The Coming of Elijah and the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD

Gracelands · Dec 21, 2013

Better butter up the angels. Certainly, would not put my wrath on a beach though. You sure that analogy is apt there LOU? (Not that i'd quesytion your judgement. Couldn't deal with that Louisss..(?))

Any way i'm sure God is capable of arranging the decks on a beach in a non erosive to water, wind etc way.

L0U · Dec 21, 2013

Ok, how about a Dixie Cup of sand on a beach?

Gracelands · Dec 21, 2013

How about a row of coffins and a weeping 'mum'? Yours

swainkas · Dec 21, 2013

ebedmelech said:
No one said it was meaningless. I too, believe John the Baptist came as a *type* of Elijah. That's clear from the text.

The question is...how do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus coming as messiah is "the great and terrible day of the Lord"?

That's the question.

ebedmelech,

Thanks for your question. Sorry for taking so long to get back with you.

Why do I arrive at the conclusion that Jesus' coming is "the great and terrible day of the Lord"? I do so because several facts documented about Christ in the New Testament Gospels are eerily similar to things predicted of "the great and terrible day of the Lord." Let me cite a few of these references and give explanations of each.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. Joel 2:31

This verse is foreboding of strange things in the skies before the great and terrible day of the LORD. Christians should see the relevance of this reference immediately, because the day Jesus was on the cross, the sun was turned into darkness. Though there is no documentation of the moon turning into the color of blood while Christ was on the cross, (the vision of the prophet or the historian is blurry on this account) we do have an obvious reference here to the darkness that enveloped that part of the world while Christ was hanging on the cross (Matthew 27:45). The fulfillment of this predicted darkness, while Jesus was on the cross, should lead some to at least consider the possibility that the great and terrible day of the LORD has indeed come.

Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. Amos 5:18

The fulfillment of this verse was through the mouth of Jesus when He said This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil (John 3:18-19), indicating that prophets of old longed for the day of His coming, but that the people He spoke to in His day were blind to it (darkness covered their eyes).

Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, He hath bid His guests. Zephaniah 1:7

Jesus said that He was the ultimate sacrifice, that this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28). Is it not interesting that here in this Zephaniah verse the LORD (God Himself) has prepared a sacrifice on that day of the LORD? This is not preached by the Church today because they view the day of the LORD as a future doom for the nations, a day of righteous judgment, but not one of sacrifice on the part of God Himself. They tend to split Jesus first coming from a Second Coming, in which in His first, He prepared a sacrifice, and a Second Coming in which there will be no sacrifice. But this prophecy of the day of the LORD clearly links the day of the LORD with a sacrifice, which He prepared. This verse, taken in context with the life and self-described sacrifice on the part of Jesus, would lead some thinkers to consider His first coming and would argue against the need for another End-Times coming, because the day of the LORD prophesied by the prophets involved a sacrifice, as did Christs first coming.

For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. Ezekiel 30:3 (NASB)

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isaiah 13:9

Jesus said, For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son (John 5:21-22). Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out (John 12:31). Jesus also said, He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil (John 3:18-19).

So we see in these two Old Testament prophecies that the day of the LORD would involve judgment of the world. We see Jesus very naturally speak of judgment several times an all-consuming judgment on His part. Though His judgment involves no bloodletting between nations, which is the way we have become accustomed to expect judgment in history (Nahum 2:1-13; Zephaniah 2:13; 2 Kings 24:2; Jeremiah 25:12; 2 Kings 20:17), it does involve bloodshed on the part of Himself (John 19:34). So just because the judgment that God had in mind was trivial on the part of humankind, as far as bloodletting is concerned, it does not mean that it wasnt a climactic event in the history of the universe in Gods eyes.

And the LORD shall utter His voice before His army: for His camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth His word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Joel 2:11

The LORD uttered His voice before His army when Jesus was prodded by Pilate regarding why He had been delivered to Pilate. Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm (John 18:36). If Jesus was God in the flesh as I have been contending, then His voice sharing those words before Pilate was heard in the Heavenly realm by His legions of angels on alert to deliver their Creator from the awful hand of man.

These are but a few examples of How Jesus' life fulfilled Old Testament prophecy about the great and terrible day of the LORD.

Portions taken from Heresy, by Keith Swainson

Aijalon · Dec 21, 2013

swainkas said:
The very last words of the Old Testament are as follows:

Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse. Malachi 4:5-6

Please note that these are the very last words of the Old Testament. They describe the coming of the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD and associate it with the coming of Elijah. The Great and Terrible Day of the LORD is assumed by many today to be the final event on earths eschatological time clock. But according to Jesus, it has already occurred. In the following statements, Jesus says that John the Baptist was Elijah.

