Live by grace and/or commandments?

halfsaved said:

First of all, I'm talking talking about the 10 commandments we all know about. I'm referring to all the different commands that are all throughout the new testament.

While listening to radio shows like Chuck Swindoll, he'll reference a scripture, and say, "That's a command!". I've been hearing this so much that it dawned on me that there are quite a few of them. The 10 of the old testament would easy compared to what I found....

Just now, I went to google and typed in 'commands in the bible". The first entry took me by surprise. It indicated 1,050 of them. Looking them over, I'm not sure I'd label ALL of them as commands, but even if 100 of them were, I'd like to know just how important you think it is that we keep them all. Jesus did say something like, "If you love me, keep my commandments".

I've always heard we are saved by grace by accepting Christ's gift of salvation, and there's nothing we can do to add to that. Then I see 1,050 (or maybe even 100) times where we're told to do this or do that, and then we're told by pastors, "They aren't suggestions, they are commands".

What should I take from this?

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The OT commandments and laws were for the Jews, not for Gentiles. Christ came to fulfill the law that we might live in Grace. His commandments in the NT are now for us, not to be saved by, but by obedience to those who by faith love him as our Lord.

Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. If you are living by those standards, what commandment are you going to break?

Our salvation comes only by grace, we can't earn it, no amount of works will save you only the blood of Christ.

Hi halfsaved. Nice topic! ^.^

Here is a list of the "top forty" commands of Jesus put together by some friends of mine.

1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15 , John 14:21 , John 14:23 ; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12 , Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15 , Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35 , John 9:4 , John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3 , Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27 , Matthew 6:24-33 , Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30 , Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41 , Luke 12:33 , Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25 , Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30 , Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30 , Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1 , 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4 , 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58 , Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26 , Matthew 6:12 , Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3 , Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3 , Luke 18:17 , Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

RBPerry said:

Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. If you are living by those standards, what commandment are you going to break?

Our salvation comes only by grace, we can't earn it, no amount of works will save you only the blood of Christ.

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Yes, RBperry, you are correct that Jesus singled out these two commands as the greatest, but too often I see people mentioning this as though the other commands are insignificant in comparison. I'm not saying you are doing that, but just speaking from experience.

All those other "smaller" commands really are important because they show us HOW to fulfill the two greatest.

I think number forty on your list, tremble, is a sobering reminder to how we should be viewing these commandments from Jesus. It's not that we're following these commands to earn bonus points, and it's not that we're obeying them to save ourselves, we're obeying them because "it is our duty".

I agree with dragongunner, that in the OT there are loads and loads of laws and commands, which simply don't apply to us as non-Jews, and even if you are Jewish, God made it pretty clear through Jesus that he's not looking for those things anymore, he has a new message for salvation.

If we are truly born again, the Holy Spirit will lead our daily lives. When I have a decision to make, or question my actions or attitude I seek His guidance. If He told me to quite drinking milk, I would without question, why, because I want to live my life the way I believe Jesus would want me to.
The Bible gives us many guidelines on how to live our lives, I read a chapter of Proverbs every day, why, it just helps me stay focused. I also read the beatitudes regularly for the same reason. It isn't so much about the rules as it is living by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then all the rules just come naturally.

3 times in my walk with Christ I focused in on obeying rules/commands. All three times the Holy Spirit backed on and I felt pretty self-righteous because of the rules I obeyed. But I didn't feel close to God.
Since its more important for me to be close to God I now stay focused on loving God and people. The Words says the only way we can fulfill the law is to love. Indeed, if we focus on obeying, Rom.1-7 pretty much says we wouldn't be obeying all the laws. Paul in Phil. said he counted all this type stuff as lost so that he could know Christ.

Since Jesus came to fulfill the law, we no longer have to live by a set of rules. He laid out some key things to do, and if someone is a Christian, they will want to do them, they will find it in their heart to do so. But if commandments aren't kept, we're not going to be punished for it. We should try our best to do what God wants us to, but aren't living in the Old Testament where we have to live in a legalistic set of rules with fear of punishment if we don't follow them perfectly.

dayhiker said:

3 times in my walk with Christ I focused in on obeying rules/commands. All three times the Holy Spirit backed on and I felt pretty self-righteous because of the rules I obeyed. But I didn't feel close to God.
Since its more important for me to be close to God I now stay focused on loving God and people. The Words says the only way we can fulfill the law is to love. Indeed, if we focus on obeying, Rom.1-7 pretty much says we wouldn't be obeying all the laws. Paul in Phil. said he counted all this type stuff as lost so that he could know Christ.

