Calvinism Question

FreeGrace2 · Jun 7, 2014

I said this:
There is Scripture that clearly says who God is pleased to save (1 Cor 1:21). It should be clear to anyone that God chooses to do what pleases Him.

iow, God chooses (is well pleased to) save those who believe.

There is nothing in Scripture about God choosing who will believe.

Calvinists need to recalibrate.

heymikey80 said:
1 Cor 1:21? God was pleased to save people through preaching.

By this logic people are only chosen by preaching, too.

That's not logical at all. Many people have been saved by simply reading the Bible. And personal witnessing isn't even close to "preaching". That's quite different from sharing.

If at some point you wish to hold your own views accountable to the challenge you make against the views outside your head, I might find it interesting. But this, no, I don't even consider it realistic, much less definitive.

This makes no sense.

John 6:63-65 remains unaddressed. Jesus says people will not believe unless God gives it to them to come to Him. So Jesus has punched ahead of your inaccurate interpretation if 1 Cor 1:21. God gives to some people. God does not give this to other people. Jesus Himself said so, and said that was why people believed and didn't believe, why people did or didn't come to Jesus.

To equate that passage to the notion that God chooses who will believe is folly.

The idea that you can dictate "pleasure" as choice, but "giving" as forced out of God, not His choice, I don't find realistic.

There is nothing "dictated" here. According to your fuzzy logic, then God's pleasure isn't related or connected to His choice. How does that make any sense? If doesn't, of course.

I remark on the irony that you would ignore Jesus saying "People don't believe! This is why I told God doesn't give it to them to come to Me." And you respond claiming Scripture doesn't say why people don't believe. He just said this was why He said it. I would advise learning the meaning of what Jesus said.

The reason people don't believe is because they refuse to believe. iow, they aren't willing to believe. Some references? Sure.

Numbers 14:11
The LORD said to Moses, How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?

Acts 14:2
But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 19:9
But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

It's always about choice. And a refusal is a choice, clear and simple.

heymikey80 · Jun 7, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
That's not logical at all. Many people have been saved by simply reading the Bible. And personal witnessing isn't even close to "preaching". That's quite different from sharing.

Read the prooftext you yourself selected. All I did was apply your reasoning about God choosing belief, to what God actually chose in the sentence. If preaching is what God chose, then it is what God chose.
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
Greek grammar points rather to gospel preaching that God's pleased to choose, not belief. So I find the prooftext shy of your point and demonstrated the reason. And you agree the reasoning you gave is flawed when applied to that verse. Mkay.

heymikey80 · Jun 7, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
The reason people don't believe is because they refuse to believe. iow, they aren't willing to believe. Some references? Sure.
Numbers 14:11[bless and do not curse]The LORD said to Moses, How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?[bless and do not curse]
Acts 14:2[bless and do not curse]But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.[bless and do not curse]
Acts 19:9[bless and do not curse]But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.[bless and do not curse]It's always about choice. And a refusal is a choice, clear and simple.

What verse says, "It's always about [the recipient's] choice"? What verse says, "Its always about a free will decision"? None of your citations says this. You appear interested for your opposition to do such a thing.

On the contrary, a number of verses point out God appoints people their defiance, and gives to them to learn from Him, come to Christ and be redeemed. He even indicates to His opponents their downfall. These verses have been brought up in the thread.

This view is simply circular: "they don't because they refuse." Um, refusal is an act of will. A don't is a refusal.

Who changes the will?

Yet Scripture says, God changes people.

Like Christ said, God gives to people to come to Christ.

heymikey80 · Jun 7, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
To equate that passage to the notion that God chooses who will believe is folly.

Where does Scripture SAY that doing so with John 6:63-65 is folly?

All I am doing is quoting Jesus. Jesus Himself says God gives some to come to Him, and others to disbelieve. In what way could that possibly be folly? Jesus said it explicitly.

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

I will follow the Savior's words. Whose are you following?

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing "dictated" here. According to your fuzzy logic, then God's pleasure isn't related or connected to His choice. How does that make any sense? If doesn't, of course.

Wrong. My logic says it is fine to call God's pleased actions His choice. Yet you misattributed what bit of choice God was pleased by. Read the context. God was pleased to bring people through preaching.

