Calvinism Question

[DeaconDean]

Gill sure adds a lot of commentary which isn't even in the passage. Nothing is said of being regenerated. What he won't say is what the passage actually says -

'...then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil...'

I don't need any outside, natural help to understand this. But of course, man wants to change what doesn't fit his theology. He will cleverly explain it in a fashion which delights his heart.

I am wondering why Israel needed regeneration to do good. Aren't they God's chosen people? Haven't they been under the hand of God for many years, and in Jeremiah's time, God hadn't regenerated them yet?

First off, let me apologize for my earlier comments.

Secondly, can you show me where Israel was "re-generated" in the OT to begin with?

AS I have shown you previously, "regeneration" is a work done exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and according to the scriptures, in the OT, the Holy Spirit while being here, was not given yet.

So, my answer would be no.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[EmSw]

First off, let me apologize for my earlier comments.

I accept your apology. No harm done.

Secondly, can you show me where Israel was "re-generated" in the OT to begin with?

I will try. First off, I will take the passages which state how Israel was regenerated, that is, received a new heart.

Ezekiel 18 -
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

We see in Ezekiel, how Israel was to receive a new heart. It was by casting away all their transgressions. I don't think anyone has a problem with Israel receiving a new heart and new spirit with these words, although, some might.

Now we need to look at another Biblical doctrine, that is, God never changes. God has an order by which Israel received a new heart. This is God's way and truth for the people of Israel.

Sin residing within the heart is the cause of man's death, for we see God telling Israel to turn themselves and live. Sin wasn't unique to Israel, it applies to every man, through all ages. Man, with a sinful, unregenerate heart will die.

God gave Israel the remedy for death, that is, a new heart, from which all transgressions were removed. Remove the old, replace it with the new. This theme (man removing sin) is interwoven throughout the whole Bible.

Since God never changes, why would man think God has changed and is doing it differently now? I believe the problem is that man wants it changed, and will do whatever to change God's way. If man does not like God's ways, he will make it palatable with himself, and search explicitly to find that which delights his unregenerate heart.

Once he finds a suitable way for regeneration, he will find great pleasure in it, and will defend it vigorously. And because he loves it so much from himself, he cannot see the truth, even plainly laid out before his eyes.

AS I have shown you previously, "regeneration" is a work done exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and according to the scriptures, in the OT, the Holy Spirit while being here, was not given yet.

The Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, John 15:26, John 16:13). The Spirit only works through truth. The Spirit regenerates man by truth, which we know His Word is Truth -

Samuel 7:28 Now, O Lord God, You are God, and Your words are truth...

Psalm 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth...

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

James 1:18
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth,

It is by the truth of God's word that man is regenerated. Peter says in 1 Peter 1:23 -
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

It is only through the truth of God's word that a man can be born again, or regenerated. This is how the Spirit regenerates man, through truth.

If a man does not believe the truth revealed in God's word, he cannot be regenerated. If a man desires to be regenerated any other way, he is only deceiving himself. If God's truth tells us to cast away all our transgressions to make ourselves a new heart, then man has no other way to be regenerated.

It would not be wise to reject, disbelieve, nor ignore God's truth; it is the only way man receives eternal life.

So, my answer would be no.

I think I have said enough in this post; I will respond to your statement that Israel was not regenerated in a following post.

 

[DeaconDean]

I accept your apology. No harm done.



I will try. First off, I will take the passages which state how Israel was regenerated, that is, received a new heart.

Ezekiel 18 -
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

We see in Ezekiel, how Israel was to receive a new heart. It was by casting away all their transgressions. I don't think anyone has a problem with Israel receiving a new heart and new spirit with these words, although, some might.

Now we need to look at another Biblical doctrine, that is, God never changes. God has an order by which Israel received a new heart. This is God's way and truth for the people of Israel.

Sin residing within the heart is the cause of man's death, for we see God telling Israel to turn themselves and live. Sin wasn't unique to Israel, it applies to every man, through all ages. Man, with a sinful, unregenerate heart will die.

