• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Distinctly Jewish Logic of the Bible and Talmud

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,023
✟39,686.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
If it comes down to believing scripture or historians, I'll take scripture any time.

And yet, scripture must be interpreted correctly - according to the correct form of reasoning, of logic, of hermeneutics.

For Yeshua was indeed not born within the lifetime of Ahaz; he was not born within the time it took for Ephraim and Aram to be conquered by Assyria, as Isaiah's prophecy in its most literal sense requires.
Yet Matthew clearly is not applying it or interpreting it in its most literal sense. He is fully in line with Biblical and traditional Jewish reasoning in taking Isaiah's words out of their original context for typological purposes.
 
Upvote 0

ContraMundum

Messianic Jewish Christian
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2005
15,666
2,957
Visit site
✟100,608.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It's seriously not that simple. Biblical hermenuetics is more than trying to slap a Jewish hat on and trying to read through "Jewish eyes" (as not all of Jewish tradition or interpretation is automatically correct, according to the Tanakh and the NT) nor is there a such thing as a Greek paradigm (not properly designated Aristolean, BTW) that is formed out of a vacuum and unique to the Greeks. Let's be frank, Jewish interpretive method is heavily Hellenized and vice-versa. There is no "pure" interpretive tool when it comes to historical schools of interpretation.

While we can certainly say that there is a Socratic logic and a rather different Talmudic logic, that is less than helpful in hermenuetics as the question will always remain as to the role of human logic in heremuetics to begin with. Logic both Socratic and Talmudic is usually the culprit in heresy and error.

While I would agree that there is an internally mostly consistant logic in the Bible, I would not agree that one needs to try to put a "Jewish" spin on one's interpretation.

Why? Simply because the internally consistant logic of the Bible is satisfactory within itself. It's internally consistant. That's why one compares scripture to scripture, using a simple passage to clarify a difficult one. While some here might erroneously think that's "Greek" thinking, that simply could not be true if the Bible has a consistant logic and author within itself. In fact, it's a process demonstrated in the Talmud as well as in the Church!

So we can say that there is a "distinctly Jewish logic in the Bible" (not necessarily in the Talmud though!) in doing so we are merely recognizing the consistant internal message of the one author.

So here's the bottom line. The Bible is perhaps not merely to be understood as a Jewish text, but rather the revelation that made Judaism. We can and must try to understand the authors and their culture and try to interpret it in a "Jewish" light....but that's a very Western and contemporary way to look at it. Irony anyone?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Yahudim
Upvote 0

ContraMundum

Messianic Jewish Christian
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2005
15,666
2,957
Visit site
✟100,608.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Good observations.
I doubt I've ever heard anyone ever say a positive thing about the Talmud on forums like this (or anywhere else even!)

Obviously you haven't been watching closely enough!
 
Upvote 0

ContraMundum

Messianic Jewish Christian
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2005
15,666
2,957
Visit site
✟100,608.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What can you learn about Jesus in the Koran?

A very, very great deal.

What can you learn about Jesus in the Talmud?

So much more than the Koran, its unbelievable.

What can you learn about Jesus from the book of Mormon?

A little, not much.


Without the Talmud, things about Jesus would be lost unless it was carried from person to person, and from person to person it was written down.

You would have to agree though that the role of the Talmud is not the preservation of the memory or good Name of Jesus, whereas the Koran attempts to do so (yet by completely changing Him!)

I think this brings to mind a good point- was it the role of the Church (Messianic community or whatever you want to call it) to hand down the story of Jesus and preserve its integrity or the role of the Rabbis? The answer is obvious. Therefore, why do so many (including myself too often) always look to the Talmud or other sources as some kind of authority on Jesus or the Messianic mission and faith?

It seems to me that the Spirit of God was promised to the people who would follow Jesus. Therefore should we not seek the testimony of those faithful to Him before the testimony of those hostile to Him?
 
Upvote 0

MadMaxData

Believer In Yeshua HaMashiakh
Jan 25, 2014
169
13
✟22,859.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Most historians, even those calling themselves Christians do not believe the bible.
Your point being?

If it comes down to believing scripture or historians, I'll take scripture any time.
Thank goodness it would never come down to believing one or the other, because I would hate to limit myself like I did when I was a Christian. Besides, I think it is more of a case where one either chooses to use his G-d given intelligence along with faith, or chooses to exercise blind faith. I'll definitely choose the former.

No comment on #2?
 
