We're the only one's that know the past. You see, they can't even go back more then 6000 years.
How, really, do you hold them to anything?
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List of 41 man-made traditions of the Popes, and the Church of Rome.
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We're the only one's that know the past. You see, they can't even go back more then 6000 years.
How, really, do you hold them to anything?
Keachian
On Sabbatical
If we are to take your paragraphization (paragraphs, like punctuation and verse and chapter markings are interpretive tools and not inspired, to hold otherwise is to do so merely by tradition) there are 11 Words which the Israelite is to form his life around and the keeping of the Sabbath is the 5th.
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You address minutia. I address the BIG picture, namely, that there are 10 Commandments, 4 related to God and Man, 6 relating Man to Man.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
I address minutiae because you insist on dragging me down here, maybe I should go back to higher level theology and discuss how SDA federalism subverts Presbyterian Federalism adding more layers specifically to turn again what the Presbyterian think of as a Covenant of Grace to a Covenant of Works, in particular a Covenant of Works around the Sabbath Commandment. But of course because you don't have an understanding of anything outside of your own Theology you wouldn't be able to suitably engage in such a discussion.
Or instead I could turn to the Elephant in the room, the Investigative Judgment and hang your acceptance of EGW as prophet on her view of it, after all if she is a Prophet then she would have spoken correctly when she described the IJ as being:
- Convened only after 1844, 'it is...in 1844...to perform the work of investigative judgment'
- Addresses only the 'professed people of God', and is not a general judgment
- Convened in absentia of the accused, 'they will not be present in person'
- The accused are judged according to the old covenant, 'The law of God is the standard'
- Adventist soteriology is dependent on this alleged judgment, 'their names will be blotted out of the book of life'
You have continuously been unable to present texts from Scripture, I submit to you that since you have also denied that the above is what Scripture teaches concerning Judgment and is also not what your Church teaches concerning Judgment that you have a problem on your hands. Either EGW is a Prophet and therefore right and we need include at minimum her Conflict of the Ages within Scripture, or she is not a Prophet and you need to repent of calling her one and remove yourself from the SDA Church which to this day claims that she is a Prophet. Scripture gives no room for the fallibility of Prophets and so says; "They have spoken presumptuously." (Deut 18:22)
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Think I'll just keep posting this over and over and over and over again. Hey... maybe assign it to a hot key!
The Christian Law, aka The law of Liberty.
1. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
2. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Do we see Christ asking (or commenting) about our obedience to the Ten Commandments at Final Judgement?
Ooops... nothing in the final judgement except the law of liberty.
God be gracious to me a sinner.
The Christian Law, aka The law of Liberty.
1. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
2. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Do we see Christ asking (or commenting) about our obedience to the Ten Commandments at Final Judgement?
Ooops... nothing in the final judgement except the law of liberty.
God be gracious to me a sinner.
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Rev Randy
Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Somehow I doubt that.
Have you heard, I mean really heard this?
James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
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Yes, since points [1] and [2] are citations from the OT, specifically Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18, both of which deal with Gods Law, the Ten Commandments, and their transgression, which is sin {1 John 3:4}. Jesus in John 14:15 cited Exodus 20:6. Sin is the bondage, the chain.
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Shiny ~ from the SDA point of view, what is the final theological disposition of a person who commits suicide and is condemned at final judgement?
God be gracious to me a sinner.
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KingCrimson250
IS A HOMEBOY
Frankly I think it's cynicism and pessimism on the part of the authour of Ecclesiastes and is not necessarily representative of an ultimate theological truth. Trying to take everything in Ecclesiastes as a theological revelation opens up several cans of worms.
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The Dead Praying For Us
Jesus told Dismas on the cross that he'd be with him in Paradise that very day.
It's stupid to think that, in God's holy realm, having the beatific vision, one doesn't know what's going on or has any desire to intercede for the living on Earth.
It's basically lobotomy to deprive one of those things, there would be no point in having a soul, and furthermore why wouldn't Jesus desire the Kingdom to be celebrants of his will to save?
Jesus told Dismas on the cross that he'd be with him in Paradise that very day.
It's stupid to think that, in God's holy realm, having the beatific vision, one doesn't know what's going on or has any desire to intercede for the living on Earth.
