With respect, this is simply preaching, of the usual variety.I understand your thinking because pride keeps you as 'the captain of your Soul' instead of Gods rightful place. Therefore, your in a cocoon of your own world unable to see the BIG picture ... the picture which has God as #1 and Self as #2 where authority is concerned. I was at that place once in life. Today, I desire absolute truth coming from an absolute truth Provider ... and I find that so refreshing . I gave up the charade of pretending there was no Creator , only to embrace him . It takes stabbing pride with a sharp knife though...and its something that goes against our human grain. Do it, and you wont believe how different life becomes . Eternity especially.
Its not good rationale to justify yet another mind altering drug for public consumption BECAUSE there exists other more common things out there that accomplish the same thing ; the idea is to LESSEN the problem society faces with these and not to add to the equation.
Further, you seem to not understand that just because something may be illegal , people will therefore automatically obey that law -- not in America . In fact, its a favorite pastime to push the proverbial envelope on pleasure seeking .
As America gets further away from God , it will come to greater moral ruin and that affects ALL segments of a society once theres a huge cesspool of immorality and lack of proper ethics.
You said : 'And, although I'm not a sexual hedonist, I know people who are. They tend to be more likely to use protection, sometimes because they do, in fact, care about the health of their partner' . REPLY: The current statistics show that Sexual Hedonists are NOT ethical concerned People . Consider :
a. In the U.S., over 60,000,000 Adult Americans (not including Teens) are carriers of at least 1 STD of which there are 33 circulating STD's ; 2 of these end the life of a Participant in a premature very painful death in both the homosexual and heterosexual Communities . The most common STD is Genital Herpes which is permanent for life and in fact, I have a female friend who acquired this on her very first premarital sexual encounter when she was 20 . Its a lifetime reminder for her now. (still not married at age 60 , above average looks, shapely body, good job , financially secure... maybe it was the Genital Herpes that was the deal-breaker (?) ) .
b. 'Protection' such as condoms haven't been the Savior either ; Studies and Polls indicate most have unprotected sex . Further, condoms are misapplied/they come off in times of passion/ they tear/they rip/ they ooze out sperm if not properly controlled after [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] / and the holes in a latex condom are larger in diameter than the disease of HIV is . So, I wouldn't put your trust in this 'savior' .
c. Why would someone who is immersed in and believes in the lifestyle of using another for temporary satisfaction which is unethical and not very nice .... all of a sudden acquire a sense of morality and ethics in getting examined after each Sexual episode , for an acquired STD ? Can we expect Someone who is unethical , strangely switch gears to being ethical when considering their next Sexual exploit ?! Doesn't work that way at all -- one irresponsible act begats another . Further, do you believe an Unethical Sexual Hedonist whos now become an Addict after many years that has acquired an STD which he knows about ... will all of a sudden exit out of the 'fun' ? Highly unlikely.
I don't expect you to understand these principles or ideology, because they derive from a Godly viewpoint .... and it seems you may not be in that camp if I am correct (?) .
However, I do hope one day your shall for you will never have regret for surrendering your life to Christ. Only blessing will follow , and, into eternity.
Then you don't mind moral degradation infusing a Nation .
Your Christianity is quite different from The Bible and Gods infinite nature of purity, righteousness, and morality as the standard for how we should live.
Did becoming a Lawyer lead you to your conclusion ?
I understand your thinking because pride keeps you as 'the captain of your Soul' instead of Gods rightful place. Therefore, your in a cocoon of your own world unable to see the BIG picture ... the picture which has God as #1 and Self as #2 where authority is concerned. I was at that place once in life. Today, I desire absolute truth coming from an absolute truth Provider ... and I find that so refreshing . I gave up the charade of pretending there was no Creator , only to embrace him . It takes stabbing pride with a sharp knife though...and its something that goes against our human grain. Do it, and you wont believe how different life becomes . Eternity especially.
If we could simply say that the lawmakers and government executives behind the prohibition all had a meeting and decided, "We are going to take away people's liberty", then the nature and source of the issue would be clear.
But it is not that simple. Americans are over-medicated and abuse all kinds of medical and non-medical substances. The causes are likely things such as how stressful our way of life is. I think that addressing the concrete things that cause the problem, not fighting for abstractions such as liberty, is the best response.
People don't have to say "We are going to take away people's liberty", for them to take away people's liberty. I think you know that really. ...
The nature of the issue is that people want to smoke, and that it is authoritarian to stop that...
You may say that stress is an additional problem, but it isn't a deeper problem than liberty...
Advocating a less stressful life, and advocating people be free to do what they wish unless it harms others, are compatible. You can do both. Even if stress is the reason why people do these things (I don't think it is just stress) they should nevertheless be free to do them if they want to...