Upvote 0

Steve Petersen

Senior Veteran
May 11, 2005
16,077
3,392
✟170,432.00
Faith
Deist
Politics
US-Libertarian
It's seriously not that simple. Biblical hermenuetics is more than trying to slap a Jewish hat on and trying to read through "Jewish eyes" (as not all of Jewish tradition or interpretation is automatically correct, according to the Tanakh and the NT) nor is there a such thing as a Greek paradigm (not properly designated Aristolean, BTW) that is formed out of a vacuum and unique to the Greeks. Let's be frank, Jewish interpretive method is heavily Hellenized and vice-versa. There is no "pure" interpretive tool when it comes to historical schools of interpretation.

While we can certainly say that there is a Socratic logic and a rather different Talmudic logic, that is less than helpful in hermenuetics as the question will always remain as to the role of human logic in heremuetics to begin with. Logic both Socratic and Talmudic is usually the culprit in heresy and error.

While I would agree that there is an internally mostly consistant logic in the Bible, I would not agree that one needs to try to put a "Jewish" spin on one's interpretation.

Why? Simply because the internally consistant logic of the Bible is satisfactory within itself. It's internally consistant. That's why one compares scripture to scripture, using a simple passage to clarify a difficult one. While some here might erroneously think that's "Greek" thinking, that simply could not be true if the Bible has a consistant logic and author within itself. In fact, it's a process demonstrated in the Talmud as well as in the Church!

So we can say that there is a "distinctly Jewish logic in the Bible" (not necessarily in the Talmud though!) in doing so we are merely recognizing the consistant internal message of the one author.

So here's the bottom line. The Bible is perhaps not merely to be understood as a Jewish text, but rather the revelation that made Judaism. We can and must try to understand the authors and their culture and try to interpret it in a "Jewish" light....but that's a very Western and contemporary way to look at it. Irony anyone?

The goal ought to be to read the words they way the writers intended IF POSSIBLE. IMO, the only way to even get close to that is by pursuing the cultural/historical contexts of the times.
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,023
✟39,686.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
The goal ought to be to read the words they way the writers intended IF POSSIBLE. IMO, the only way to even get close to that is by pursuing the cultural/historical contexts of the times.

Agreed. It seems to me Contra is mostly playing a terminological game.

Other than that, his implied way of "following his own rules" of interpretation simply leads to chaos, which is what defines the messy-antics movement, each man his own rabbi.

The writers and Rabbis of the Talmud like the writers of the New Testament preserve the essentially true methods of interpreting and approaching scripture, and one doesn't need to simply shoot arrows flailing into the air when one can take advantage of the straight aim taught/granted by such texts. It is a matter of chetz or not chetz relative to scriptural interpretation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,429
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟209,750.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
You would have to agree though that the role of the Talmud is not the preservation of the memory or good Name of Jesus, whereas the Koran attempts to do so (yet by completely changing Him!)
If I may say...

I agree with you on how the Talmud was never dedicated to preserving the memory of Jesus - but with the Quran, I'd say that one can only claim that it misrepresents the Lord only if one fails to understand the context of how it was written in. Of course, there are many other things within the Quran that are incomplete and off - thus throwing off anything in the book which may be accurate or causing others to attach the impression those inaccuracies give unto accurate things and make bad connections.

But it really doesn't take much to show the Quran properly presenting the Lord - if others actually read it. The ministry of "Answering Islam" is one of the most amazing ministries I've ever come across - been very helpful in showing the many ways Islam itself was always incomplete when it comes to the Gospel because of the background Mohammad came from their article entitled The Quran and the Unlettered Prophet: Jesus or Muhammad? and The Quran and the Unlettered Prophet: Jesus or Muhammad?

And when understanding what's actually said in the Quran rather than going with what most Imams do with giving cultural Islamic teaching instead of what's in the text (just as it is with Christian teaching based on culture rather than scripture), it's very clear that Jesus is presented as He is.

