what is this strange spiritual bondage that when...

I'm sorry, I really don't understand your post. Guess I'm lacking knowledge, lol.
Could you please clarify what you mean about knowledge of Gentiles vs Jews?
I'm really having a tough time figuring out what you mean.

Meh, started to say something cause I think I know what you mean, but I deleted it.

Gottservant said:

...I think of the Gentiles I want to know more and more
...but when I think of the Jews I just want to be there (in Israel).

Are Jews not allowed to know anything?
Or is it because they trust in God they shouldn't need to?

My sense of my own Jewishness reflects the world, so this shouldn't be happening.
I don't want to sell myself short as a Jew, that's why I am wondering how there could be a difference in my desire for knowledge depending on where the knowledge is coming from, since all knowledge comes from the fear of the Lord.

Is it that when you are in Israel you don't need to know anything?
Or are the Gentiles so knowledge obsessed that they make knowledge a burden I want to be rid of?

Why don't I just have the one attitude to knowledge (whether I am thinking of Jews or Gentiles)?

If I were the Devil, I would be saying that the Jews think they know everything.
But if I were a man among men (and Gentile), I would be saying the Jews don't know any more than me.

Maybe Jews are supposed to keep knowledge a secret?

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If the evidence of the amount and variety of inventions and surprising consistency in surpassing the gentile population in intelligence, brilliance, and wisdom, I would say that Jews have been blessed with inspirations and the benefits of these talents they have been given. Check out who got the most Nobel Peace prizes, or the amount of stuff that is coming out of a little country like Israel, or the fact that they have kept a record of their encounters with God, the one true God, and the list goes on... It is well known that in the financial world they are on top of it, on scientific world they are on top of it [if Albert Einstein is any example], and I give all the credit to God who sees them as the apple of His eye.

I'm jewish on my mom's side, but I like knowledge.
I think that's just a personal issue you're dealing with, not a jew/gentile thing.

Gottservant said:

Yeah, I know.
But as soon as you interpret Jewish humanism the way Jesus' did and reach out to the Gentiles, you get nothing (but the cold shoulder).
That's all that "progress" is, humanism.

I am not dirty because I take on the personality of the Gentiles, and even if I was, that would be ok with Jesus.
The thing is I am not playing Samaritan for a joke, I am playing Levite for a reason and the reason is not being respected.

I don't have to tell you what the reason is, but suffice it to say that when the King of Israel returns there are some who will be embarassed.

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If I'm understanding you correctly...

I think I've seen what you may be noting before. For many times, with many Gentiles in love with all things pertaining to Ancient Israel as well as the Modern Israeli State - or with Jews living in Israel/outside of it - there is an tendency to be excited at any invention or brilliant idea coming out of the Jewish world.....nothing wrong with that in/of itself - but it seems odd when the idea is AUTOMATICALLY assumed to be more "miraculous" or worthwhile if it was from an Israeli or Jewish individual - while the same ideas, if coming from the Gentile world, seem to get downplayed....to the point that a Gentile discovering it/promoting it first is seen to be of no importance - till a Jewish person notes it and it suddenly gets credited solely to the brilliance of Jewish culture - similar to when blacks made many inventions they didn't get credit for and were ignored on....till their ideas were taken by whites/put out and then celebrated while still having a disdain for Black culture.

The same dynamic works when an idea that didn't originate in Jewish culture (even though beneficial) is taken to mean that only Jewish people (when they exalt it) have the right to claim ownership of it if they make it their own - and thus, while they may note others also advocate for it, there's the mindset that it's just not as good as when someone Jewish advocates for it.....and yet the negatives of other groups adovcating for that idea are highlighted while any negatives of the Jewish people are downplayed.


This reality has happened to Jews as well, of course, when ideas Gentiles celebrate in their cultures were already found in Hebrew culture/Hebrew scholars - with Gentiles echoing what was already voiced by others in the camp many Gentiles did not like.....and thus there's a bit of pride/gratitude that comes when marvelous ideas are found to originate in the Jewish world. But it can become a problem when that evolves into assuming there is NOTHING to celebrate that comes from the Gentile world as if Gentiles have not created or made things for which the Jewish people have to be thankful of.......or assuming only those who are Jewish can create/progress in things which the world needs to be thankful for (that being a form of Philio-Semitism which is racism since, as another noted, “a philo-Semite is an anti-Semite who loves Jews" - for both philo- and anti- share an unhealthy interest in Jews and an unreal notion of who and what Jews are...both dealing not with Jewishness but with “Semitism,” as if being a Jew were the same as embracing a political ideology of one kind or being superior to all other groups as if they're supermen to be celebrated above all others as if nothing but good has come from them).


In many ways, that's what the Levite and the Priest in the Good Samaritan parable suffered from - ignoring their negatives while only focusing on the good they had to do (i.e. going to Temple, remaining pure, etc.) - while a Samaritan (whom most Jews already despised as unclean in all ways) demonstrated goodness/lived out the ideas that the Lord valued....and that all of Israel should have valued as well instead of thinking that no Gentile was truly capable of righteousness as it was assumed Jews were. For this Samaritan - considered pagan by many - did not show any signs of either going to Temple or being concerned for living as the Jews were....yet he walked out God's heart....and Yeshua intentionally chose the Samaritan in Luke 10:25-39 to highlight what it meant to be a good neighbor......the man he was questioning not even being able to say at the end it was the Samaritan who was a good neighbor - but instead only able to say "The one who had mercy on the one beaten/near death"....

