I'm just wondering if Islam is really a pagan religion?

steve_bakr · Aug 14, 2014

SolomonVII said:
If that is what you think, you have not yet comprehended anything that I have been saying.
I am not saying you have bad information. I am not even saying that this is not the authentic belief of some Muslims.
What I have been saying that even if what you or I are saying about Islam is the perfect depiction of the Islamic faith, it does not really matter.

Islam is not a book. It is not a theory. it is not some ideal that is beautiful to contemplate and pleasant to the mind and melodious to the ear.
If that is what it is, it doesn't matter. It is not something that is worth even considering for a Christian, who already has Christ.

What Islam is, is a practice. It does not come to being through study, but through the people who believe and practice it. It hardly matters a whit if what the perfect Islam of the mind teaches that People of the Book are to be esteemed and protected, when Copts in Egypt cannot even get a simple building permit to fix their churches.
And this is what happens at the best of times, not the worst of times, which are much, much worse.
While you are positively drooling over what Islam teaches and how much it has had to offer, you are indifferent to what is actually happening in the here and now through people who actually practice the religion.
I laud Mormons, because even if the divine delivery of the message to the con man who founded that faith is about as believable as the moon being made of green cheese, Mormons by and large are exemplary citizens who make moral choices and bring healthy families into the world, just as general practice. The beginnings of Islam to me are as equally preposterous and unbelievable as the beginnings of Mormonism, in my view, but it is not the theology that interests me much.

I don't much like these practices, this codified law fit for the Middle Age mindset, that was forward reaching for that time, but that makes it difficult for an Egyptian Copt to even get a building permit for his church, or a license to broadcast.
You laud the protection of dhimmi status, and consider yourself a good person, full of tolerance and good will on that account.

I think that anyone who lauds dhimmitude and the demeaning laws made for folks on account of their religion is someone who has lost his moral compass, frankly. It turns my stomach to hear a modern Christian say such thing. Really it does. It makes me blanche.

Seriously, through such laws, what the teachings of Islam do in this modern age is take good people and make them act badly toward their fellow human beings.

I think you are a bit hasty with your moral indignation. I don't condone dhimmitude for today's time and neither do the Muslim thinkers and scholars whom I have studied.

The point you missed about dhimmitude is that, during the time I mentioned, it was far and away more tolerant than anything Christianity practiced.

A case in point is Muslim Andalusia, where Jews lived in safe harbor from Christian persecution and were hired as scholars for their translation abilities, and even served in administrative capacities. There were also many Christians in Muslim Andalusia, and many Christian scholars were attracted by the interaction of religious ideas.

Contrast this with the Christian reconquest of this territory, after which all Jews were expelled from their homes and banned from that territory on pain of execution. Muslims were given the choice of baptism, death, or banishment.

So, I think we need to practice humility among ourselves when we judge other religions. I have tried to explain to you that the current madness is not in accordance with what Islam teaches, and that is a very important point.

The truth is that sincere Muslims are victims in this rampage of terror. We ought to be praying for them and rendering them assistance and support in every way possible.

I have been studying religion for most of my life. My grandmother taught World Religion and I started out by reading her books when I was young. The first official class I took in what was then called Comparative World Religion was taught by a Christian pastor who also happened to be an academic.

He was my mentor in many ways and taught other religions without passing judgment. His view was that Christianity stands on its own merits so that we don't have to be judgmental towards other religions.

SolomonVII · Aug 14, 2014

steve_bakr said:
I think you are a bit hasty with your moral indignation. I don't condone dhimmitude for today's time and neither do the Muslim thinkers and scholars whom I have studied.

Dollars to donuts, you will be singing its praises again in the next breath

Breathe in....

The point you missed about dhimmitude is that, during the time I mentioned, it was far and away more tolerant than anything Christianity practiced.

And breathe out...

Anyway enough of this.

Thanks.

steve_bakr · Aug 14, 2014

SolomonVII said:
Dollars to donuts, you will be singing its praises again in the next breath

Breathe in....

And breathe out...

Anyway enough of this.

Thanks.

OK, but I'm not sure why you still didn't get the point, which I think in large part is humility.