And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. Matthew 11:14 NASB

And He answered and said, Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist. Matthew 17:11-13 NASB

As most of you know by now, my views are very Christ-centric and as such because Jesus says something, I take serious note of it. By Jesus making these claims about John the Baptist, and by equating Johns coming with the coming of Elijah, I see no other way to interpret them than to conclude that Jesus was claiming His own coming was in fact the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD. How else can these verses be interpreted?

Your comments are welcome!

Portions taken from Heresy, by Keith Swainson

possibilities.....

#1 is that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord as described in various places is actually not a single day, but multiple days. (I do not like this one)

#2 is that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord as described in various places is all super spiritualized - meaning that there are no literal or physical or observable characteristics for this Day, but essentially most of the description is emotional (I am not fond of this one either).

#3 is that technically speaking Elijah/John did come before the Day of the Lord, as it just has not happened yet. The text does not say he is present on the DofTL or how long he hangs around. In this light the context of the passage must support a prophecy which is primarily about redemption, and not a timeline. If the verse is a timeline, it is very difficult to make Elijah and the DofTL so far apart, but if the point is just redemption and a second chance for Israel, then it is a possibility. (I like this option)
.... #3 is supported by context, which shows that the passage is not detailing a timeline of events, but a purpose and a certainty to events which are yet future. The nature of our efforts to look for timelines clouds the subject at hand in the passage wich is repentance.

keras · Dec 21, 2013

Try to fit this into your premise that the all the Lord's wrath happens at the Return:

Jeremiah 25:30-38 The Lord roars from on high. He thunders from His holy place. He roars loudly against His holy Land and like a grape treader He shouts against all the inhabitants of the earth. The great noise is heard around the world. For the Lord brings His judgement against the nations, He arraigns all mankind and has handed over the wicked and godless to the sword.
The Lord says, ‘Disaster spreads from nation to nation, a mighty tempest is unleashed, that will blast to every corner of the world’. Those whom the Lord has killed on that Day will be strewn from one end of the earth to the other, they will not be mourned or buried, but left as dung upon the ground.
Cry out you bad shepherds and useless leaders of My people, the Day comes for your demise, you will fall like prize rams to the slaughter. There will be no escape from the Lord’s fierce anger, like a lion leaping to the kill.
Disaster will suddenly strike and their land will become desolate because of the fiery wrath of the Lord. Ref: REB, CJB.

It is now time to realize that this terrible, worldwide disaster is soon to happen. In no way has this prophecy been fulfilled yet and this cannot be at the Return, as before that: ‘He thunders from His holy place’. Psalm 18:13
Many other prophesies vividly describe this sudden and shocking, one Day event as fire from the heavens, as a coronal mass ejection sunstrike that will literally fulfill all of them. Psalm 83 tells how fire and tempest will destroy those attackers of Israel and details like ‘the sky rolled up like a scroll’, and the ‘moon blood red’, are also literal effects of an earth directed CME. Isaiah 30:26, 2 Peter 3:10
The millions killed on that Day won’t be buried because there won’t be many survivors to do that and the extreme heat of a CME and the fires caused by it, will reduce them to ash. Malachi 4:3, Jeremiah 9:22
Those who have led the people astray with their false teachings, fictional books and poor leadership will be judged and punished on that Day. Micah 3:1-4, Isaiah 56:10-12

The world as we know it now, will not continue for much longer, prophecy is given to us as a warning of what will happen and to be mentally and physically prepared, so we can stay strong and keep trusting in the Lord to keep us safe, because we know His plans for His own people. Jeremiah 29:11
Colossians 1:11-12 In His glorious might may He give you ample strength to meet with fortitude and patience whatever comes and to give joyful thanks to the Father who has made you fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of Light.

Interplanner · Dec 22, 2013

You're trying to say that some wrath will occur before the final day.
1, the earth will not survive even one CME from what I have read.
2, If you are trying to resolve things in Mt 24, (where A is up to v29), and if you are wondering why Luke is seemless between A and B (in which B is global and worldwide and final), it is because Luke did not see any gap between them. They thought the end was right after the DofJ.
3, there are other acts of God's wrath from time to time.
4, there is a 'natural' form of God's wrath in Rom 1 which is social degeneration. At least I can't find any cataclysms there. Paul already said the full wrath of God had hit Israel for its treatment of the apostles in I Thess 1.

keras · Dec 22, 2013

Sorry IP, you display ignorance of scientific facts as well as Bible prophecy.
The Carrington event in 1859 was the biggest CME known so far to hit earth. It caused the early telegraph systems to burn out and shocked the operators. No deaths that time, but deaths worldwide are prophesied this time. As so vividly described 'people will crawl under the rocks and hide in caves, etc', just take suitable shelter from the heat, storms and earthquakes to survive. But all our modern infrastructure will be destroyed.
No use me trying to change your interpretations of the scriptures you quote. Only perhaps you could explain Romans 1:18 ?