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If Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit will come to remind us of his commands, and then someone says that the Holy Spirit told them not to follow those commands, I would question what sort of spirit that person has. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I feel it needs to be stated that the Holy Spirit's job is to remind us of the teachings of Jesus. Yes, it can lead us into new truth and help us deal with situations that Jesus didn't specifically teach about, but I can't believe that it would contradict Christ.

Just to make it clear. We are saved by grace through faith and that is not of yourself it is the gift of God, not by works that anyone shall boast". The reason being is that on the Cross, God in bodily form (Jesus) (see also Colossians 2:9) paid for all our sins (past, present, future,) see romans 3:25 and read Hebrews 9-10 and therefore there is no longer any sacrifice for sins. That's God Grace and by faith in what he did you are saved. "if righteousness comes by the law, the Christ died in vain" Galations 2:21. Again paul says in romans 3:31, shall we nullify the law by this faith? no rather we uphold the law". So, it is by faith alone we are saved. However, the law now through faith is in our hearts as God says, "I will make a new covenant and put my laws in their hearts and minds" Jeremiah 31:33. So the one who says we are not under the 10 commandments has no idea what he's saying though he might have a sincere heart, for the commandments say "you shall have no other God but me", "Honor your father an mother". Even James and Paul refers to the 10 commandments in his letter (Ephesians 6:2) (James 2:10). Again we are not under the law (means our righteousness doesn't come from them, for Jesus Fulfilled them for this purpose, because we couldn't, but we are to follow them) Jesus also says "If you love me, you will keep my commands. (John 14:15). [FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. ( 1 John 2:4). [FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. (1 John 2:6)[/font][/font]
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[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']We are saved by faith alone as Jesus always says whoever believes... and the work of God is to believe in his son. That alone saves you, but believing in him means trusting in his blood and not in yourself, which leads you to deny yourself and pick-up your cross and follow him. That means to walk like Jesus (mainly walking in his commands) The commands that Jesus gave all fit in the 10 commandments, but he just spoke the heart of them.[/font]
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Yes, it can lead us into new truth and help us deal with situations that Jesus didn't specifically teach about, but I can't believe that it would contradict Christ.

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The more a believer is devoted to prayer and seeking His guidance the more you recolonize that inner voice of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will never lead you into sin, or in conflict with what Jesus taught. You are correct when you say a believer must be very careful of what he believes God is telling him.

I heard of a man that told his pastor that God told him to divorce his wife and marry someone else. That man was definitely not listening to the Holy Spirit, most likely his own delusional lusts. Our Lords commands are pretty plain and straight forward, it is the human sin nature that makes them difficult to follow at times.

I think the title of this thread would be more appropriate with the "or" removed. Grace and obedience are not opposed to one another.

There are many, many comments from Jesus all throughout the gospels (and throughout the NT from other authors) about the need to obey Jesus.

There are also many comments from Jesus (and other Bible authors) about people who do NOT obey. People who follow Jesus' rules are always commended as faithful.

People who do NOT follow Jesus' rules are always "cast into outer darkness" or in some other way called down for their lack of faith.

I could post a looooong list of verses showing this, but people rarely read those kind of lists. -_-

Anyway, the word "rules" seems to have become a dirty word these days, right along with "obedience" or "commands". Christians appear to be simply terrified of these words, because it's nigh impossible to talk about obedience to Jesus without a stampede of people coming along to lecture about how we don't live under the law anymore, but under grace.

FACT: Jesus expected obedience and he said there will be consequences for rebellion against his authority to demand that we obey him. No amount of arguing about grace will change that or make it go away, because grace and obedience go hand in hand.

The softer side is that there really is a difference between the "law" that Jesus confronted, and his own commands. That difference is that Jesus was giving rules on the values of Heaven which are flexible, but only after we first embrace the obedience and start doing it.