God gave Israel the remedy for death, that is, a new heart, from which all transgressions were removed. Remove the old, replace it with the new. This theme (man removing sin) is interwoven throughout the whole Bible.

Since God never changes, why would man think God has changed and is doing it differently now? I believe the problem is that man wants it changed, and will do whatever to change God's way. If man does not like God's ways, he will make it palatable with himself, and search explicitly to find that which delights his unregenerate heart.

Once he finds a suitable way for regeneration, he will find great pleasure in it, and will defend it vigorously. And because he loves it so much from himself, he cannot see the truth, even plainly laid out before his eyes.



The Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, John 15:26, John 16:13). The Spirit only works through truth. The Spirit regenerates man by truth, which we know His Word is Truth -

Samuel 7:28 Now, O Lord God, You are God, and Your words are truth...

Psalm 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth...

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

James 1:18
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth,

It is by the truth of God's word that man is regenerated. Peter says in 1 Peter 1:23 -
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

It is only through the truth of God's word that a man can be born again, or regenerated. This is how the Spirit regenerates man, through truth.

If a man does not believe the truth revealed in God's word, he cannot be regenerated. If a man desires to be regenerated any other way, he is only deceiving himself. If God's truth tells us to cast away all our transgressions to make ourselves a new heart, then man has no other way to be regenerated.

It would not be wise to reject, disbelieve, nor ignore God's truth; it is the only way man receives eternal life.



I think I have said enough in this post; I will respond to your statement that Israel was not regenerated in a following post.

John Hyndryx answeres the question on Exekiel better than I:

what is the significance of Ezekiel 11:18-20, where God apparently promises to grant regeneration only later (after Christ?).
Notice the wording that Jesus uses in John 14 about the promise of the Spirit...

16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."
​

Jesus claims in this passage that the disciples KNOW the Spirit already because he is ABIDES WITH YOU [the disciples]... but notice His change up here -- AND WILL BE IN YOU. This is a future tense of an indwelling. Apparently the saints of the OT enjoyed regeneration but may not have enjoyed indwelling to the extent that we do. Regeneration and indwelling are not exactly the same the same for in regeneration the Spirit works to illumine our minds and renew our hearts prior to our faith in which He comes to indwell us. That pre-salvific action is not called indwelling. "WITH YOU" and "IN YOU" appear to demonstrate qualitative differences.

So, the passage on Eze. 18 describes a future event.

Nice try.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, if a leopard cannot change its spots, you tell me that an unbeliever is able to become a believer just from "free will"?

I just told you that there is no equivalency between spots and belief. Further, you didn't read far enough into that very interesting passage:

Jeremiah 13:23
“Can the Ethiopian change his skin
Or the leopard his spots?
Then you also can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.

It's not nice to quote on the half of a verse you want for support. Esp when the other half actually refutes your own view.

Wrong.

Again, your assumption is denied.

John Gill comments:

Source

Uh huh. Sure. Quote a Calvinist. To support Calvinism. Right.

Except it doesn't work that way. If one wants support for their own view, they MUST go to Scripture for support, not others with whom you already agree with.

[/QUOTE]Hahaha.

Where does it say David changed his own spot? [/QUOTE]
I never said he did. Please read the WHOLE verse at Jer 13:23. For context.

Again, see comments by Gill.

Hahaha.

Yea, yea.

Glad of you to agree.

Being King of Israel, he had to be anointed, and being anointed also meant, just as Saul, David had the Spirit upon him.

OK, so what is the point you're trying to make?

So I say King David was led, by the Spirit to pray the prayer in Psa. 51.

The point that is being missed by a mile is that David CHOSE for God to clean up his own heart. It was "dirty" from his sin, and he knew it, and wanted it clean.

According to the logic (?) of Calvinism, people are unable to make such a choice.

But again, what were they prior to salvation?

Totally missing the point, again. Rom 6:16 is directed TO believers, not those prior to believing. But to answer your question, unsaved is the answer, which has nothing to do with the discussion.