It's basically lobotomy to deprive one of those things, there would be no point in having a soul, and furthermore why wouldn't Jesus desire the Kingdom to be celebrants of his will to save?
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I've already spoken on particular judgement.
If that hasn't been brought up lately, then it should be, because that's the reason in praying for the dead.
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Albion
Facilitator
My point was that the Communion of Saints, the Mystical Body of Christ, the consciousness of those who have passed on, etc. does not in any way imply that praying either to or for those who have entered life eternal is right to do. Nor do we have any right to make up God's policies for him, based upon what we think would be reasonable.
You're right about that. The only souls for whom it makes any sense at all to pray would be those who are somewhere other than in heaven or hell, such as Purgatory. But since there is no Purgatory, this isn't much of an argument.
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Prayer for the dead is to hope that God will be swooned by our call and have mercy upon them.
For the damned to have a less punishment, for the saved to have more reward, for those in Purgatory to be more hastily quickened.
It's not about saving the condemned or condemning the saved.
And Purgatory does exist. It is by sound logic there, and deduced by scripture. Unfortunately, your lot took books out of the canon that disagreed with their standing.
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The thief on the Cross, which has no name in the Scripture, did not enter to Paradise {3rd Heaven} that day, please read the context more carefully, thank you {Matt 27:38-66 Luk 23:32-33,39-46; Jhn 20:1-31}:
[1] The Greek, και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω Luk 23:43, has no punctuation, which reveals the incorrectness of certain placements of a comma, for Genesis to Rev, teach that those that are dead are them which are asleep [1 Thes 4:13,15] and do not immediately upon death enter Paradise, for they must first be resurrected [Matt 22:30; Luk 20:35, etc].
Never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark or single verse out of context, for scripture must be understood:
For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: [Isa 28:10]
and Scripture cannot be broken [Jhn 10:35]
[2] The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not ascend to Paradise the day of His death at all, for it is written, Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. Jhn 20:17
So much for the thief going "today" to Paradise. What Jesus was saying was that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words thou shalt be with me in Paradise, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection at the last day [Jhn 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even at that day [2 Tim 4:8]. Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, Verily, verily I say unto thee to day..., as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'. It is like unto what we find here, For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, [Psa 95:7; see also Heb 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.) [2 Cor 6:2]
[3] Another point to consider, is that Luke is the only one which records these words And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee* To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luk 23:43 [KJV], and therefore, before any conclude to utilize this text in favor of the erroneous immortal soul/spirit theology, ought to consider more context on the whole.
Especially since Luke says,
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, [Luk 1:1]; Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [Luk 1:2]; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, [Luk 1:3]; That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. [Luk 1:4]
Therefore let us be circumspect and very careful, not to fall into the trap of those which wrest [2 Pet 3:16] the scriptures, or as those which corrupt the Word of God [2 Cor 2:17] as do others. It would be quite dangerous to simply take a single text and claim it proves any doctrine, for a board with one nail in it, will spin all around, but a board with several nails through will be stable. Therefore, we need to consider this texts with the context which surrounds it and those events, otherwise we would be as satan which only quotes certain portions of any text or context [Matt 4:6].
[4] According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others, Christ Jesus did not go to Paradise that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] descended into hell [which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the third day that he arose, and finally ascended into heaven. This creates a serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this, if they also think that Luk 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered Paradise that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine Paradise into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.