You were the one whose logic said that excluded everything else. Are you happy with your logic? No? It is sounding less and less likely that you are.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 7, 2014

heymikey80 said:
Read the prooftext you yourself selected. All I did was apply your reasoning about God choosing belief, to what God actually chose in the sentence. If preaching is what God chose, then it is what God chose.

The point continues to be missed. Yes, God chose preaching as the means to give the gospel promise. But don't dodge the FACT that since God is well pleased (NASB) to save those who believe, that surely IS a choice.

Should one not think that what pleases God to do isn't a choice for Him????

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
Greek grammar points rather to gospel preaching that God's pleased to choose, not belief.

If that is true, please lay out your case. Just making a statement does nothing to support your claim. In fact, the parenthetical phrase "through the folly of what we preach" can be eliminated from the verse, and the message doesn't change one bit.

So I find the prooftext shy of your point and demonstrated the reason.

Nothing was demonstrated. Just claims made. Nos support or explanation.

And you agree the reasoning you gave is flawed when applied to that verse. Mkay.

Say what? Where did I agree that my reasoning was flawed??? Please provide the post # because I don't believe it.

If a post # isn't provided, I and the rest of CF that is following this thread will know that your claim is false.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 7, 2014

heymikey80 said:
What verse says, "It's always about [the recipient's] choice"? What verse says, "Its always about a free will decision"? None of your citations says this. You appear interested for your opposition to do such a thing.

The phrase "refused to believe" is the key, which you're dodging. To refuse to do something is a choice. Or prove that it's not a choice.

On the contrary, a number of verses point out God appoints people their defiance, and gives to them to learn from Him, come to Christ and be redeemed. He even indicates to His opponents their downfall. These verses have been brought up in the thread.

Then it should be rather easy to cite them again. If one wants to prove or support their point, they need to cite support for their claim. I reject all of your claims here, so only if you actually cite verses will I believe your claim.

God never appoints defiance. That is saying that God causes sin. Nonsense.
Yes, mankind does learn from Him. Rom 1:19-20

This view is simply circular: "they don't because they refuse." Um, refusal is an act of will. A don't is a refusal.
Nothing circular. If one refuses to believe, they sure won't or don't believe. What's so hard about that?

Who changes the will?

Click to expand...

God changes hearts, as in regeneration. But since there are zero verses that state that regeneration precedes or is necessary for belief, you have no point.

Yet Scripture says, God changes people.

Click to expand...

Yep. He creates new creatures. Those who are "in Christ". And who is "in Christ"? Believers ONLY. Eph 1:13.

There. I've provided verses that back up what I say. Your turn.

Like Christ said, God gives to people to come to Christ.

Click to expand...

No, it says nothing like that. It does say that God gives people to Christ. And guess who those are: believers ONLY.

If I'm wrong, it should be easy to refute my claims and support your claims with Scripture. I'll be waiting.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 7, 2014

I said this:
To equate that passage to the notion that God chooses who will believe is folly.

heymikey80 said:
Where does Scripture SAY that doing so with John 6:63-65 is folly?

Your question makes no sense. There is no Scripture that says "that doing so with John 6:63-65 is folly". Please make sense in posting. Or at least proofread before submitting.

All I am doing is quoting Jesus. Jesus Himself says God gives some to come to Him, and others to disbelieve. In what way could that possibly be folly? Jesus said it explicitly.

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

I will follow the Savior's words. Whose are you following?

You're not following anything. The verse explicitly says nothing about "giving others to disbelieve". That's just a very poor eisegesis of the verse.

In fact, the last sentence of your quote of Jesus refers to the fact that only believers will come to Him.

Still no verse that says that God chooses who will believe, or that

[/QUOTE]Wrong. My logic says it is fine to call God's pleased actions His choice.[/QUOTE]
And that's been my point. He CHOOSES what pleases Him. Exactly what 1 Cor 1:21 is about.

Yet you misattributed what bit of choice God was pleased by. Read the context. God was pleased to bring people through preaching.

Wrong. The parenthetical phrase isn't necessary for the verse, as I've just proved. Please read it again.

You were the one whose logic said that excluded everything else.

What in the world are you meaning here? Seems you're applying your gross misunderstanding of my posts to some logic that isn't true. Can you cite any post # where "my logic said that excluded everything else"?