It does show that the "will" is subject to the heart, therefore it is not "free".

What you're missing is that the heart isn't locked into a single path. The heart is free to make choices. The problem is treating the heart as if it has only 2 directions; one for the unsaved and one for the saved. That is ridiculous. Even believers can and do act just like unbelievers, and that alone refutes the RT notions.

How so?

Whatever you said was irrelevant. Please go back for the context of why I said it was irrelevant and I'll explain it to you. When people leave out context when they post, makes posting difficult.

Aren't you the big advocate that ,man, by reson of his God given ability to choose, cann all of a sudden stop doing evil and good good?

I'm an advocate of Scripture. Please read the WHOLE verse: Jer 13:23.

According to scripture, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Free from what?

The bondage to sin.

Excuse me, but you've missed the first part of what Jesus said. I guess for convenience.

John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Jesus gave a conditional statement, which begins with "IF". Those who "continue in His word will know the truth and set them free.

If your still in bondage to sin, your not saved to begin with.

Nonsense. There are many believers who are in bondage to sin. Your PollyAnna view of the Christian life does not comport with Scripture.

Wow! Talk about taking text out of context!?!

Hardly. 1 Cor 7:21 proves my point about slaves who are free to think for themselves. Again, the problem and error of RT is their view that a slave loves where he is and doesn't want to change. That is simply ridiculous.

If your an indentured servant, seek not to be free, for while your a servant, you can be a witness for Jesus. But if you can gain freedom, from servitude, do so.

Proving my point.

Actually, it is. As shown, the "will" is involuntary. It is governed by the heart.

Actually, the error here is in thinking that somehow the "will" is a separate "thing" from the heart. Our will is "the act or process of volition (choice)". Neither the "heart" nor the "will" governs the other. They are inextricably intertwined.

They may think about it, they may want it, but that does not change the fact that they are slaves.

Which isn't the point. The point is that even a slave is free to think. Which you've acknowleged here.

The issue is freedom of thought. And you've just agreed with my point that even slaves can think about freedom, and want it.

RT needs to adjust it thinking about slavery. It doesn't mean a slave loves his position and only thinks about it.

Wrong. as shown previously.

Yes, I agree here. It was wrong to claim that the will is either sovereign or a servant.

Again, just because they may want their freedom, wants don't change a thing.

The issue is freedom of thought, not whether one is a slave or not.

The FACT that you've acknowledged that a slave may want their freedom PROVES that they are not "locked in" to a slave mentality. They are free to think about freedom.

Just as an unbeliever, though a slave to sin, doesn't mean he loves sin and wants nothing else. Seems RT is totally unaware of that.

 

[extraordinary]

Remember my righteousness threads and verses?

Nope.

That's exactly one of your problems.

Another one that you and Stanley have is ...
you cannot seem to comprehend what 1 John 1:7--2:1 is saying!

Yes, methinks we need a refresher course on the many ways a believer can lose his/her salvation.
Comin' right up!
.

 

[stan1953]

That's exactly one of your problems.
Another one that you and Stanley have is ...
you cannot seem to comprehend what 1 John 1:7--2:1 is saying!
.

The only problem I see here is YOU not being able to support nor qualify your claims or assertions. Of course if you know me as you claim, you know whatever you say will be refuted, so I guess I understand your reticence in saying anything.

 

[EmSw]

John Hyndryx answeres the question on Exekiel better than I:

So, Israel during Ezekiel's time, to whom these passages were written, had no choice but to die in their transgressions. They could not be regenerated, even though God gave them truth which said they could.

I will continue my earlier post here, responding to your assumption that Israel was not regenerated.

Since RT thinks unregenerate man can do nothing good, cannot understand God's word, hates God, cannot have faith, and other hell-deserving traits, please tell us how Israel received the commandments of God, were called God's chosen, could obey God's commands, and loved God?

re: Regeneration and Faith

Let's look at Hebrews 11. Please tell me how these people had faith without regeneration? I am sure you know RT believes a man cannot have faith without regeneration.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain...
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; ...
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household...
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance...
11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive...

re: Regeneration and Doing Good and Right

Since RT teaches man can do nothing good on his own, please explain how the unregenerate people of Israel could do good and right before God.