Using the Quran to Explain the Incarnation of Jesus to Muslims - YouTube

Geoffrey Parrinder noted it well in his book entitled "Jesus in the Quran"


Even with Jesus being seen as Divine and a part of the Trinity, The Trinity as radical monotheism has always been a present factor for many Muslims just as it has been for Jews in Judaism when it comes to believing in Christ and yet noting their not being against the concept of the Holy Spirit or Yeshua being the same and yet seperate from the Father. And again, there's context - as it concerns how Muslim culture believe/accept the concept of a Trinity . Many Muslims have come to faith in Yeshua due to others presenting the Gospel via the Quran when it comes to examining how the Quran itself already had partial revelation within it showing that Isa was always seen as greater than Muhammad - that He was the Spirit of God, Eternal and the one who was the greatest revelation. Again, according to what many Imans say, they actually don't speak based on what the Quran actually says and thus they have cultural Islam rather than Quranic Islam - in the same way that others have cultural Christianity rather than Biblical Christianity. And it's very effective..

In the Qur’an, Jesus is twice referred to as the “Word of God,” a title that many consider to be the highest title given to any person in the book. While describing Jesus’ miraculous conception, the Qur’an states: “The angels said, “Mary, God gives you good news of a word from him [God]…’” (Surah 3:45). The second passage brings this truth to greater light: “People of the book, don’t exaggerate in your religion, and only say the truth about God. Truly the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is God’s messenger and his word which he sent down on Mary, and a spirit from him. So believe in God and his messengers and do not say three. Stop it. It is better for you. God is one God. Far be it from him to have a boy. He owns what is in the heavens and the earth. God is a sufficient trustee.” (4:171).

One can notice the titles given to Jesus. Each echoes biblical truth regarding his identity. He is the Messiah (Jn. 4:25-6), the Son of Mary (Mk. 6:3), God’s Messenger/Prophet (Mt. 13:57, Heb. 3:1), the Word of God, and a spirit from God (1 Co. 15:45). Many Muslims/others from Muslim background have noted this when sharing plainly on the ways Isa was always meant to be superior to Muhammad - with many noting that others need to follow what Christians have noted when it comes to acknowledging that the Messiah is truly the Son of God sent to redeem mankind....even though their brothers/sisters may've not had the best understanding on all points. For them, During the daily salat, they refrain from saying the shahadah unless they omit the second phrase, "and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah" and instead insert "and Isa (Jesus) is the Eternal Word of Allah" or "and Isa (Jesus) is the Sovereign Lord." They acknowledge that only the Bible is the Word of God and that the Qur'an, while containing beautiful Arabic and important insights into Arab culture, has no authority over the Bible.

Additionally, they note how in the Qur'an, Jesus is greater than Muhammad...evidenced by how Jesus' titles in the Qur'an are greater - noting several honorary titles such as titles of Messiah, the Word of God, the Spirit of God (Sura 4:169-71), the Speech of Truth (Sura 19:34-35), a Sign unto Men, and Mercy from God (Sura 19:21). For even in the Qur'an, Jesus lived a life that is much more extraordinary than Muhammad. Jesus' miracles in the Qur'an are greater, for the Qur'an affirms several miraculous aspects of Christ's life....such as the virgin birth of Christ (Sura 19:16-21; 3:37-45)....that Christ performed miracles (Sura 3:37-45; 43: 63-65)....the prophethood of Christ (19:29-31)...and it also affirms that Christ did not die but was raised up to heaven by God (4:158; 19:33) - for that which is LIFE ITSELF cannot be conquered by death - while in contrast, according to the Qur'an, there is very little, if anything, supernatural regarding the life of Muhammad. .

For Muslim Background Believers, they may go back to Mosque with family and appreciate the services - appreciating the background they came from/the things God showed them in it (even though it was incomplete and partial revelation) and still remembering how Isa is the Messiah. Some who came out of Islam may ask "Why are even appreciating anything you learned from your past? You have Christ now!!!!" - and yet others disagreeing realize that just because certain things were used wrongly doesn't mean you can't appreciate it. .......for many were able to come to trust in the Lord after seeing things in the Quran or their background in various ways the Lord used to help them see how Isa Al Masih was the Messiah - they didn't have to forsake all aspects of who they were in order to serve the Lord.....and just as that has that has occurred for those who are Muslims, the same can occur for Jewish people as well when it comes to reading the Talmud and seeing where it's incomplete in its ideology and yet still has MANY aspects within it that reflect who the Lord is....

I think this brings to mind a good point- was it the role of the Church (Messianic community or whatever you want to call it) to hand down the story of Jesus and preserve its integrity or the role of the Rabbis? The answer is obvious. Therefore, why do so many (including myself too often) always look to the Talmud or other sources as some kind of authority on Jesus or the Messianic mission and faith?

It seems to me that the Spirit of God was promised to the people who would follow Jesus. Therefore should we not seek the testimony of those faithful to Him before the testimony of those hostile to Him?
Good questions to ponder on..