Are you happy with your logic? No? It is sounding less and less likely that you are.

Click to expand...

I still have no idea what your point is, or what you're trying to say.

And why bring up logic? There is no virtue in logic, because it can be quite fuzzy and even wrong. I always cite Scripture to back up my claims. If that isn't logical in your mind, that's not my problem.

Here's what isn't logical at all. The RT claims that Christ didn't die for everyone, without any verses to back that up, and that God chooses who will believe, when there are no verses to back that up either.

Simply illogical.

Click to expand...

extraordinary · Jun 7, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
Extra, extra, read all about it ...
Righteousness is a necessary attribute of those who have eternal life (several ref. available).

Instead of mentioning what is available, why not rather just provide them?

Jesus sent out His evangelists two by two, so let's do the same with all of the proof texts!

• Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, nor sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Psalm 24:3-5

• Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels …
Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matt 25:41-46

Both the OT and the NT teach ...
FAITH/TRUST ---> OBEDIENCE ---> RIGHTEOUSNESS ---> ETERNAL LIFE
.

heymikey80 · Jun 7, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
The phrase "refused to believe" is the key, which you're dodging. To refuse to do something is a choice. Or prove that it's not a choice.

False dichotomy. The issue doesn't rely on this distinction. You've yet to prove that God is not changing the person's will.
People make choices from their will. Their heart moves those choices. The heart of every man is in the hands of God.

FreeGrace2 said:
Then it should be rather easy to cite them again. If one wants to prove or support their point, they need to cite support for their claims. I reject all of your claims here, so only if you actually cite verses will I believe your claim.

1 Peter 2:7-8
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”8 and“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.”They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

John 6:44-45
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets,'And they will all be taught by God.’[bless and do not curse]Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me

John 6:63-65
It is the Spirit who gives life;[bless and do not curse]the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

FreeGrace2 said:
God never appoints defiance. That is saying that God causes sin. Nonsense.

Tell Peter that. Or better yet, his Savior.

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, mankind does learn from Him. Rom 1:19-20

To you they refuse, wilfully. So no, not every person learns.

FreeGrace2 said:
This view is simply circular: "they don't because they refuse." Um, refusal is an act of will. A don't is a refusal.

Click to expand...

Nothing circular. If one refuses to believe, they sure won't or don't believe. What's so hard about that?

Yeah, circular arguments are never hard. I pointed out the argument is circular. You have no response except contradiction. Again.

FreeGrace2 said:
God changes hearts, as in regeneration. But since there are zero verses that state that regeneration precedes or is necessary for belief, you have no point.

"But some do not believe. This is why I said..." Your inability to see that Jesus is explaining how some do not believe is interesting, but clearly it doesn't impress those who do see what Jesus is saying.

Very sad that after this many posts you have nothing to say except "bad!" Jesus is not bad at explaining why. He said so.

FreeGrace2 said:
Yep. He creates new creatures. Those who are "in Christ". And who is "in Christ"? Believers ONLY. Eph 1:13.

People heard the word of truth "in him", was that before or after they believed that gospel? Wow. They believed before they even heard, according to your view of "in him". But of course, this approach to Greek is impossibly artificial.

So you don't realize "in" in Greek is the same word for instrumentally "by", and you just handed me my own ammo again. People came to faith by Christ. They were given the gospel by Christ, they heard by Christ.

God chose people (not conditions, people) in Christ, before the world. Ep 1:4. God destined people beforehand, not conditions, people, in Christ. Ep 1:5.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, it says nothing like that. It does say that God gives people to Christ. And guess who those are: believers ONLY.

Yes, it is easy.
"[COLOR="dark red"]no one can come to me unless it is given to him by the Father[/COLOR]" John 6:65

The word is "him", not "me".

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2014

extraordinary said:
Jesus sent out His evangelists two by two, so let's do the same with all of the proof texts!

• Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, nor sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Psalm 24:3-5

• Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels …
Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matt 25:41-46

Both the OT and the NT teach ...
FAITH/TRUST ---> OBEDIENCE ---> RIGHTEOUSNESS ---> ETERNAL LIFE
.

Not one of these references equates to your equation. Please try again.

btw, Scripture teaches that the righteousness of Christ is imputed or credited to those who believe. And very clear verses teach that eternal life is based on faith, not on your "equation".