Exodus 15:26
And He said, If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the Lord your God, and do what is right in His sight,

Deuteronomy 6:18
You shall do what is right and good in the sight of the Lord,

Deuteronomy 12:28
Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God.

1 Kings 14:8
and tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you—yet you have not been like My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only that which was right in My sight;

Please notice that David kept God's commandments and followed Him with all his heart - all this without being regenerated.

1 Kings 15:11
Asa did what was right in the sight of the Lord, like David his father.

2 Chronicles 24:2
Joash did what was right in the sight of the Lord

re: Regeneration and Salvation

Since RT teaches salvation is impossible without regeneration, please explain how the following OT people were saved without regeneration.

Abel, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Job, Asa, David, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Micah, and many, many others.

re: Regeneration and Inspiration

Without regeneration, please explain how the following people were able to be inspired by God and write His truth.

Moses, Joshua, David, Job, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and others.

I personally think RT digs a deeper hole for itself saying OT people were not regenerated.

So, the passage on Eze. 18 describes a future event.

Nice try.

A future event you say. Well, then you must be saying Ezekiel gives directions for the NT man to receive a new heart. Shall I repeat them here?

If they are 'future events', then why does RT not believe them? Why doesn't RT say a man must cast away all his transgressions to make himself a new heart? Why does RT choose the way a man receives a new heart, instead of proclaiming God's way?

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's exactly one of your problems.

Another one that you and Stanley have is ...
you cannot seem to comprehend what 1 John 1:7--2:1 is saying!

Well, why not just tell me, then? I know exactly what it says, and I explained it, but please tell me what you think it is saying.

Yes, methinks we need a refresher course on the many ways a believer can lose his/her salvation.
Comin' right up!
.

Consider this: if a believer can lose his/her salvation, then God just doesn't keep His promises. That's not the God of the Bible. No way.

Anyway, I'd appreciate an exegesis of 1 Jn 1:7-2:1.

 

[stan1953]

I think many of us would like some kind of response other than "I'm right and you're wrong".

 

[extraordinary]

.
Okay, you guys, here's the appropriate response AGAIN ...

"But IF we (continue to) walk in the light as He is in the light,
we (continue to) have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus Christ His Son (continues to) cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
IF we (continue to) confess (repent of) our sins,
He is faithful and just to (continue to) forgive us our sins
and to (continue to) cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
(1 John 1:7-2:1)
Derek Prince explained that the Greek verbs here are all continuous verbs.

Proverbs 28:13 “He who covers his sins will not prosper,
but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

 

[DeaconDean]

Folks, suffice to say, EmSw has said previously that:

Regeneration is a new heart. This only comes by casting away all our transgressions. Casting away ALL our transgressions takes time, is a lifelong endeavor. According to God's truth, we are given a new heart after casting away ALL our transgressions.

Regeneration is something we do, not the Holy Spirit, and, it takes a lifetime to do it.

He also throws out Eze. 18 as a means to support his theology.

But read Eze. 36:

"I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." vs. 25-27 (KJV)

Jesus emphasizes being born-again to Nicodemus:

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." _jn. 3:3,5 (KJV)

Which again, shows that to be generated again, (cf. Jn. 3:3,5) and to receive a new heart, (cf. Eze. 36) is a work of God. Not man.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon said:

And, my brethren, it is quite certain that no man ever begins the new birth himself. The work of salvation never was commenced by any man. God the Holy Spirit must commence it. Now, the reasons why no man ever commenced the work of grace in his own heart, is very plain and palpable. First, because he cannot; secondly, because he won't. The best reason of all is, because he cannot—he is dead. Well the dead may be made alive, but the dead cannot make themselves alive, for the dead can do nothing. Besides, the new thing to be created as yet hath no being. The uncreated cannot create. "Nay," but you say, "that man can create." Yes, can hell create heaven? Then sin may create grace. What! will you tell me that fallen human nature, that has come almost to a level with the brutes, is competent to rival God; that it can emulate the divinity in working as great marvels, and in imparting as divine a life as even God himself can give? It cannot. Besides, it is a creation; we are created anew in Christ Jesus. Let any man create a fly, and afterwards let him create a new heart in himself; until he hath done the less he cannot do the greater.