I don't think God wants us to live by rules, but because we are like children who can be stubborn and obstinate so much of the time, we NEED rules to follow, at least at first.

Once we start to practice the rules then we will get a better understanding of WHY the rules exist and we'll start to follow them just because we want to and not because we are ordered to.

I'll give an example. Consider materialism. From the day we are born we are indoctrinated with materialism. We are told that money makes the world go round and happiness is found through buying more stuff. Better house, better car, better entertainment, better food, better clothing, etc... There is always something new to buy.

We are told that we can only buy this happiness IF we force other people to pay us for our love. If they don't pay us, then we do not help them.

Of course, that is completely opposite to what Jesus taught, but we can't see past all the brainwashing at first. We fear changing over to a new system where love makes the world go round. We think we will die without working for money. Most of us won't just naturally go along with such a crazy change of lifestyle.

So, Jesus gave orders. Stop working for all those material things and start working for love, and God will take care of anyone who steps out in faith in him (as opposed to faith in the materialist worldly system of wages).

Once we give this new lifestyle a genuine chance, we will start to see that it really does work. We will start to understand the reasons for why the values of Heaven really are better than the rat race offered by the worldly system of wages. We will not need the rule anymore. We will do it because we've come to see that Jesus' way really is better.

See how something can start as a rule, for our own good, but then become a natural way of life that we will follow without any need for a rule? That's what it's like with Jesus' commands.

halfsaved said:

I wonder if you heard that from me....
I have a friend who got into the Pentacostal movement and started doing some strange things that I found questionable. Went out and got drunk for the first time, then got caught driving that way. He told me the Spirit told him to do it.

Also, his wife left him and went on some "mission" with another man. He says that the Spirit instructed her to do so. Several years later, they were divorced and they both married other people. Again, he thinks this is what God wanted them to do.

So I do wonder about this sort of thing, and it really makes me pause when someone tells me to just listen to what the Spirit is telling me. It might be the wrong spirit. I've tried many times to convince my friend about this, but he just won't listen to me or anyone else.

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well ,can God lie? no.
so since the holy spirit only says what he hears from the father...
did you not consider that in the above account,some one is lying...and its not God.
so why make judgment on the matter based on that one mans lies?

Jesus said" the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. ..." the holy spirit cannot contradict the written word.

You're both right. The mroe you try to OBEY the law, the more you will fail, because you are trying to pursue righteousness by the Law. Even if you're not conciously, your flesh will find itself doing it and will result in failure. The law is meant to make us conscious of sin, so we live by faith in Christ. therefore We should Focus on Christ and then we will be able and grow in LOVING OTHERS AS CHRIST LOVED US AND GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR US. (which also is obeying the commands). But not by our efforts, but by the support of Christ for HIS glory.

meinahanna said:

You're both right. The mroe you try to OBEY the law, the more you will fail, because you are trying to pursue righteousness by the Law. Even if you're not conciously, your flesh will find itself doing it and will result in failure. The law is meant to make us conscious of sin, so we live by faith in Christ. therefore We should Focus on Christ and then we will be able and grow in LOVING OTHERS AS CHRIST LOVED US AND GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR US. (which also is obeying the commands). But not by our efforts, but by the support of Christ for HIS glory.

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This is so right and so true. Thank you for posting this!!

Clearly of "Obeying the Spirit" leads to hurting others then they have not listened to God's Spirit but to their human spirit. So I agree with that.

The reason I emphasis loving is because love doesn't hurt ones neighbor or God as Paul said. So we stay in relationships when we love. If the emphasis is on obeying, as I have had happen 3 times in my life, then we don't need a relationship with God, we don't need love, we can just obey. Ya, we fail that way. But the bigger problem is we aren't loving God when the emphasis is to obey. At least I never could from approach to God.
That's what works for me.

I wonder if you heard that from me....

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I don't honestly remember where I heard it. I don't wish to sling mud at anyone. I have been involved with the Pentecostals for a short time. There are some strong well grounded believers in the Pentecostal churches, there are also some that let their emotions and imagination run wild and believe it is of the spirit, the problem I see is what spirit. Some things I have seem don't seem to be consistent with how the Holy Spirit operates.