What do you believe in?

Endure,

I believe I read somewhere in another post on this board that you lost your salvation once, correct?

If that is true then you can never receive salvation again Read Hebrews 6.

From reading the Scriptures I gather that those whom God saves are saved forever. Read Romans 8:28-39.



Be Well

if you were accurate concerning your reference to heb 6 then you would be correct in your evidence that you give to prove that one cant lose their salvation.

but you are not.

it doesnt ever state that one cant repent after doing this,
read it slowly,
what it does say is that they cant be "renewed" to repentance.
2 diffrent things.

it means one cannot get them to repent again. they cannot be brought back to repentance.
it does not say repentence by that man is not heard by God.

what the scripture clearly teaches is that we as christians must forgive our brothers 7 x 70 times, day. pretty much meaning, you must always forgive no matter how many times.
what would the god that taught that be like if he himself did not have the same way of being?
God also forgives often that no matter how often it is.

well, there i asked you a question to reason over,
now i will go to scripture give you proof that there can be nothing one can ever do that, that God is not merciful to and will not forgive. (im doing this to refute your theory that if one fell away he could not come back)

the psalms say gods mercy is "from everlasting to everlasting"
it is just as omnipotent and outside the effects of time as God himself, just as he never had a begginning and will have no end, his mercy is the same. you cant exhaust it.
(what you CAN do is put yourself in a place of exhile from it, and refuse to partake of it, that is what blasphemy of the holyspirit is)

paul preached that he was convinced that nothing can ever seperate you from Gods love.
theres nothing you can do that will take out of the affection of mercy of God, theres no place you could ever be that Gods love isnt toward you.
(but to kill 2 birds with one stone, i will say Gods mercy toward you doesnt mean its effectual in you, you have to partake of it and submit to it, a person being loved by God, isnt equal to a person actually being saved, but it does mean its available)

the bible teaches that Gods mercy is unfailing and without end.

the bible clearly says ALL who shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved.
that word ALL covers all peoples, it gives no distinction with whether or not youve been saved before. ALL people, does include people whove been saved. no matter what stage of life or experience your in, you can still call on him to save to you and you will be saved.

so you cant say that the bible teaches one would not be able to be saved again if he fell away, as evidence to say one cant fall away or that thats unreasonable in anyway.

Endure,

You say that the words of scripture reveal God's nature.
Was this the case with the Pharisees? Did they reject Christ because of the words of scripture? Jesus told them they did not understand scripture although they knew ever word. The Pharisees rejected God totally based upon His word.
JN 7:47 "You mean he has deceived you also?" the Pharisees retorted. 48 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49 No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."

Yes, it's God's nature that I would assert as a requirement to understanding scripture.


Blessings

jesaiah


romans 8.28-39

what this says is that those who LOVE God have everything work for them v28.

and that he predestined us to get saved v29
justified us v30
glorified us v30
God is always for us v31
he will give us all things v32
no one can refute God for his election v33
christ died for us v34
he is at the right hand of God interceeding for us v34
nothing can take us out of Gods affection v35
we all always conqueres in him v37
nothing can take us from the love of God v38-39

i say this to show you that i do agree this verse teaches many things, concerning Gods unfailing love and our power in him.
yet none of these things can be used as true evidence that one cant leave him.

just becuase he loves you, thats no reason to say you cant leave him. we can always do wrong to people that love us.

just becuase we have great power in him, thats no reason to say we cant leave him. just as soldiers throw down their arms, we can always leave the thing that gives us power.

just becuase he predestined us to get saved, simply refering to his desire for us. thats no reason to say we cant leave him, we have many times disobeyed the desire of others.

just becuase he died for you and interceeds for you, thats no reason to say we cant leave him, we have often not hearkened to peoples attemps to save us.

these are very simple arguements, but the scripture teaches very simple things and they cant be said to means things they simply dont say.

the benefits in this verse point back to a people that LOVE GOD.
that is the kind if person the scripture says can partake of this, not everyother kind of person.
and just becuase a person once got saved, is no logic to believe he cant ever stop loving God. and his first decision is no logic to say he cant ever change his desire. people change opinions and desires every day of their lives.



