rapture and the Parable Of Ten Virgins...
Note that everyone in the body of Christ is part of the bride of Christ, "for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32). Note that Christ doesn't marry part of his body, but his entire body, the church. Note that no verse in the Bible distinguishes between the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, or says that the bride of Christ is only part of the body of Christ.18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...there is a difference between the [church] and the [bride]...
"So shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:39-40).18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...one will be taken and the other left...
Does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)? Is it possible all the Christians we see in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) are us, saved before the tribulation began? Does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation?18th February 2003 at 03:41 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #1
...people are still receiving salvation in the tribulation...
Some say that in order to believe Jesus won't come until after the tribulation one must "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). But if that's when Jesus said he is scheduled to come (Matthew 24:29-31), how is that a delay?18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...My master is staying away a long time...
Note that someone who believes the rapture is after the tribulation at the 2nd coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) in no way scoffs at his 2nd coming (2 Peter 3:2-4).18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...scoffers will come...
By this analogy, do you feel that Adam's own body missed out on being married? Did Eve's body have a closer relationship to Adam than Adam's own body?18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...God will also take Christ' bride out of His own body, the same way He took Eve out of Adams body...
I'm glad we may agree that the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 aren't the church, but aren't we Christians mentioned throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...the word church is not mentioned after chapter 3 in the Book of Revelation...
Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...the wedding in heaven...
Note that no scripture refers to "tribulation saints," or says that there can be anyone saved outside of the body of Christ, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5); "ye are called in one body" (Colossians 3:15); "he is the saviour of the body" (Ephesians 5:23); "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 12:13); "we, being many, are one body in Christ" (Romans 12:5); "now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular" (1 Corinthians 12:27); "the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).18th February 2003 at 03:45 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #2
...the tribulation saints...
Note that Jesus comes on people as a thief only "if" they aren't watching: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3).18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...like a thief...
Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...watch...
Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...Rev. 3:10...
I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the tribulation: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36). But note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...Luke 21: 34-36...
Note that overcomers must be faithful unto death in tribulation: "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Revelation 2:10-11); "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (Revelation 12:11).18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...OVERCOMING...
Note that Jesus didn't have to remove the 1st century church of Philadelphia from time itself, but simply kept them from a time of testing that came upon the rest of the church, just as one student excused from taking a test during the hour in which it is being administered to all his fellow students, and is allowed to sit at his desk for that hour reading the Bible, doesn't have to be removed from time itself in order to be excused from the hour of testing, for it will not be an hour of testing for that student, but only for those who are being tested at that time.18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...kept from the (hour or time) of the test...
While I believe the church began in Acts 2, note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church will continue "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note again that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and every Christian must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).18th February 2003 at 03:46 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #3
...church age...
Could we be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth?19th February 2003 at 03:18 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #9
...those who are ready, will be caught up together and meet the Lord in the air, and in the clouds...
Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.19th February 2003 at 03:18 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #9
...He was preparing a place for us and that He would come again and receive us to Himself, that where He is, we may be also...
Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?19th February 2003 at 03:18 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #9
...I'm standing firm, on the promises...