We may see this from several Roman Catholic sources, such as Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]
Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb. - SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Christ's descent into hell (Tertia Pars, Q. 52)
or we may see it from the Creed of Aquiliea
Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in clos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)- CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apostles' Creed (Rufinus)
or considering the Apostles Creed, it clearly states that Jesus was not caught up to Heaven until after the third day; T Apostles Creed
...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ... - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed
or considering the Nicene Creed, it clearly says of Jesus that he,
...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven... - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed
or considering the Athanasian Creed, it clearly says of Jesus,
...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven... - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed
[5] Paradise is actually the Garden of God in the city of God, wherein is the Throne of God in the third Heaven, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luk 23:32
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and Revs of the Lord. 2 Cor 12:1
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor 12:2
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) 2 Cor 12:3
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12:4
"...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7; see also vs Rev 22:2,14 "tree of life" and its location.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze 28:13
13en th trufh tou paradeisou tou qeou egenhqhs pan liqon crhston endedesai sardion kai topazion kai smaragdon kai anqraka kai sapfeiron kai iaspin kai argurion kai crusion kai ligurion kai acathn kai amequston kai crusoliqon kai bhrullion kai onucion kai crusiou eneplhsas tous qhsaurous sou kai tas apoqhkas sou en soi af¢ hs hmeras ektisqhs su Eze 28:13 LXX
Jesus did not enter into Paradise until after He was resurrected and arose from death the third day according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Rev 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Lev 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron]. Let us see this.It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and Revs of the Lord. 2 Cor 12:1
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor 12:2
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) 2 Cor 12:3
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12:4
"...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7; see also vs Rev 22:2,14 "tree of life" and its location.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze 28:13
13en th trufh tou paradeisou tou qeou egenhqhs pan liqon crhston endedesai sardion kai topazion kai smaragdon kai anqraka kai sapfeiron kai iaspin kai argurion kai crusion kai ligurion kai acathn kai amequston kai crusoliqon kai bhrullion kai onucion kai crusiou eneplhsas tous qhsaurous sou kai tas apoqhkas sou en soi af¢ hs hmeras ektisqhs su Eze 28:13 LXX
[6] Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, ...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:
Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matt 27:63
He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matt 28:6
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. Jhn 10:17
I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev 1:18
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Rev 2:8
[7] Christ Jesus did not lead captivity captive[the firstfruits 1 Cor 15:20,23, the wavesheaf Lev 23:10-12; see Matt 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, the third day [Luk 24:21], Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Eph 4:8He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matt 28:6
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. Jhn 10:17
I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev 1:18
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Rev 2:8
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23
The English word coming in the Greek is parousia παρουσία and means presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God [Strong's] [See Matt 24:37 and compare to Luk 17:26,30].
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thes 4:16
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:17
Notice, not individually as any die, but all together being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of saints around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions]. Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:17
The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matt 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Cor 16:17; 2 Cor 7:6-7, 10:10; Phil 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thes 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thes 2:1,8,9; Jam 5:7-8; 2 Pet 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 Jhn 2:28].
There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:
to come and/or arrive erchomai ἔρχομαι [Matt 24:30, 26:64; Jhn 14:3; 1 Cor 11:26; Rev. 1:7],
to appear visibly optanomai ὀπτάνομαι [Heb 9:28],
to return analyō ἀναλύω [Luk 12:36],
to reveal apokalypsis ἀποκάλυψις [2 Thes 1:7; 1 Pet 1:7; Luk 17:29-30],
to manifest epiphaneia ἐπιφάνεια [1 Tim 6:14; 2 Tim 4:8; Tts 2:13],
make manifest phaneroō φανερόω [1 Pet 5:4],
come hēkō ἥκω [Rev 2:25],
to return hypostrephō ὑποστρέφω [Luk 19:12]
[8] Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. [Jhn 14:3], and that word come is the Greek erchomai ἔρχομαι. Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Cor 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He ...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. [2 Tim 1:10].to appear visibly optanomai ὀπτάνομαι [Heb 9:28],
to return analyō ἀναλύω [Luk 12:36],
to reveal apokalypsis ἀποκάλυψις [2 Thes 1:7; 1 Pet 1:7; Luk 17:29-30],
to manifest epiphaneia ἐπιφάνεια [1 Tim 6:14; 2 Tim 4:8; Tts 2:13],
make manifest phaneroō φανερόω [1 Pet 5:4],
come hēkō ἥκω [Rev 2:25],
to return hypostrephō ὑποστρέφω [Luk 19:12]
[9] The thief specifically stated this: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luk 23:42, which is the context of Luk 23:43, and we know that Jesus has not yet received that Kingdom, for He does not yet sit upon the Throne of Glory:
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matt 25:31
Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven. He is not yet married unto it.When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matt 25:31
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luk 19:12
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Dan 7:13
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Dan 7:14
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:2
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17
The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be.I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Dan 7:13
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Dan 7:14
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:2
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17
See also: Isa 61:10, 62:5; Matt 21:33, 25:14; Mrk 12:1; Luk 20:9
Especially Read Matt 25 and the Ten Virgins.
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