 

eldermike,

yes i still hold that romans 1 means what it says.

what the pharisees did was refuse to take scripture for what it was, they wouldnt accept it.
they didnt fail to beleive becuase of a lack of abiliy to understanding, they failed to understand becuase they refused to listen to what it clearly said and refused to accept it.

they were a disobedient rebellious people, not a people who lacked understanding and could not help failing to understand, it was a choice made by them to hold to what they desired to be true.

Jesus said HEAR AND UNDERSTAND...
thats all it takes to understand, and one must hear before he can understand.

jesus said the pharisees CLOSED THEIR EYES AND EARS LEST THEY HEAR AND BELIEVE AND BE SAVED AND HEALED.
the pharisees did not lack potential to understand, or God would have been merciful, but they were simply disobedient.

what the pharisees did was refuse to take scripture for what it was, they wouldnt accept it.

Click to expand...

Are you saying here that if they had taken it seriously they would not need a new covenant?

Today at 01:46 PM endure said this in Post #22 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658764#post658764)

if you were accurate concerning your reference to heb 6 then you would be correct in your evidence that you give to prove that one cant lose their salvation.

but you are not.

it doesnt ever state that one cant repent after doing this,
read it slowly,
what it does say is that they cant be "renewed" to repentance.
2 diffrent things.

it means one cannot get them to repent again. they cannot be brought back to repentance.
it does not say repentence by that man is not heard by God.

Click to expand...

Endure,

You just contradicted yourself. You said that Hebrew 6 means that one will not repent once they have rejected Christ yet God hears the man's repentance? Which is it?

Here is an exerpt from Dr. Spiros Zodiahates as he examines the Greek usage for "renew":

We must go back now to the discussion of the phrase, "It is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (vs.6). The key to the understanding of this difficult passage is the meaning of the Greek infinitive anakainizo, "to renew." It is made up of the preposition ana, which means "again," and kainos, which means "new but qualitatively different." Therefore, anakainizo means to have a qualitively new, different repentance.
Why is it impossible to have a qualitively different or new repentance? Because to have a different kind of repentance, it would be neccessary for Jesus Christ to die again on the cross. According to the entire teaching of Hebrews (Heb. 9:28; 10:11,12), Jesus Christ died once and for all for man's sin. He cannot come back and die again in order to gain for us another redemption which we will see us through this time.
Not only is it impossible to have Jesus Christ die again, but having failed to save to the end th ones who trusted in Him, it would cause His crucifixion on the cross to become as something to be ridiculed. It did not work; it was not sufficient.

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Hebrew 6 states that if one did lose his salvation then he could never be saved again because a new sacrifice would be needed and what sacrifice is greater or equal to that of Jesus Christ's death at Calvary?


Be well

Today at 02:04 PM endure said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658794#post658794)

jesaiah


romans 8.28-39

what this says is that those who LOVE God have everything work for them v28.

and that he predestined us to get saved v29
justified us v30
glorified us v30
God is always for us v31
he will give us all things v32
no one can refute God for his election v33
christ died for us v34
he is at the right hand of God interceeding for us v34
nothing can take us out of Gods affection v35
we all always conqueres in him v37
nothing can take us from the love of God v38-39

i say this to show you that i do agree this verse teaches many things, concerning Gods unfailing love and our power in him.
yet none of these things can be used as true evidence that one cant leave him.

just becuase he loves you, thats no reason to say you cant leave him. we can always do wrong to people that love us.

just becuase we have great power in him, thats no reason to say we cant leave him. just as soldiers throw down their arms, we can always leave the thing that gives us power.

just becuase he predestined us to get saved, simply refering to his desire for us. thats no reason to say we cant leave him, we have many times disobeyed the desire of others.

just becuase he died for you and interceeds for you, thats no reason to say we cant leave him, we have often not hearkened to peoples attemps to save us.

these are very simple arguements, but the scripture teaches very simple things and they cant be said to means things they simply dont say.

the benefits in this verse point back to a people that LOVE GOD.
that is the kind if person the scripture says can partake of this, not everyother kind of person.
and just becuase a person once got saved, is no logic to believe he cant ever stop loving God. and his first decision is no logic to say he cant ever change his desire. people change opinions and desires every day of their lives.