And in addition to that, if Yeshua used the Psalms and the Tanak to teach predominately, then it would be worth wondering on why so many see the Talmud as absolutely necessary for understanding the Message of the Gospel or being something believers HAVE to use in order to appreciate what the Messiah had to bring. Of course, there's nothing wrong with the Oral traditions in and of themselves - as discussed more elsewhere in A Few Facts Why the Talmud (oral law) is a hoax. But there does seem to be something of an artificial problem when it's assumed that sharing of the Gospel via the Scriptures is not seen as "Jewish enough" or truly a reflection of Jewish logic - even though those things were exactly what the Apostles and the disciples did for a long time.....often getting into trouble because they went against views that were established/held in the Talmud or rabbinical tradition and supporting ideology that was actually reflective of the logic used within other cultures.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,023
✟39,686.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Gxg (G²);65109089 said:
... it would be worth wondering on why so many see the Talmud as absolutely necessary for understanding the Message of the Gospel or being something believers HAVE to use in order to appreciate what the Messiah had to bring.

Obviously one cannot read any text uncritically - but there is a lot to learn from the method (if not conclusions) of the Talmud.

Relatedly:
"The law of double reference is not the Pandora's Box of Biblical Hermeneutics as some opponents would claim. It is the failure of many to distinguish application from interpretation that has caused such an accusation to be leveled at the principle."
The Principle of Double Fulfillment in Interpreting Prophecy (see pat's link)

The method can be abused, but is also the correct one to be used.
Yeshua's very quotes from the TNK, including his statement on the cross ("why have you forsaken me") are according to what we might call a Jewish form of logic (read the original psalm he's quoting to compare). Paul often uses Rabbinic reasoning.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,429
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟209,750.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Obviously one cannot read any text uncritically - but there is a lot to learn from the method (if not conclusions) of the Talmud.
No one, to my knowledge, has said there's nothing to learn from the Talmud. What has been said is that it is not necessary in order to have perfect understanding of what Jewish knowledge is about or methodology.


Relatedly:
"The law of double reference is not the Pandora's Box of Biblical Hermeneutics as some opponents would claim. It is the failure of many to distinguish application from interpretation that has caused such an accusation to be leveled at the principle."
The Principle of Double Fulfillment in Interpreting Prophecy (see pat's link)

The method can be abused, but is also the correct one to be used.
Yeshua's very quotes from the TNK, including his statement on the cross ("why have you forsaken me") are according to what we might call a Jewish form of logic (read the original psalm he's quoting to compare). Paul often uses Rabbinic reasoning.
Perhaps it was missed - but as noted earlier when saying there's nothing wrong with the Oral traditions in and of themselves - as discussed more elsewhere in A Few Facts Why the Talmud (oral law) is a hoax(in examination of the ways Yeshua quoted from rabbinical custom alongside the Apostles) , many of the things Yeshua noted as well as the Apostles were found within the Talmud, even the concept of the Messiah being Divine (even though that was later erased from rabbinical studies due to the implications and others having Yeshua in mind).

There are other excellebt Jewish scholars who've done an excellent job addressed the issue....such by Daniel Boyarin in his book called The Jewish Gospels.




Boyarin's scrupulously illustrated account argues that the coming of the Messiah was fully imagined in the ancient Jewish texts...and that Jesus, moreover, was embraced by many Jews as this person, while his core teachings were not at all a break from Jewish beliefs and teachings. The book focuses on how the Jews expected a divine ‘Son of Man’ saviour to emerge out of Israel, based on their understanding of the prophecy in Daniel of the Ancient of Days. The Jewish world (specifically those who don't believe in Yeshua) have been praising the work of this one Jewish scholar for noting the fact that a Divine Messiah really isn't against Judaism - and eyes seem to be opening to the thought that Messianic Jews may know more on the Messiah than others have given them credit for:



That said, even though many things were in line with the Talmud, that doesn't logically mean that the Talmud itself is what others should look for as the standard for Jewish thinking or even the measurement of Jewish thinking. It'd be like me liking a song from Tupac or Ice-Cube or Queen Latifah in the Hip Hop game - and then saying that they alone are the ones people should look to if wishing to understand the proper scope/best interpretation of how Hip Hop culture was meant to operate. Something they said may have lined up expressely with Hip Hop - but that doesn't mean all of their ideologies are the best definition or standard.