C.H. Spurgeon, The Work of the Holy Spirit, November 5, 1858.

FreeGrace2 and EmSw want to set the Old Testament against the New Testament.

They use "regeneration" as a bat to beat others on the head.

The New Testament always shows "indwelling" to be the direct result of "regeneration".

Yet "indwelling" was not an occurance in the OT as in the NT.

Numerous times in the OT we see individuals who had the hand of God upon them in order to accomplish God's work. (cf. Chrn. 30:11-12)

And due to the annointing of Kings, they had the Spirit upon them, as in the case of Saul.

However, set against this is the fact that in the OT, the Spirit was able to come upon a person, and also leave.

But in the NT, that does not happen.

In the OT, the Holy Spirit was not given yet.

However, we see a dramatic declaration of the arrival of the Holy Spirit on "Pentecost". And, He has been here ever since.

Titus 3:5 attributes everything associated with regeneration to the Holy Spirit.

Yet:

Regeneration is a new heart. This only comes by casting away all our transgressions. Casting away ALL our transgressions takes time, is a lifelong endeavor. According to God's truth, we are given a new heart after casting away ALL our transgressions.

Charles Hodge says:

With regard to the office of the Spirit in the work of redemption, the Scriptures teach, —

1. That He fashioned the body, and endued the human soul of Christ with every qualification for his work. To the Virgin Mary it was said, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke i. 35.) The prophet Isaiah predicted that the Messiah should be replenished with all spiritual gifts. “Behold my servant whom I uphold; mine elect in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” (Is. xlii. 1.) “There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots: and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.” (Is. xi. 1, 2.) When our Lord appeared on earth, it is said that the Spirit without measure was given unto Him. (John iii. 34.) “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.” (John i. 32.) He was, therefore, said to have been full of the Holy Ghost.

2. That the Spirit is the revealer of all divine truth. The doctrines of the Bible are called the things of the Spirit. With regard to the writers of the Old Testament, it is said they spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The language of Micah is applicable to all the prophets, “Truly I am full of power by the Spirit of the Lord, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression and to Israel his sin.” (Micah iii. 8.) What David said, the Holy Ghost is declared to have said. The New Testament writers were in like manner the organs of the Spirit. The doctrines which Paul preached he did not receive from men “but God,” he says, “hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit.” (1 Cor. ii. 10.) The Spirit also guided the utterance of those truths; for he adds, “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; communicating the things of the Spirit in the words of the Spirit” (πνευματικοῖς πνευματικὰ συγκρίνοντε&#962. The whole Bible, therefore, is to be referred to the Spirit as its author.

3. The Spirit not only thus reveals divine truth, having guided infallibly holy men of old in recording it, but He everywhere attends it by his power. All truth is enforced on the heart and conscience with more or less power by the Holy Spirit, wherever that truth is known. To this all-pervading influence we are indebted for all there is of morality and order in the world. But besides this general influence, which is usually called common grace, the Spirit specially illuminates the minds of the children of God, that they may knew the things freely given (or revealed to them) by God. The natural man does not receive them, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. All believers are therefore called (πνευματικο&#8055 spiritual, because thus enlightened and guided by the Spirit.
4. It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny.
5. The Spirit also calls men to office in the Church, and endows them with the qualifications necessary for the successful discharge of its duties. The office of the Church, in this matter, is simply to ascertain and authenticate the call of the Spirit. Thus the Holy Ghost is the immediate author of all truth, of all holiness, of all consolation, of all authority, and of all efficiency in the children of God individually, and in the Church collectively.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Volume I, Theology Proper, Chapter 8, The Holy Spirit, 2. The Office of the Holy Spirit, pp. 531-532

AS a Baptist, I believe:

We believe that, in order to be saved, sinners must be regenerated, or born again; that regeneration consists in giving a holy disposition to the mind; that it is effected in a manner above our comprehension by the power of the Holy Spirit, in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; and that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance, and faith, and newness of life.