 

Click to expand...

Endure,

Let's begin with vs. 28, Paul tells us that all things work for good for those who love God, who have been called according to His purpose. First we find that it was according to God's purpose, not yours or mine, that we were called to love God.

Now on to vs.29, Paul says that God forknew (new before we were ever created not that He looked down throught time and saw what we would do) these and He predestined those to be conformed to the image of Christ.

vs. 30 Those whom He predestined He called, these are the ones who loved Him because He called them, and these whom He has called He has justified (this means they are declared righteous by the works of Christ), and these whom He has called and justified will be glorified (just as Christ was glorified for all eternity).

Therefore Paul says if God has done all of this for us then who will stand against God and say we are not saved? Will Christ? No, He died for us and interceeds for us. Who can separate us from the love of Christ who has performed the acts described in verses 29-30? No one, not even yourself

The love of God is characterized in this passage by the works that God has performed for His elect as mentioned in verses 29-30. So you cannot just walk away from God, you are His Sheep and He is the good shepherd. Just like the shepherd who brings His sheep back into the fold, so God will bring His elect unto Him.

Be Well

eldermike
no i am not.
what i am saying is that still, revelation of Gods nature comes from scripture. it isnt true one must first have a revelation of God to understand scripture.
the reason the pharisees didnt understand was becuase they refused to accept the simple teaches of scripture that reveal God.
not becuase a forknowledge is required that they did not have.

im simply talking about understanding scripture, not anything else.

jesaiah
in the simplicity of my true original statement, there is no contradiction.

i simply meant that that man would not repent, not, that if he did he would not be heard by God or that he does not have the ability to repent.

if the word means to renew it means to renew.
i look both ana and kainos up in my concordance and they both simply mean to renew and new.

i dont really know alot about the details of greek and it seems to me its simply saying one cant bring him to a new fresh repentence.

i dont think this person would need Jesus to die again, nor do i think it weak, less or insufficient of God give a sacrifice or provision for salvation that is only effective while one is abiding in it.

i agree that it was gods purpose and not ours, but that doesnt really mean anything to this anyway.

no sorry, i dont agree with the theory that God knew our every action since the beginning of time.
this will cause a whole new debate to explode, on predestination and its true meaning but i really dont want to go there anymore.

but no i dont agree that Gods predestination or choice for us controls us to come to any end. so i dont think you can raise that as truth to prove he will keep us saved.

i know youll probly go into all the ups and downs of predestination now, but id rather not, ive done that on other threads already.

Today at 04:02 PM endure said this in Post #29 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=661088#post661088)



jesaiah
in the simplicity of my true original statement, there is no contradiction.

i simply meant that that man would not repent, not, that if he did he would not be heard by God or that he does not have the ability to repent.

if the word means to renew it means to renew.
i look both ana and kainos up in my concordance and they both simply mean to renew and new.

i dont really know alot about the details of greek and it seems to me its simply saying one cant bring him to a new fresh repentence.

i dont think this person would need Jesus to die again, nor do i think it weak, less or insufficient of God give a sacrifice or provision for salvation that is only effective while one is abiding in it.

i agree that it was gods purpose and not ours, but that doesnt really mean anything to this anyway.

no sorry, i dont agree with the theory that God knew our every action since the beginning of time.
this will cause a whole new debate to explode, on predestination and its true meaning but i really dont want to go there anymore.

but no i dont agree that Gods predestination or choice for us controls us to come to any end. so i dont think you can raise that as truth to prove he will keep us saved.

i know youll probly go into all the ups and downs of predestination now, but id rather not, ive done that on other threads already.

Click to expand...

Well then for the moment we will agree to disagree.

God Bless brother

yeah, you too man.
love ya.

Jesaiah, very well put. I couldn't agree any more.

God Bless