The same goes for the Talmud - seeing its history and where it was often gone against by the Apostles as well. And all of that goes back to the issue of how Jewish logic alone was not what Yeshua or the Apostles utilized when it came to them sharing as they did.

As Brother Contra noted best:

I think the Church is the best representation of that on the planet, because people only enter the Church through the power of His Spirit- you can't get in any other way.

Now, if God's Spirit is calling people in to that Kingdom, then we have to recognise and respect His work and stop putting so much emphasis on our pet doctrines and whether or not it looks or acts "Jewish" enough for our approval.

I recognize your concerns over the "Greek" paradigm of the Church, and agree with it to a point, but I also think God has put the Greek into the Church to make her complete. It's a marriage of many nations, not a master/slave relationship of Jews over the Gentiles where the Gentiles are replaced and have their identity rubbed out...and I don't find anywhere in the Bible, Tanakh or NT that says Yeshua died to make everyone Jewish.
.
So true...​

I agree with him 100% - and on the issue, here's a decent video by a Messianic Jew...


I felt the video had a very balanced point of view. However, I disagree with the fact about commentaries. ..as commentaries can be helpful in understanding the word. But you have to know of course where the writer is coming from and what their biases are. It is difficult to completely wipe out the Greek thinking attitude (as he noted) that we have been brought up with and adapt a more Hebraic way of thinking because community is more important than the individual and that is what we struggle with ....as we place individual above community. In fact, sometimes community's way of doing things and thinking can be wrong. ..and when leaving out the Holy Spirit, a lot of things come out of place.

The exact difference between a Greco-Roman mindset and a Hebrew mindset is key to remember since much of Scripture makes no sense from a Greco-Roman linear point of view, but only from a block logic, circular pattern point of view.

Many Jewish Rabbi/organizations have made clear how Greek Thought is based more so on a Step model of logic (i.e. "1+1=2") where there's a great degree of forumla while the Hebraic is very much with similar dynamics, except that on many things there's a BLOCK Model of logic where things do not have to be in sequence or formulaic. Thoughts can parralel without necessarily having to make sense on why they connect---and there can be a great degree of mystery involved where some things are not necessarily certain. And Greek Thought was linear and Hebraic was circular...but even with one being more so linear and the other being circular, it would not be fully accurate to say the Hebraic has absolutes in all things...as in, all things neatly "categorized", "boxed" and in nice rows of thought.

Not all things Greek are bad, of course. The Jewish brothers/sisters from The Rosh Pina Project did an excellent review of rabbinical Judaism/some of its heroes already advocating some of the same dynamics that Christianity has with the Greek - as seen in It’s All Greek To Me. I thought the review was beyond fascinating since it did a great job of addressing how one considered amongst the greatest of berian Judaism Rabbis, Maimonides, based his whole “negative theology” off Aristotelian ideas, meaning that he defined God by what he is not, as you can’t explain God in positive terms by human philosophy.

Not many are aware of the Greek (as well as Islamic ) Influences on Maimonides' Philosophy - in fact, many aren't even aware of Greek Philosophies Impact upon Medieval Jewish Thought in general. But it's there and that is significant in light of how many today in the Modern Messianic Jewish movement wish to be against any/all things Greek in preference for rabbinical Judaism even while not knowing where Judaism itself already had that present.

And of course, he wasn't new in what he did since we already have the ways that Judaism after/during the Maccabean Revolt managed to find ways of utilizing Hellenization to their advantage by making it fit a Judaic perspective) - literally shaping the rest of the culture the Jews lived in.

The Maccabean fighters, who eventually established the Hasmonean kingdom, were themselves influenced deeply by Hellenism - with later generations finding many positive benefits from it as a result (more shared here /[URL="http://books.google.com.pa/books?id=IAlQTo4H4F4C&pg=PA35&dq=In+the+Shadow+of+the+Temple:+Hebrew+conceived&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RjASU5HeD9CgkQfWp4GwDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=In%20the%20Shadow%20of%20the%20Temple%3A%20Hebrew%20conceived&f=false"]here[/URL]).