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833

And:

Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone.

Abstract of Ptrinciples, James P. Boyce, Section 8, Regeneration

If you don't want to accept it, what else can I say.

Regeneration, as something man does, claiming to take for themselves a work of the Holy Spirit as theirs...

I want nothing to do with them.

Congratulations, you just made my ignore list.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[stan1953]

.
Okay, you guys, here's the appropriate response AGAIN ...

"But IF we (continue to) walk in the light as He is in the light,
we (continue to) have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus Christ His Son (continues to) cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
IF we (continue to) confess (repent of) our sins,
He is faithful and just to (continue to) forgive us our sins
and to (continue to) cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
(1 John 1:7-2:1)
Derek Prince explained that the Greek verbs here are all continuous verbs.

Proverbs 28:13 “He who covers his sins will not prosper,
but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Well this appears to be some version with your words added, which would make it a paraphrase. Why not just quote a modern English translation?

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I have no problem with any of this, so unless you are prepared to exegete it, it means exactly to me what it always has.

 

[FreeGrace2]

.
Okay, you guys, here's the appropriate response AGAIN ...

"But IF we (continue to) walk in the light as He is in the light,
we (continue to) have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus Christ His Son (continues to) cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
IF we (continue to) confess (repent of) our sins,
He is faithful and just to (continue to) forgive us our sins
and to (continue to) cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
(1 John 1:7-2:1)
Derek Prince explained that the Greek verbs here are all continuous verbs.

Proverbs 28:13 “He who covers his sins will not prosper,
but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Could you provide some explanation of why this passage supports the idea that salvation can be lost, because I sure don't see any words that mean that.

Thanks.

 

[extraordinary]

Could you provide some explanation of why this passage supports the idea that salvation can be lost,
because I sure don't see any words that mean that. Thanks.

Righteousness is a necessary attribute of those who have eternal life (several ref. available).

This favorite passage of mine, 1 John 1:7--2:1, explains how God will "cleanse us from all unrighteousness",
i.e. daily or whenever we confess/repent of our sins.
.

 

[stan1953]

As I have failed to get any valid response from eo and I broke my left hand today, I'm bowing out and letting FG2 deal with this.

 

[EmSw]

Folks, suffice to say, EmSw has said previously that:

Regeneration is something we do, not the Holy Spirit, and, it takes a lifetime to do it.

He also throws out Eze. 18 as a means to support his theology.

First of all Deacon, I never said regeneration had nothing to do with the Spirit. Let's not spread lies before the people.

I know the truth of Ezekiel 18 is hard for some to swallow; nevertheless, it is God's truth. Anyone has the free will to either accept it or deny it. What I find amazing is RT will deny this truth of God even if they have to trample it underfoot.

But read Eze. 36:

"I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." vs. 25-27 (KJV)

Let's give the rest of the story; you have pulled certain verses which only give a portion of what was written.

16 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying,
17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
18 Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
19 Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.
20 When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land.’
21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.

Israel, chosen by God, the elect of God, defiled their ways and deeds, even profaning God's name. Therefore, God poured out His wrath on His own chosen people. God judged them by their ways and deeds.

And as we see in verse 28, because of their sins, they were no longer God's people, nor was the Creator their God any longer (You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God).

So this was the plight of Israel when we read verses 25 - 27, which RT loves to pull out of context and apply it to themselves. However, this applied to Israel when God brought them back into the land He gave them, not hundreds of years down the road. In fact, God distinctly divided Israel and the nations (Gentiles) into two separate groups and this was not given to the nations, but to Israel only. Yet the Gentiles want to apply this to themselves and not to the nation of Israel which existed at the time of Ezekiel's writings.