PaladinValer · Aug 14, 2014

SolomonVII said:
Well I suppose by way of analogy, I would compare apologetics to two men in the bar who see a pretty girl walk in. (And she has a beautiful personality too, of course, because that is what men really are attracted to).

<snip>

Again, this has nothing to do with anything my posts are about, so again: what is the point?

And quite honestly, your opinions based on your posts replying to steve_baker are unfounded in the historical record, which authenticates his posts

SolomonVII · Aug 14, 2014

PaladinValer said:
<snip>

Again, this has nothing to do with anything my posts are about, so again: what is the point?

And quite honestly, your opinions based on your posts replying to steve_baker are unfounded in the historical record, which authenticates his posts

Thanks for the laughs, but I have enough of people drooling over Abdul's package.
Carry on.

SolomonVII · Aug 14, 2014

steve_bakr said:
OK, but I'm not sure why you still didn't get the point, which I think in large part is humility.

It is you that has no ability to address what I have been saying.
It has nothing to do with me not getting your little pencil stub of a point.

squint · Aug 14, 2014

SolomonVII said:
Thanks for the laughs, but I have enough of people drooling over Abdul's package.
Carry on.

Some people have the delusion that their subjective views of history and the subjective history sifters they solely employ are thee sole and only arbiters of all truth.

It's even funnier when they expect others to believe it.

SolomonVII · Aug 14, 2014

squint said:
Some people have the delusion that their subjective views of history and the subjective history sifters they solely employ are thee sole and only arbiters of all truth.

It's even funnier when they expect others to believe it.

It would be a little easier to swallow if the same ones were not getting so pompous and decrying Protestants as anti-Catholic for being so pro-reform of the kind of church that they are now telling us compares so unfavorably to even Islam.

steve_bakr · Aug 14, 2014

SolomonVII said:
It is you that has no ability to address what I have been saying.
It has nothing to do with me not getting your little pencil stub of a point.

I will only say that I encourage potraying the true facts about other religions, rather than what is commonly known as polemics. As I said, we only make ourselves and our faith appear petty, even ignorant, when we denigrate other religions, thinking that we are doing so from a superior position.

As Christians, we are blessed, but we are not superior. I have tried to demonstrate to you that we are in no position to judge others or their religion. This is where Christian humility is appropriate and goes a long way towards healing misunderstandings between religions.

steve_bakr · Aug 14, 2014

squint said:
Some people have the delusion that their subjective views of history and the subjective history sifters they solely employ are thee sole and only arbiters of all truth.

It's even funnier when they expect others to believe it.

Hello squint, if you have any specific issues with the facts I have represented about Islam, I would be happy to address them. I would have to request, however, that you only use information from bonafide scholars of Islam whose work has been judged credible in that academic field. There is a lot of "stuff" out there that falls woefully short of that standard.

Gxg (G²) · Aug 14, 2014

steve_bakr said:
..about dhimmitude is that, during the time I mentioned, it was far and away more tolerant than anything Christianity practiced.

A case in point is Muslim Andalusia, where Jews lived in safe harbor from Christian persecution and were hired as scholars for their translation abilities, and even served in administrative capacities. There were also many Christians in Muslim Andalusia, and many Christian scholars were attracted by the interaction of religious ideas.

Contrast this with the Christian reconquest of this territory, after which all Jews were expelled from their homes and banned from that territory on pain of execution. Muslims were given the choice of baptism, death, or banishment.

So, I think we need to practice humility among ourselves when we judge other religions.

On point - and as it concerns the dynamic of the practice of Muslims meaning more than what others say on what Islam teaches, it is odd that we often focus on the negative and extreme behavior of Muslim groups and say "THAT'S the real evidence - not what you and I in the West think!!!" and yet we ignore other Muslims who went opposite of that or were practicing extreme hospitality toward Christians and Jews in ancient times/recent. It's selective

steve_bakr · Aug 14, 2014

Gxg (G²);66164578 said:
On point - and as it concerns the dynamic of the practice of Muslims meaning more than what others say on what Islam teaches, it is odd that we often focus on the negative and extreme behavior of Muslim groups and say "THAT'S the real evidence - not what you and I in the West think!!!" and yet we ignore other Muslims who went opposite of that or were practicing extreme hospitality toward Christians and Jews in ancient times/recent. It's selective

Thanks, there is a whole host of Muslim thinkers who are very positive and friendly towards Christians and Jews, among them are two prominent Muslim scholars, Reza Shah-Kazemi and Seyyed Hossein Nasr. Sadly, these are not the Muslims who make it into the News, but only radicals and extremists.