This dynamic of adaptation - in honor of the very concept of the Lord working in all nations to make people for himself - is also seen in the time of St. Stephen. The Greeks were complaining against the Hebrews because they were being neglected. These were Greek-speaking Jews, not Gentiles - but it appears that the Greek-speaking Jews were considered to be rather Hellenised, inferior, and not as observant as the Hebrew-speaking Jews, so they were neglected and the situation had to be rectified. (Acts 6:1). This is where Stephen was brought in as well as others. When Stephen was called before the High Priest and the council, he gave a defence that was thoroughly Jewish, all about the history of Israel, and then he was stoned. (Acts 7). He did not see the Temple in the same ways as His Jewish brethren - and yet in what he said, he was more faithful to the intent of what the Lord wanted than all the others who glorified the Temple at the expense of progressive development - some of his quotations being speculated to have come out of the Greek version of the Scriptures....and his mindsets being reflective of Jews in the Diaspora who knew how to work within the Greek world - something Jewish Christians in the 1st century knew well when it came to spreading the Gospel.

And so we see the same settings developed that allowed for other believers to know how to work and operate within a Greco-Roman culture for the sake of outreach. And we have to be faithful to that if we're to honor their work.

Ultimately, by all means be thankful for the Talmud and many of the things it can teach us - but I also think we have to be careful in not assuming it was what truly defined what was or wasn't a Jewish mindset.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,429
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟209,750.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Biblical hermenuetics is more than trying to slap a Jewish hat on and trying to read through "Jewish eyes" (as not all of Jewish tradition or interpretation is automatically correct, according to the Tanakh and the NT) nor is there a such thing as a Greek paradigm (not properly designated Aristolean, BTW) that is formed out of a vacuum and unique to the Greeks. Let's be frank, Jewish interpretive method is heavily Hellenized and vice-versa. There is no "pure" interpretive tool when it comes to historical schools of interpretation.

While we can certainly say that there is a Socratic logic and a rather different Talmudic logic, that is less than helpful in hermenuetics as the question will always remain as to the role of human logic in heremuetics to begin with. Logic both Socratic and Talmudic is usually the culprit in heresy and error.

While I would agree that there is an internally mostly consistant logic in the Bible, I would not agree that one needs to try to put a "Jewish" spin on one's interpretation.

Why? Simply because the internally consistant logic of the Bible is satisfactory within itself. It's internally consistant. That's why one compares scripture to scripture, using a simple passage to clarify a difficult one. While some here might erroneously think that's "Greek" thinking, that simply could not be true if the Bible has a consistant logic and author within itself. In fact, it's a process demonstrated in the Talmud as well as in the Church!

So we can say that there is a "distinctly Jewish logic in the Bible" (not necessarily in the Talmud though!) in doing so we are merely recognizing the consistant internal message of the one author.

So here's the bottom line. The Bible is perhaps not merely to be understood as a Jewish text, but rather the revelation that made Judaism. We can and must try to understand the authors and their culture and try to interpret it in a "Jewish" light....but that's a very Western and contemporary way to look at it. Irony anyone?
Very astute points as it concerns the complexity of the matter :thumbsup:

I'd add onto that even outside of the Jewish thought and the Greek thought BOTH being present within the scripture, you also had ideologies from other cultures that were present - Babylonian thought being present when it came to the era of Daniel, Persian thought when it came to how Jews and others understood the concept of laws/kingship (as with Esther and Mordecai with the King in being unable to reverse decrees) and others.

We can see the same dynamic of different forms of logic present in Judaism as it concerns Cannanite thought when seeing what was present even in the Mosaic Law in light of Hammurabi's code.

One can go no further to see evidence of God's revelation of common knowledge in mankind than in the examination of the Code of Hammurabi ( )?

Of the several law codes surviving from the ancient Middle East, the most famous after the Hebraic Torah is the Code of Hammurabi, who was the sixth king of the Amorite Dynasty of Old Babylon. It is best known from a beautifully engraved diorite stela now in the Louvre Museum which also depicts the king receiving the law from Shamash, the god of justice.

This copy was made long after Hammurabi's time, and it is clear that his was a long-lasting contribution to Mesopotamian civilization. It encodes many laws which had probably evolved over a long period of time, but is interesting to the general reader because of what it tells us about the attitudes and daily lives of the ancient Babylonians. While the precise date of Hammurabi's Code of Laws is disputed by scholars, it is generally believed to have been written between the second year of his reign, circa 1727 BCE, and the end of his reign, circa 1680 BCE, predating the Hebrew "Ten Commandments" by about 500 years. Because of this, it has often been debated on whether or not the 10 Commandments were "stolen" by Moses.....and of course, this is not necessarily true. But the fact that COMMON revelation would be seen in another culture outside of a Jewish one is something to consider.