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

In your "equation", eternal life isn't a free gift. Far from it. I recommend memorizing Rom 6:23.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2014

heymikey80 said:
False dichotomy. The issue doesn't rely on this distinction.

That would be a false opinion.

You've yet to prove that God is not changing the person's will.

You've yet to prove that God changes anyone before they believe.

People make choices from their will. Their heart moves those choices. The heart of every man is in the hands of God.

So all the evil that comes out of a man's heart is because of God???? That's just weird. And very unbiblical.

James clearly indicated that man both blesses God and curses man from the same tongue. So your point isn't taken.

1 Peter 2:7-8
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,8 andA stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

What is destined is stumbling, not disobeying the Word. If God is the cause of anyone disobeying the Word, God is the author and cause of sin, which is blasphemous.

John 6:44-45
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets,'And they will all be taught by God.[bless and do not curse]Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me

v.45 is the key. It is only those who have listened and learned that come to Jesus. And God gives only believers to Jesus.

John 6:63-65
It is the Spirit who gives life;the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe. 65 And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

The only ones who can come to Jesus are those who believe, but confused and contradicted theology just can't see that clearly.

Tell Peter that. Or better yet, his Savior.

To you they refuse, wilfully. So no, not every person learns.

Actually, that's what Peter and Jesus believe. People refuse willfully. btw, there's no other way to refuse than willfully.

Does one ever refuse by accident?? ^_^

Yeah, circular arguments are never hard. I pointed out the argument is circular. You have no response except contradiction. Again.

You've shown nothing circular in my posts. If you did, please provide the post #. Otherwise, I will know that your claim is empty.

"But some do not believe. This is why I said..." Your inability to see that Jesus is explaining how some do not believe is interesting, but clearly it doesn't impress those who do see what Jesus is saying.

Your understanding of this verse is just way off track. Way off.

Very sad that after this many posts you have nothing to say except "bad!" Jesus is not bad at explaining why. He said so.

Your empty claims are becoming quite annoying. I've never ever described Jesus' explanations as "bad". Please provide the post # or retract your preposterous claim.

People heard the word of truth "in him", was that before or after they believed that gospel?

This question illustrates your extreme confusion and inability to understand the Word. Here is the verse:

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now, follow closely. Note the phrase "after listening to the messagehaving believed". That's WHEN one is "in Him". In fact believers are sealed in Him. Just because the phrase "in Him" begins at the beginning of the sentence in English doesn't mean it occurs first. The sentence is very clear.

AFTER listening to the messageHAVING believed, you were sealed IN HIM.

No one is sealed "in Him" before they believe. This verse does NOT say that, and nor does any other verse. If that is your view, it is unbiblical.

Wow. They believed before they even heard, according to your view of "in him". But of course, this approach to Greek is impossibly artificial.

So you don't realize "in" in Greek is the same word for instrumentally "by", and you just handed me my own ammo again. People came to faith by Christ. They were given the gospel by Christ, they heard by Christ.

What a kidder! First, I gave you no ammo, and what "ammo" you have has no powder.

Second, the word for "in" in Eph 1:13 is 'en', a proposition referring to place. iow, to be "in Him" is a reference to being IN union with Christ.

My lexicon says nothing of what your explanation gave.

God chose people (not conditions, people) in Christ, before the world. Ep 1:4.

Total misunderstanding of the verse. Since the phrase "in Him" is a preposisition, it simply identifies who the "us" are; believers. The verse actually says that God chose believers, or those who are in Him. Yes, this election was before time. So what? Eph 1:4 is about corporate election, not single election. It actually says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.

Nothing about being chosen or elected for salvation. In fact, God chose those who are already saved (in Him).

God destined people beforehand, not conditions, people, in Christ. Ep 1:5.

God destines believers only. For what? To be in the image of His Son.

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

extraordinary · Jun 8, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
• Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, nor sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Psalm 24:3-5

• Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels …
Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matt 25:41-46

Not one of these references equates to your equation. Please try again.

BTW, the original equation was: righteousness = eternal life
Or shall we say ... righteousness is necessary for eternal life
Or shall we say ... righteousness leads to eternal life
I must be careful ... there are many floating around who have religious spirits!

You're like the unbelievers who yell and scream, "Show me where Jesus says 'I am God'!"