Aijalon · Dec 22, 2013

Concerning wrath, God's wrath against Israel was never personally poured out on them, as it was always a third party doing the damage. The Day of Vengeance is God personally pouring out Vengeance on the enemies of his true people. It is different than the fulfillments of the various curses that came on Israel for their idolatry.

keras · Dec 22, 2013

Aijalon said:
Concerning wrath, God's wrath against Israel was never personally poured out on them, as it was always a third party doing the damage. The Day of Vengeance is God personally pouring out Vengeance on the enemies of his true people. It is different than the fulfillments of the various curses that came on Israel for their idolatry.

I do not see a CME sunstrike as God's personal judgement. This time He will use His creation, as we are told in Deut 32:34-35 and 2 Peter 3:7. Yes in the past He used other nations to punish Israel and Judah, but this time all the nations face His wrath and the outcome will not be pretty.
Don't deny that this terrible fire punishment will happen; the precedent has been set with the flood in Noah's day.
This sun strike will mostly affect the Middle East, but the whole world will be changed and become a different place.
Israel and Judah, [the Western nations] will be judged. Jer. 21:14, Eze 16:59

Interplanner · Dec 22, 2013

Keras,
the CME 2 years ago (that pointed from the sun in the other direction from us) would have ended everything; I suppose there could be 'ticklers'--that it all depends on the size.

Rom 1:18. If this 'wrath' is not looking back at the exhibit shown in the Gospel, then it is the degeneration explained in the next verses:
they became futile
darkened
foolish
"to be given over" is an act of judgement. They are given over to addictive desires.
they worship created things is depressing and devastating
they are inflamed with lust, and don't enjoy the natural design
they recieve the penalty "in them"
general societal degeneration and futility v28 plus

This list is given as though the misery of it was itself the judgement. That is what the OT meant by to "be given over" to something.

I don't see a cataclysm in the list like a flood or plague (but there is sexual disease) or a CME. Ultimately there is war because societies are similarly degenerate.

keras · Dec 23, 2013

IP, I do not doubt that you are a true believer in the Lord and do your best to keep His commandments. I have a younger brother like that and he too, absolutely refuses to see the forthcoming judgement/punishment from the Lord, as well. He, like you, is much more learned that me, he is actually a Bible translator and knows Greek and Hebrew.
But your and his problem is that understanding is withheld from the learned and given to the simple. Matthew 11:25
When this terrible event happens, and it will, only then will you and the millions of other Christians who have failed to grasp the truth of prophecy, finally understand. Deut 29:4, Isaiah 56:10, Jer. 6:10, Isaiah 29:10-14, Isaiah 48:8, Psalm 94:5, Amos 8:11-13

But after the Lord's Day of wrath, then - Isaiah 43:8, Isaiah 34:4-5, Isaiah 29:18 & 24, Isaiah 32:3-4

swainkas · Dec 23, 2013

Aijalon said:
possibilities.....

#1 is that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord as described in various places is actually not a single day, but multiple days. (I do not like this one)

#2 is that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord as described in various places is all super spiritualized - meaning that there are no literal or physical or observable characteristics for this Day, but essentially most of the description is emotional (I am not fond of this one either).

#3 is that technically speaking Elijah/John did come before the Day of the Lord, as it just has not happened yet. The text does not say he is present on the DofTL or how long he hangs around. In this light the context of the passage must support a prophecy which is primarily about redemption, and not a timeline. If the verse is a timeline, it is very difficult to make Elijah and the DofTL so far apart, but if the point is just redemption and a second chance for Israel, then it is a possibility. (I like this option)
.... #3 is supported by context, which shows that the passage is not detailing a timeline of events, but a purpose and a certainty to events which are yet future. The nature of our efforts to look for timelines clouds the subject at hand in the passage wich is repentance.

Aijalon,

Is there not yet a fourth possibility?

In my post #24 in this thread, I pointed out that many of "the great and terrible day of the LORD" prophecies were actually fulfilled in the first coming of Christ, and therefore bring into question whether there will be a second one at all.

Could it be that God coming in the flesh of a man, and then being beaten and hung on a cross till He died, is the embodiment of both the "great" and "terrible" day of the LORD? Especially in light of what Christ said during the Last Supper, which indicates He completed everything He planned to do while on the cross and via the resurrection to initiate His kingdom here on earth -- as documented in my other thread: Jesus Christs End Times Message Hidden during the Last Supper Discourse at http://www.christianforums.com/t7791109/

Interplanner · Dec 23, 2013

Keras, you are so wrong.