Also, liberty isn't merely an abstraction... the lack of it has real affects. That big metal door that locks people in prison is real, and the loss of money from a fine is real.
Does marijuana use REALLY lead to use of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine? Is it any more lethal than alcohol and cigarettes? Unless it is mixed with an illegal, harder drug such as ecstasy, I rarely ever hear about marijuana causing accidents, disease, or death. In those areas, legal drugs such as OTC and prescription medication, alcohol, and cigarettes are even more deadly. Having said that, why are people so against the legalization of marijuana when low grade marijuana can be used for medical purposes? Why is marijuana legal when alcohol and cigarettes that are far more addictive? Is that hypocritical?
Also, liberty isn't merely an abstraction... the lack of it has real affects. That big metal door that locks people in prison is real, and the loss of money from a fine is real.
No, I don't know that.
Liberty is not something that I have thought about much. I would probably struggle to give a definition of it if asked to.
That is the way that some people see it.
I don't know about non-Americans, but it is my understanding that public opinion in the U.S. is moving towards repealing prohibition not because prohibition is authoritarian but because it is not working.
I said that we have a symptom, Americans are over-medicated and abuse all kinds of medical and non-medical substances, and that a possible cause of that symptom is the stress of our way of life.
Compatible does not necessarily mean equal.
If lack of liberty causes people to be over-medicated and abuse all kinds of medical and non-medical substances then every society where people lack some liberty would be over-medicated and abuse all kinds of medical and non-medical substances. But not every society in which people lack some liberty has that problem, so something other than lacking some liberty is the cause.
I think that we should spend our resources addressing the root causes of problems.
The lack of dignity has real effects. But dignity is an abstraction, not something concrete.
Liberty is the same.
Just a note: "IF" someone feels like they just "have" to do x or y, despite it being known to have legal or liberty consequences, and they do it anyway, doesn't that in itself reflect something about what they value?
Don't get me wrong, that cuts both ways. Civil rights activist demonstrated and protested peacefully AND suffered consequences - but I point out that many did so knowingly and willingly. Their value basis on the issue of race, I happen to agree with.
As for someone's "liberty" to do drugs such as marijuana: I do not share or support such a value basis.
IMHO - I also find a blanket argument of group A's liberties are being taken away or group A is being oppressed unless group B capitulates by abandoning their liberties or value system is... a common one. I am not persuaded by such though.
I don't know what point you are making here.
Ah, and herein lay the "liberty of others" crux... I'll put it as plainly as possible:You don't have to think soft drugs are moral to support the liberty of others.
I'll help correct your error there:If you don't support peoples liberty though,
While I understand that "labels" are, especially labels hinting negative connotations (eg. ad hominem), inevitable when discussing moral or ethical issues with certain mindsets, I believe that you are well out of your realm of "authority" to dictate what I am or am not. And if you check my response above, I believe that I plainly outlined the "other way round it."that makes you authoritarian. There is no other way round it.
I've already broken down your strawman above, but perhaps this may help clarify the nature of your own post for you:If you aren't for legalisation, then you can't say you value liberty. You also have no basis for saying that people should support your freedom of religion, even if they disagree.
Correction:Group B doesn't have to abandon their liberties and values. It just means group B loses their privilege of being able to force their values on others... by kidnapping them and sticking them behind bars. Group B can say drugs are wrong, and still have all the liberties they had before, while allowing others to live their lives how they wish.
By all means, live your life.All we are asking for is for people to live their own lives. You can pray, and I can smoke, and we can both be free and happy (not that I do that alot... I'm just using me as an example). That is what it means to live in a free country.
There is more to it than just peoples liberty and their rights to be able to do something. The decision to allow something has to be also made as a society and what we think is best for all not just one group or another. The problem is some start to push the equal rights thing to far and then it becomes more about self than about what is good for all. We have to set some levels of standards otherwise things will just be a free for all. There is always going to be that element of rebellion against what is the general consensus as to what is right and decent and people will what to live how they want to. We should be able to have free lives but within a code of certain conducts which most agree is doing the right thing. But what i see happening is a push for self rights and to allow many of our standards to be compromised in the name of peoples rights.
The trouble is when we leave it up to ourselves we tend to end up falling short of setting a good standard. Because we have no real foundation as to what is right and wrong we end up allowing many things which will break down any models we have put in place. We allow alcohol but we dont really set any real guidelines or maintain good standards for its use. Sure we have laws which say you cant drink and drive but there isn't a law to get wiped out at a party or allow or set poor examples for the young. Its always the ones who cant handle it that we need to consider but we overlook that because we want to be able to have the freedom to make decisions for themselves and so its hard to have restrictions that cater for those who get in trouble with drinking. They end up being taken care of by the charities because no one else wants to know.