Da point being ... there are spiritual Truths in Scripture, which must be spiritually discerned.
God doesn't want any spiritual idiot to be able to "see" all spiritual Truth just by simply reading the Bible.
Sincerely yours, Ripley
.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2014

extraordinary said:
BTW, the original equation was: righteousness = eternal life
Or shall we say ... righteousness is necessary for eternal life
Or shall we say ... righteousness leads to eternal life
I must be careful ... there are many floating around who have religious spirits!

I have no idea what is meant by "those having religious spirits", but, it seems to me that your view is that one must generate their own righteousness in order to ultaimately have eternal life. In fact, God credits or imputes the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ to those who believe in Him.

You're like the unbelievers who yell and scream, "Show me where Jesus says 'I am God'!"[/QUTOE]
No, I'm not like that. That is, in fact, absurd and irrational. Pure nonsense.

Da point being ... there are spiritual Truths in Scripture, which must be spiritually discerned.

Click to expand...

Don't try to push any spiritual superiority of yourself on me. Those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life have the Holy Spirit and have access to spiritual discernment. iow, you ain't alone.

God doesn't want any spiritual idiot to be able to "see" all spiritual Truth just by simply reading the Bible.

Click to expand...

More irrational nonsense, imho. Here's what Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 1:13
For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end;
2 Corinthians 1:14
just as you also partially did understand us, that we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus.

Colossians 4:4
that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak.

Paul clearly refutes your claim.

extraordinary · Jun 8, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
The Extra said:
God doesn't want any spiritual idiot to be able to "see" all spiritual Truth just by simply reading the Bible.

More irrational nonsense, imho.

Foist of oil, one must be born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit
to be able to "see" many spiritual Truths in the Bible.

Secondly, my statement above simply echoes what Jesus often mentioned:
His words were only for those who were able to see and hear spiritually!
(Everything was planned that way!)

Regards, Ripley
.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2014

extraordinary said:
Foist of oil, one must be born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit
to be able to "see" many spiritual Truths in the Bible.

Apparently my statement was missed:
Don't try to push any spiritual superiority of yourself on me. Those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life have the Holy Spirit and have access to spiritual discernment. iow, you ain't alone.

Secondly, my statement above simply echoes what Jesus often mentioned:
His words were only for those who were able to see and hear spiritually!
(Everything was planned that way!)

See above. For clarity.

heymikey80 · Jun 8, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
You've yet to prove that God changes anyone before they believe.

As youre having trouble with perfect tense, don't miss that your trouble doesnt dissolve what 1 John 5:1 says.

And you should know by now that saying "total" or even stating your opinion doesn't carry it as true. Once again, I point out your emotions about what Scripture says in black & white doesn't lead me to any different conclusion about what Scripture says.

It is an interesting problem for your argument. You say that God doesnt change people before belief. And I would say God gives people a heart that changes because of belief. Do you see that what you are looking for, not even I hold? And yet you claim my identification as a false dichotomy is a false opinion. No. It is a fact.

As it stands, you are burning straw men. And as I am not straw, your complaint does not come against my view. It falls against your continuing unwillingness to understand others, many of which are far better at conforming to the Scripture.

I had thought to point out that God gives people to repent, that is clear in Scripture. As repentance is the only thing that changes your mind, it is what you want to do. And God changes it. But of course this arrives ★with faith. You are looking for something no one holds. Find more straw to puff up your argument, but you have lost that argument with me.

He gives to people to come to Him, He changes hearts and He doesnt look to what that heart wants, as if a sinful heart should dictate His actions to Him.

Keep arguing with ideas of your own devising.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 9, 2014

I said this:
You've yet to prove that God changes anyone before they believe.

heymikey80 said:
As youre having trouble with perfect tense, don't miss that your trouble doesnt dissolve what 1 John 5:1 says.

First, this reply is irrelevant to my comment. Second, the trouble is with your failure to understand how present participles act. Get a Greek grammar text.

And you should know by now that saying "total" or even stating your opinion doesn't carry it as true.

The difference between us that I back up my opinions with facts and Scripture that actually says what I believe.

Once again, I point out your emotions about what Scripture says in black & white doesn't lead me to any different conclusion about what Scripture says.

Why bring up my emotions, when there haven't been any? Is this just another smokescreen deflection of yours?