SolomonVII · Aug 14, 2014

steve_bakr said:
I will only say that I encourage potraying the true facts about other religions ...

Ditto for me.
Portraying only the half of the facts that go to support your argument in fact is to engage in half truths. It is in itself a form of polemics.

One can only note your bias. That is what you are blind to.

Gxg (G²) · Aug 14, 2014

steve_bakr said:
Thanks, there is a whole host of Muslim thinkers who are very positive and friendly towards Christians and Jews, among them are two prominent Muslim scholars, Reza Shah-Kazemi and Seyyed Hossein Nasr. Sadly, these are not the Muslims who make it into the News, but only radicals and extremists.

I am aware of Reza and Seyyed and I'm surprised they are not brought up more, as well as others. It really doesn't help at all on the issues

steve_bakr · Aug 14, 2014

SolomonVII said:
Ditto for me.
Portraying only the half of the facts that go to support your argument in fact is to engage in half truths. It is in itself a form of polemics.

One can only note your bias. That is what you are blind to.

I've supported my position with a lot of material, which I have learned from scholarship in the academic field by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

The argument in your posts represent to me that judging Islam as a religion by the activity of radicals, extremists, and criminals is somehow a valid position to hold, which I say is totally false and unsupportable.

Earlier I demonstrated with the example of murder, mayhem, and the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Christians that this logic applies neither to Islam nor to Christianity.

PaladinValer · Aug 14, 2014

SolomonVII said:
Ditto for me.
Portraying only the half of the facts that go to support your argument in fact is to engage in half truths. It is in itself a form of polemics.

One can only note your bias. That is what you are blind to.

Valer's Law #2: when an argument is wrong, the personal attacks begin in order to still sound valid.

"You" directs the reply to the person, not to the post. He isn't up to debate; his beliefs are. Address them, not him.

SolomonVII · Aug 14, 2014

steve_bakr said:
I've supported my position with a lot of material, which I have learned from scholarship in the academic field by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

The argument in your posts represent to me that judging Islam as a religion by the activity of radicals, extremists, and criminals is somehow a valid position to hold, which I say is totally false and unsupportable.

Earlier I demonstrated with the example of murder, mayhem, and the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Christians that this logic applies neither to Islam nor to Christianity.

There is something deeply dishonest of lauding dhimmi laws, when you know how harmful that they have been to the Copts. There is something deeply dishonest about making them look so exemplary, when you yourself admit that neither you nor your kind would ever want anything like that in this day and age

Guess what? This is the day and age we are living in right now. Who cares what happened 600 years ago. It is all academic guess work anyways to try to figure out what the past was all about. History is a creative exercise. It has always been inherently political. It tells more about the polemics of the person than a true picture of what the past was really like.

I don't know what is more contemptible, actually believing in these laws, which translate into English as Jim Crowe, or pumping them up to be so wonderfully much better than Christianity, just in some smarmy patronizing move in order that people might think that you are such a magnanimous fellow.

I have answered all of your points, including your Jerusalem one.

Why bring that up again? The Crusades were a Catholic thing anyways.

So you feel ashamed all you want. It has nothing to do with me, or the world we live in now.

SolomonVII · Aug 14, 2014

PaladinValer said:
Valer's Law #2: when an argument is wrong, the personal attacks begin in order to still sound valid.

"You" directs the reply to the person, not to the post. He isn't up to debate; his beliefs are. Address them, not him.

What does it have to do with you?

Or "you"?

Half truths are not truth, not TRUTH, not even 'truth', or "truth", if you prefer.

Rather, they are deeply dishonest.

You would have to have a sense of humor to even half understand the things I have said in this thread, so it is not surprise that I there is no understanding forthcoming.

Mama Kidogo · Aug 14, 2014

So have we decided whether the Muslim is pagan or not?

SolomonVII · Aug 15, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
So have we decided whether the Muslim is pagan or not?

I'm just wondering if Islam is really a pagan religion?

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