When a person believes justification by faith, they believe that Christ's righteousness covers them for the very event you are talking about, as Rom 5:1-4 says. What you are asking me to believe is your detailed listing or chronology of it all, which is the proverbial lack of forest for the trees. It's too bad your brother doesn't appreciate justification by faith, but justification is decree of not guilty to those who otherwise would be, because of their appropriation of Christ. So Rom 3 can be seen as a person has been to judgement, to sentencing day in God's court, but God himself intervened! He no longer needs to know that God can crush this universe easier than you can step on an ant. He does not need to know what shoes God will wear when he does that. He does not need to know when. He only needs to know the God-man who is the Firewall.

keras · Dec 23, 2013

IP, I too [and my brother] believe in justification by faith.
This truth does not in any way negate or remove the fact of a forthcoming judgement upon the whole world. We who have that faith do have the promises of God for His protection during that event. Psalm 27:5, Jer 30:7 and Isaiah 30:26 says it will be a CME, but on that Day He will heal His people.
So many prophesies tell us what will happen, to discount them and think you don't need to know, cannot be right. Did God give us all that information for nothing?
But as I pointed out in #32, most will fail to understand;
Isaiah 29:14 I shall shock this people...the wisdom of the wise will perish and the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish.

Interplanner · Dec 24, 2013

There is no denial of a future judgement; there is the news that it is "as if" the event has already been realized and lived through. Since this is how Rom 3 sounds, I'm having trouble with what you think justification by faith is. Many, many people for a couple hundred years now have thought that justification is an "experience"--the initial awakening or stirring of being a Christian. I guess you might call that a birth, but a person may not realize what justification is for some time. It is a judiciary term and has to do with guilt, accusation, innocence, and then there is the fact of imputed righteousness--a substitutes righteous life for another person and so on. Instead of relegating it to the 'initial' Christian experience, a retired Moody Bible Inst. prof once told me, it is the most advanced concept of Christianity.

Well, that may be, but anyone who "gets" Lk 7:36+ or Mt 18:21+ which both deal with the concrete term debt when refering to sin, can get it. If Christ is offering to forgive this debt, then justification is now here. The legal proceding of the day of judgement is now here and can be spoken of as past tense. That is completely different from 'denying that there is a judgement coming' but let's get to the point: so what if we know there is a judgement coming, if the fine news is instead that there is a gospel that puts it behind us? Who would care about pounding details of how awful the day of wrath will be if we can indeed be 'justified from everything which the law could not justify us from'? (Acts 13's sermon ending). Does Paul blast his listeners with such horrifying details there? Other than say God will judge, does Paul exhibit blood, gore and guts? In Acts 17's to the pagan thinkers? In Acts 24:25 to some Roman administrators?

Then there is the problem of the Bible's graphic passages. It has to be graphic for us to get the point, I suppose, but we can get all tangled in that graphic detail, and just debate that. For some Christians, if you don't accept their understanding of that detail, you are in denial of a final judgement, which is a ridiculous conclusion. I have never understood, anyway, why the whole wrath of God would take place in a small valley of the Lebanon-Israel border. The whole thing happens there? No, it can't mean that. And even though it might use the phrase "the whole world" we have to account for hyperbole, like in Jn 12:19. It just means Israel. To signify that everyone would be present the Rev speaks of a place that is the biggest known intersection in the Middle East that could be concieved, and that has history to--caravans moving from Egypt to Iran would know of it. But it is just to signify.

And then there's the past peoples. How could the judgement of God happen to a huge gathering in 2017, for ex., if people from 2017 BC also needed to be judged? No, the judgement of God is after this life, which means we need to back off from our hunt for particulars about things that can happen in this life.

keras · Dec 25, 2013

May I suggest that you, Interplanner and all who truly seek the truth of what will happen very soon and how the Lord will treat His people; read carefully all of Psalm 18.

Interplanner · Dec 25, 2013

How about Rom 3 and Heb 9, too?

Interplanner · Dec 25, 2013

Ps 18 is first of all to be read about Christ, as so many are. cp for ex., 16:10. Is that about us or Christ? Well, we need to go first with what the apostles said. Christ explained to them from "all the Scriptures" about himself.

keras · Dec 26, 2013

You have your suggestions and opinions, IP, but I just hope that others will realize that Psalm 18 as written by David is prophetic and having not yet been fulfilled, applies to the end times. It actually describes quite well how the Lord will carry out His forthcoming judgement and punishment of the nations.

Jeremiah 6:10 Who can I speak to and give warning? Who will listen to me? But their ears are closed, they are incapable of listening...

The Coming of Elijah and the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD

Gracelands

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Gracelands

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Swainson, author of Heresy

Sayin' it like it is

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Sayin' it like it is

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Swainson, author of Heresy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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