It is an interesting problem for your argument. You say that God doesnt change people before belief. And I would say God gives people a heart that changes because of belief.

Actually, I do agree with your statement, which does not refute mine. The phrase "because of belief" does mean that the change occurs after belief.

I had thought to point out that God gives people to repent, that is clear in Scripture.

And I don't disagree. What does "give people to repent" mean? It means that God gives PERMISSION to repent, obviously. Scripture does NOT say that God gives repentance to people, which is apparently how Calvinists understand it.

But that's NOT what the Bible says. To "grant" means to give permission.

The take home is that God never refuses to grant permission for people to repent.

As repentance is the only thing that changes your mind, it is what you want to do. And God changes it.

Wrong. There are no verses that say that God changes our minds. In fact, Jesus gave a parable about a prodigal son who "came to his (own) senses". Nothing in that parable about God or the son's father changing his mind. He changed his own mind, when he came to his senses.

But of course this arrives ★with faith.

So many of your sentences make no sense. Like this one. I have no idea what your point is. Sowhat "arrives (star) with faith"? That makes no sense. Please define what "this" is.

You are looking for something no one holds.

What makes one think that I am looking for something. I have found the truth in Scripture and gladly share it with others. If one isn't interested in truth, that's between them and God alone. All I do is share and explain.

He gives to people to come to Him, He changes hearts and He doesnt look to what that heart wants, as if a sinful heart should dictate His actions to Him.

1. He gives permission to people to come to Him
2. He changes hearts of those who have believed. It's called regeneration.
3. The last thing mentioned makes no sense.

heymikey80 · Jun 11, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
First, this reply is irrelevant to my comment. Second, the trouble is with your failure to understand how present participles act. Get a Greek grammar text.

Already been trained. Get a Greek course or two by a real prof, and then you can confront your own prof with your claim.

I have cited two grammars that contradict your version of Mounce, and indeed quoted Mounce's translation in their reverse interlinear.

Contact Mounce with your view. We would love to hear his answer ... word for word.

You have not shown a single verse that says new birth arrives after or because of faith. In fact no one who understands Greek grammar could say faithprecedes new birth. Because, either in time or in action, the perfect tense of the verb at 1 Jn 5:1 sets birth as the precedent of faith. For everyone. Explicitly, as written.

EmSw · Jun 11, 2014

heymikey80 said:
Already been trained. Get a Greek course or two by a real prof, and then you can confront your own prof with your claim.

I have cited two grammars that contradict your version of Mounce, and indeed quoted Mounce's translation in their reverse interlinear.

Contact Mounce with your view. We would love to hear his answer ... word for word.

You have not shown a single verse that says new birth arrives after or because of faith. In fact no one who understands Greek grammar could say faithprecedes new birth. Because, either in time or in action, the perfect tense of the verb at 1 Jn 5:1 sets birth as the precedent of faith. For everyone. Explicitly, as written.

How can one be born again except an incorruptible seed has been planted first in good soil? How can an incorruptible seed (the Living Word) produce anything except it is first believed?

Surely you aren't saying the Word can have any affect without faith? If that's the case, then anyone who just hears the Word will be born again.

1 Peter 1:23
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

FreeGrace2 · Jun 12, 2014

heymikey80 said:
Already been trained. Get a Greek course or two by a real prof, and then you can confront your own prof with your claim.

I have cited two grammars that contradict your version of Mounce,

I don't have a "version" of Mounce. I quoted him directly.

You have not shown a single verse that says new birth arrives after or because of faith.

Yes, I have. But it takes eyes that see and ears that hear.

But I'll do it again, and ask for a clear explanation of HOW the verses DON'T mean what they say.

Eph 2:5 equates made alive" with "being saved". v.8 says we are saved through faith. So, since faith precedes salvation, faith also precedes being made alive. Quite simple.

Your turn.

In fact no one who understands Greek grammar could say faithprecedes new birth. Because, either in time or in action, the perfect tense of the verb at 1 Jn 5:1 sets birth as the precedent of faith.

No, not "faith", as in initial faith. But PRESENT faith. Way different.

iow, those presenting believing HAVE BEEN born again. The grammar rules SAY that present participles (believing ones) occurs AT THE SAME TIME AS THE ACTION OF THE MAIN VERB (born again).

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