Jesus emphasizes being born-again to Nicodemus:

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." _jn. 3:3,5 (KJV)

Which again, shows that to be generated again, (cf. Jn. 3:3,5) and to receive a new heart, (cf. Eze. 36) is a work of God. Not man.

I wonder why Deacon thinks I don't believe it is a work of God. Ezekiel states that man must cast away all his transgressions to make for himself a new heart. God isn't going to cast away your transgressions for you; this is done by man with God's help.

RT thinks God will cleanse and remove man's sins at regeneration, yet, when we see every man who claims to be regenerated, sin abounds in their heart. Did God fail at removing man's sins? If RT is correct, every born again man will have his sins removed by God; but this wayward thought utterly fails.

FreeGrace2 and EmSw want to set the Old Testament against the New Testament.

On the contrary, I see the OT and NT fitting together like twins.

They use "regeneration" as a bat to beat others on the head.

No need for me to beat others with a bat, their sins, if not removed from their hearts, will take care of that very well!

The New Testament always shows "indwelling" to be the direct result of "regeneration".

Yet "indwelling" was not an occurance in the OT as in the NT.

RT has one of its greatest pitfalls if they believe OT saints were not regenerated. All one has to do, is remember what RT believes an unregenerated man can and cannot do to see they are in a bind here.

Numerous times in the OT we see individuals who had the hand of God upon them in order to accomplish God's work. (cf. Chrn. 30:11-12)

On the unregenerate OT saints no less.

And due to the annointing of Kings, they had the Spirit upon them, as in the case of Saul.

However, set against this is the fact that in the OT, the Spirit was able to come upon a person, and also leave.

But in the NT, that does not happen.

In the OT, the Holy Spirit was not given yet.

RT needs to explain how the OT saints loved, obeyed, served, and knew God while unregenerated.

However, we see a dramatic declaration of the arrival of the Holy Spirit on "Pentecost". And, He has been here ever since.

Titus 3:5 attributes everything associated with regeneration to the Holy Spirit.

If you don't want to accept it, what else can I say.

Regeneration, as something man does, claiming to take for themselves a work of the Holy Spirit as theirs...

So you are saying none of the disciples were regenerated until Pentecost. Yet, they came to Jesus and believed His word, all the while in a unregenerate state. There is some explaining to do here.

I want nothing to do with them.

I realize it is difficult to answer the questions I gave you Deacon from a RT perspective, but to treat a brother this way is not according to Jesus' teachings.

Congratulations, you just made my ignore list.

I have a sneaky suspicioun Ezekiel 18:31 has made the same list.

I am wondering if any other Reformer would like to take up Deacon's mantle. He failed to answer some very revealing questions I asked, and I can't blame him.

Please see post 115 if you would like to answer these questions. Thank you.

 

[heymikey80]

My question was ignored again. This response doesn't answer my question.

Here it is again:
Where does the verse specifically SAY that God chooses who will believe? I don't see any words that form that thought.

Seems your response was an attempt to rationalize your view into the text.

The problem is that there are no verses that say clearly that God chooses who will believe, which doesn't seem to bother Calvinists, but should.

There is Scripture that clearly says who God is pleased to save (1 Cor 1:21). It should be clear to anyone that God chooses to do what pleases Him.

iow, God chooses (is well pleased to) save those who believe.

There is nothing in Scripture about God choosing who will believe.

Calvinists need to recalibrate.

1 Cor 1:21? God was pleased to save people through preaching.

By this logic people are only chosen by preaching, too.

If at some point you wish to hold your own views accountable to the challenge you make against the views outside your head, I might find it interesting. But this, no, I don't even consider it realistic, much less definitive.