So our wants for freedom and the rights at all costs to choose will also have affects on society overall and in the end it will cost us anyway. Those who cant handle it will cost us money through accidents, rehabs, crime and family and community breakdowns. So allowing pot as well will just be an extension of this. But its almost like it has got to a point where rather than see that alcohol has already done so much damage we are saying well if we can have one we can have the other because its a rights issue rather than a health issue. Its almost like society as a whole is slowly becoming an addict with an unmanageable life bit by bit. Adding more and more to the problems but in denial about what it is really doing. Just like an addict we only want to see whats in front of us and just want the feel good of what it gives us right here and now.
So we are way beyond any point of having some decent standards that will bring things under control. We are slowly getting out of control. If we allow pot then it is just another subconscious message to say well what else is ok to take. We already have enough of a problem with all the other drugs and their associated problems and we are getting totally out of control. We are slowly going mad and mental illness is becoming an everyday occurrence. So two wrongs dont make a right and neither do three or four wrongs. But thats where we are at so far away from any control and standards as to what is the right or wrong thing to do. This is because i believe it is the age of self and an individualism. What are the individuals rights and nobody can tell me what to do with my body or my life. So we end up allowing just about anything. The young pick this up and we have been so busy trying to protect their rights that we have created an whole new monster that is getting out of control.
I would add that an argument could be made that people are so busy clamoring about liberty that they fail to see that they are being manipulated.
Bread and circuses make people easier to control and distract them from the real sources of their oppression.
There is more to it than just peoples liberty and their rights to be able to do something. The decision to allow something has to be also made as a society and what we think is best for all not just one group or another. The problem is some start to push the equal rights thing to far and then it becomes more about self than about what is good for all. We have to set some levels of standards otherwise things will just be a free for all. There is always going to be that element of rebellion against what is the general consensus as to what is right and decent and people will what to live how they want to. We should be able to have free lives but within a code of certain conducts which most agree is doing the right thing. But what i see happening is a push for self rights and to allow many of our standards to be compromised in the name of peoples rights.
The problem with this reasoning is that there are quite a few things that can be dangerous when misused. A person who drinks alcohol has the ability to decide whether they are going to use it to excess or not, or whether they're going to participate in high risk behaviors that lead to alcoholism. Similar things are true in regard to driving a vehicle. Someone who drives a car down the road has the ability to use it improperly by speeding, or to participate in high risk behavior by running a red light.We allow alcohol but we dont really set any real guidelines or maintain good standards for its use. Sure we have laws which say you cant drink and drive but there isn't a law to get wiped out at a party or allow or set poor examples for the young. Its always the ones who cant handle it that we need to consider but we overlook that because we want to be able to have the freedom to make decisions for themselves and so its hard to have restrictions that cater for those who get in trouble with drinking. They end up being taken care of by the charities because no one else wants to know.
So our wants for freedom and the rights at all costs to choose will also have affects on society overall and in the end it will cost us anyway. Those who cant handle it will cost us money through accidents, rehabs, crime and family and community breakdowns. So allowing pot as well will just be an extension of this. But its almost like it has got to a point where rather than see that alcohol has already done so much damage we are saying well if we can have one we can have the other because its a rights issue rather than a health issue. Its almost like society as a whole is slowly becoming an addict with an unmanageable life bit by bit. Adding more and more to the problems but in denial about what it is really doing. Just like an addict we only want to see whats in front of us and just want the feel good of what it gives us right here and now.
I think that most of us would agree that there is a certain code of conduct that people should have to obey. The problem is, that code really should be as basic as possible. Good people differ on the morality or immorality of certain actions. A given person might want to have sexual intercourse before marriage, while another believes that his actions are immoral. Another might want to drink alcohol, while another believes that all alcohol intake is immoral. Marijuana falls into that list of things where good and reasonable people disagree on its morality or immorality. A code of conduct that dictates human behavior should be something that any reasonable person can agree with in theory, even if they violate it in practice. Imposing the morality of one group of reasonable people on another group who might not share that morality is problematic.
The problem with this reasoning is that there are quite a few things that can be dangerous when misused. A person who drinks alcohol has the ability to decide whether they are going to use it to excess or not, or whether they're going to participate in high risk behaviors that lead to alcoholism. Similar things are true in regard to driving a vehicle. Someone who drives a car down the road has the ability to use it improperly by speeding, or to participate in high risk behavior by running a red light.
If I am responsibly drinking a beer with friends while watching television, I should not be imprisoned because someone else might irresponsibly drink several beers and get behind the wheel of a car. The idea of imprisoning an innocent person because they have the tools to behave in the same way as a guilty person is abhorrent for a reason. The same is true with marijuana.
At the point when laws become too paternalistic, you can absolutely become an authoritarian.