Again, though It pre-dated MOSAIC Law by centuries, it cannot be ignored that many of the things in the Mosaic Code are identical to what Hammurabi was able to write down/recognize as basic standards of morality.

For more information, one can go here or here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FanQabF_rf8


The knowledge of God and His ways have always been there from the beginning, thus not unique to Israel and not unusual to see it reflected in different manners within any pagan society.

And even going further than the era of Moses, there are others who've noted the ways that even the Book of Job was not always seen as a JEWISH text. In fact, it was seen at one point as a reflection of Arabic literature - which would be connected in many ways to Hebrew culture since both Hebrews and Arabs are Semitic groups in their background (as well as blood brothers via Ishmael and Isaac). But the distinctly Arabic feels to the poetry within the text have been something that many have wondered on for some time.

For more reference, one can investigate “Job and Early Arab Monotheism" or the book entitled Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's Prophetic .... In the book by Dr. Tony Maalouf, I appreciated his noting how “in the East” and Arabia refers to the location of the descendants of Abraham through Hagar and Keturah...and that in the book of Job, Job is described as “the greatest man among all the people of the East.” The author did amazing documentation on how Job was likely is a descendant of Esau and Basma, daughter of Ishmael (Genesis 36:9-33).

And outside of Job (as it concerns logic), we also have to deal with how Proverbs 30 and 31 were written by the Arab sages, Agur and Lemuel - Ishmael's culture and the logic they brought with them was incorporated into Judaic culture and thus we cannot say that the Jews didn't rely on the logical systems of others when it came to being Israel. Despite the fact the God gave Solomon wisdom, Solomon seemed to be a student of Philosophy/General Revelation He has given to all----saved or NOT (such as with the sciences, medicine, and other things)....& many of the things he wrote down in Proverbs which people turn to DAILY for wisdom may not be directly from Believers in GOD/EXPLICITLY Jewish concepts

Regarding the book of Proverbs, which contains many practical expressions of general truth rooted in God, there were many points where He did not author information but simply collected/compiled the information for what it was and didn’t hesitate to place the information out before others because the authors may not have been explicitly FOLLOWERS of the Lord. Again, one can see Proverbs 22:17 through Proverb 24:34, in which he collected/shared 77 proverbs, and godly principles most likely spoken by simple wise men).

And the words of Agur, Proverbs 30:1-33, which are a collection of proverbs written by an unknown sage. Though there's no mention of him being EXPLICITLY A believer (for even those not saved can have GENERAL REVELATIOn about GOD), it was enough that he was a simple student of wisdom/knowledge at the time of SOLOMON (I Kings 4:30-31.. Much of the wisdom in Proverbs 22:17 to 24:34 bears close affinities to Egyptian wisdom documented from other sources..

So focusing on distinctly Jewish logic as if it's superior to all others or not already present in other forms of logic outside of Jewish culture, we're not really dealing with logic as the Tanak sees it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,429
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟209,750.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The Bible is perhaps not merely to be understood as a Jewish text, but rather the revelation that made Judaism.
Like seeing what started the beginning of a tapestry rather than claiming one strand or thread that was woven into other things is the WHOLE of the masterpiece itself :)
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,023
✟39,686.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Gxg (G²);65109552 said:
Like seeing what started the beginning of a tapestry rather than claiming one strand or thread that was woven into other things is the WHOLE of the masterpiece itself :)

Not sure what to make of this . . . it's a whole "chicken-and-egg" issue really.
Was the New Testament hermeneutic (which is the same as or similar to the one employed in the Talmud, IMO) not the correct one?
Was Matthew abusing the quotes from Isaiah?
I think studying the Talmud and similar books can help one appreciate the methodology and logic behind the New Testament in a way that no other resources really can.
(If that contention/counsel offends anybody out there, I'm sorry.)

When people say they do not need to learn from a teacher and "Yeshua is my only teacher" it in practice simply means they are prone to the whims of the world and such people are often ever-changing in their doctrine and opinions since they don't have that firm grounding that learning from a teacher / rabbi can give.
 
Upvote 0

ContraMundum

Messianic Jewish Christian
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2005
15,666
2,957
Visit site
✟100,608.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Agreed. It seems to me Contra is mostly playing a terminological game.

Other than that, his implied way of "following his own rules" of interpretation simply leads to chaos, which is what defines the messy-antics movement, each man his own rabbi.