1 Thess 2:13 thanks God that people actually accepted the Gospel as real.

John 6:63-65 remains unaddressed. Jesus says people will not believe unless God gives it to them to come to Him. So Jesus has punched ahead of your inaccurate interpretation if 1 Cor 1:21. God gives to some people. God does not give this to other people. Jesus Himself said so, and said that was why people believed and didn't believe, why people did or didn't come to Jesus.

The idea that you can dictate "pleasure" as choice, but "giving" as forced out of God, not His choice, I don't find realistic. God alone restrains His choices. Does God owe it to give, or not?

I remark on the irony that you would ignore Jesus saying "People don't believe! This is why I told God doesn't give it to them to come to Me." And you respond claiming Scripture doesn't say why people don't believe. He just said this was why He said it. I would advise learning the meaning of what Jesus said.

 

[heymikey80]

I absolutely agree with you Skala, unregenerate man is spiritually dead, and he certainly acts the way that Paul described in Ephesians 2. There’s no question about that. What confuses me is the Calvinist interpretation of what “dead” means. The Calvinist wants me to believe that the unsaved CANNOT believe, because dead people can’t believe. That makes sense, until the Calvinist also wants me to believe that the unsaved CAN sin, even though dead people can’t sin! I agree with you that a corpse can’t do anything good. But it can’t do anything bad, either. You used the example of decay and connected it to sin. But I’m not sure we can compare the two. Decay isn’t something that a corpse actively chooses to do, it’s something that happens to a corpse. Sin doesn’t just happen to the unsaved; the unsaved actively choose to sin. If being dead doesn’t mean that they can’t sin, why should it mean that they can’t believe?

Ok, so you're having trouble with the illustration of spiritual death for being unbelief. The way Calvinists look at this is "living in 1 world (flesh) or the other (spirit)", so the basic idea of "dead to spiritual world" is reflective of this model.

it is essentially an inability of the person to consider that world as real. He doesn't dwell in that world, and doesn't recognize it at work in his life. He doesn't sense it as real. So the reason for associating unbelief with spiritual death is due to the inability to relate to the spiritual world.

Yet the spiritual world is real. It is where God dwells, and where good is distinguished from evil. So there is a moral wrong in neglecting the world of the spirit. It is tantamount to neglecting the difference between right and wrong.

 

[sdowney717]

Originally Posted by Gavino

That makes sense, until the Calvinist also wants me to believe that the unsaved CAN sin, even though dead people can’t sin!

Dead people can and do sin, this statement makes no sense to me.
They are not mentally dead, they think, feel with emotion, react to stimuli, they have reasoning power, desires, communicate with demons and other people.

Spiritually dead people just have spiritually dead minds and are not new creatures, new creation of God in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Righteousness is a necessary attribute of those who have eternal life (several ref. available).

Instead of mentioning what is available, why not rather just provide them?

This favorite passage of mine, 1 John 1:7--2:1, explains how God will "cleanse us from all unrighteousness",
i.e. daily or whenever we confess/repent of our sins.

The context of this cleansing is our daily sins. Please recall what Jesus said to His 12 disciples the during the passover supper recorded in John 13. As He was washing the feet of the 12, Peter said He wouldn't wash his. And Jesus had to give him (and us, by extension) a lesson on what is meant by cleansing.

John 13:8
Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”

Jesus wasn't referring to salvation here, but fellowship (same theme in 1 Jn).

John 13:9
Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”
John 13:10
Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

Here, Peter continues his confusion by asking for a full bath, but Jesus replies that he is already clean, but just needs his feet cleaned because of walking around in the world (a necessity in that time period, since the "streets/roads" were filled with animal excrement!!).

The figurative meaning is that one who has had a bath and is "completely clean" refers to being saved. But still needs the daily forgiveness of sins that occur as one walks in the world.

John 13:11
For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

This verse clearly indicates that Jesus was referring to being SAVED by being "completely clean" from a bath, but still needing feet cleaning. Judas was not saved ever.

So, the issue for believers is for daily confession of sin in order to "have a part" with Christ, meaning fellowship, not getting saved again, or maintaining salvation.