I have no idea how you got that impression from my post.

The writers and Rabbis of the Talmud like the writers of the New Testament preserve the essentially true methods of interpreting and approaching scripture, and one doesn't need to simply shoot arrows flailing into the air when one can take advantage of the straight aim taught/granted by such texts. It is a matter of chetz or not chetz relative to scriptural interpretation.

What you're appealing to is traditional interpretations, right? I have no problem with that- but to slice and dice them into Greek vs. Hebrew or whatever seems to me to be a little too simplistic and it doesn't really handle the matter of the progressive revelation of the Bible, especially to groups of peoples outside of the semitic.
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,023
✟39,686.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
I have no idea how you got that impression from my post.



What you're appealing to is traditional interpretations, right? I have no problem with that- but to slice and dice them into Greek vs. Hebrew or whatever seems to me to be a little too simplistic and it doesn't really handle the matter of the progressive revelation of the Bible, especially to groups of peoples outside of the semitic.

If indeed you have no problem with the New Testament hermeneutic/logic/reasoning (and note again Paul uses essentially rabbinic reasoning as I contend Matthew and Yeshua, for example, do too) then I do not see what our disagreement should be.

I think it pretty clear that European systems of logic generally are based on a heritage from Plato, Socrates, Aristoteles et al, being (in any case) different from the system of logic employed in the Bible.

I think ignorance of the Biblical logic, the intended hermeneutic and dialectic between intent and interpretation, has led to great misunderstandings of how to approach and interpret the scriptures.

(To repeat what I said above: I think studying the Talmud and similar books can help one appreciate the methodology and logic behind the New Testament in a way that no other resources really can. And I can add: there are other resources that may be helpful too, but in a different way.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ContraMundum

Messianic Jewish Christian
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2005
15,666
2,957
Visit site
✟100,608.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Not sure what to make of this . . . it's a whole "chicken-and-egg" issue really.
Was the New Testament hermeneutic (which is the same as or similar to the one employed in the Talmud, IMO) not the correct one?
Was Matthew abusing the quotes from Isaiah?
I think studying the Talmud and similar books can help one appreciate the methodology and logic behind the New Testament in a way that no other resources really can.
(If that contention/counsel offends anybody out there, I'm sorry.)

Having read a fair whack of the Talmud under the direction of a qualified (non-Christian/non-Messianic) teacher, and having a good grasp of the NT in Greek, I can say that Talmudic process does have a role in NT studies, but I would qualify that by saying that it is a small role in the end.

The Talmud is so varied and really doesn't have a "single" consistant way to read it. Even a serious understanding of its context(s) doesn't make it an entirely accessible and easy read with any unanimous consent in its interpretation. It's a complex commentary on commentaries, and as such has an abundance of divergent interpretations and conclusions. Because the truth is sought often within the argument itself, this reveals both a genius and a serious shortcoming in its method.

Furthermore, the Talmud really doesn't teach any interpretive method of the NT that unlocks the NT that the Church Fathers already didn't employ before the completion of the assembly and codification of the Talmud. You won't discover a hermeneutical tool in the Talmud that the Church didn't have already. Whatever is true in the Talmud will be true in the scriptures, not because the Talmud says so, but because the Talmud got it from the scriptures.

Talmudic logic has some serious shortcomings that Socratic logic clearly makes up for. I honestly think there is a lot more crossover in the logic traditions within Jewish texts than most in these forums would care to admit. My personal opinion is that to really understand Jewish texts one must understand not just Hebraic thought but also Hellenic and Oriental thought.

When people say they do not need to learn from a teacher and "Yeshua is my only teacher" it in practice simply means they are prone to the whims of the world and such people are often ever-changing in their doctrine and opinions since they don't have that firm grounding that learning from a teacher / rabbi can give.

With all due respect to all reading, this would be true if it was really happening. Even those who claim that their "only teacher is Yeshua" will be the first to reach for a Concordance in their Bible study, a resource written and compiled by a Christian teacher. Even their Bible was compiled and written by people other than Yeshua. They will also be the first to buy books by various authors, and listen to teachers on mp3.

We all have teachers that are not Yeshua. We look to Him first and last, but He has placed teachers of all kinds in our historic community.

Another thing though. Yeshua said "how do you read it?" when discussing the Torah with a Sofer. There is obviously in His teachings a place for personal interpretation of the Torah. How far one can go with one's own interpretation is another and quite vital topic!
 
Upvote 0