In one of the Hebrew Roots groups I used to be a part of (Which was a cult sadly), it often seemed the rabbi would often speak about Jewishness and have that celebrated and all others cheered on - which was cool at first since the background was on appreciated the Hebraic that was neglected. However, it quickly became apparent over the months that anything remotely Gentile related - from helping out others in a Soup Kitchen in street ministry to helping prostitutes come off the streets to people in Uganda seeing miracles accompanied with the preaching of the Gospel or believers in Asia being persecuted for their faith and yet still sharing the Good News of the Kingdom of God and many other things - all of that was not celebrated as much as what happened with the Hebraic, Torah and what happened with Jews.

It quickly seemed like it was a matter of Nationalism and Ethocentricism - in the same way Blacks from the West Indies or Africa would say all important inventions/creations in the world started with Black people (due to feeling neglected in history) and then make it out as if nothing outside of black culture was worthwhile - and with saying directly that what happened in other cultures was nice but not really important because they didn't have the same focus on Torah as the Jews did, that's when it was apparent the Gospel was not the focus or basis of appreciation - as other Jewish believers noted that no where was it the case that being a Jew meant you had to dehumanize/not appreciate or honor a Gentile in order to bless the Jewish people. I was so thankful for other Jewish believers noting how extensive it was in Jewish history where many Gentiles were honored for their work/contributions to mankind - and throughout the OT, God often used Gentiles to save Israel (from Pharaoh in Egypt with Joseph in Genesis 39-49, to the King of Perisa named Cyrus who was called the Lord's anointed one in Isaiah 40/Isaiah 42 to Jethro in Exodus 18 and many other places - many noted to have feared the Lord even though they weren't a part of Israel).

I'm more than thankful for the ways that other Jews have aided in helping others wrestle with the concept of Gentiles and how being Gentile isn't automatically equated to being negative - More here, here or here in the following:

• ← The Equality Puzzle, Part 1 | Morning Meditations
• The Equality Puzzle, Part 2 | Morning Meditations→
• ← The Equality Puzzle, Part 3 | Morning Meditations
• The Equality Puzzle, Part 4 | Morning Meditations
• Celebrating the Gentiles Among You - Kesher Journal of Messianic Judaism
• How Should we Approach the Term "Gentile"? | J.K McKee | Messianic Publications

We are all a part of a Global body - and ALL men are made in the Image of God (Genesis 9:4-6), meaning all pain/suffering happening to others where it was based on injustice was to be taken seriously by all EVERYWHERE....and all good things, no matter where they were found, were to be things others EVERYWHERE gave thanks for - for it was ultimately from the Lord anyhow according to James 1 when it comes to the origin of "EVERY GOOD and PERFECT Gift" which comes from above.


As for believers, we're meant to be "One" in Messiah:
As David Stern made clear, the phrase "Gentile by Birth" makes clear that one who is a Gentile does not stop being a Gentile when joining the Jews/believing the Gospel, though it does change if he becomes a Jewish proselyte. Even though there is a real difference spiritually between Jew and Gentile, the reality remains that the Gentiles are no longer seperated and can join the Jewish people/be one with them without having to become Jewish/follow all the customs of the Jews--as what makes the difference is FAITH. The cancelling of Eminity between Jew and Gentile can be found clearly in inspiring examples such as among Messianic Jewish believers and truly believing Arab Christians in the Land of Israel today---if ever being there. Where the world expects hate or one side trying to convert the other to its views (or at best, wary tolerance), they find a degree of trust and love from the Messiah that goes beyond politics.

On the enmity caused by the Torah, as it gave occassion to sin, the issues between Jews/Gentiles were with four components: (1) Gentile envy of the special status accorded by God to Israel in the Torah. (2) Jewish people being chosen (3) Gentile resentment of that pride (4). Mutual dislike of each others customs...but all of those factors were destroyed when the Messiah came to die for all sinners with is attoning death.

Jesus came to build a new man.

He took two men and made one man.

This has always been the way to build a man, you show the first born of flesh struggling with the second born that represents the seed.

The same struggle between Esau and Jacob, and Esau represents the flesh of the whole world.

The same can be said of two men representing two aspects of a single being.

So I would say that if a Jew thinks of his flesh, he might consider that part of his being,'' Gentile.''



I see my Being as a struggle of flesh and spirit and I consider my flesh,'' Gentile.''

But the seed within the body is the hidden Jew.




Christians have the faith in Jesus but lack the knowledge of the 7 feasts which intimately teaches who Jesus is personally.


Jews have the knowledge of the king of Jerusalem in a personal way when they alone keep the traditions of the Messiah alive.


So, I believe we can say that both are blind in part, and the creature will never be whole until the two have become one, and this has not happened yet. It happened briefly but then the gentiles departed.


I believe that the Jew should not appear before God without his brother the gentile, and the gentile can certainly not appear before God without his extra vessel, and two by two they will come. I think.

I think of numbers and how all the first born sons must have a name of the priest who is going to stand in their stead, and those that don't have a name will pay the Temple tax.


So I believe that the world will wake up one day and say,'' Oh My , I have to find a Jew, and there are not enough Jews to go around, what if I have to pay the temple tax?''


One cannot be gathered without the other unless the servant is cut in half, and then the kingdom will be as ten virgins.


The two need to become one, because both represent a part of a whole being, but the Jew cannot go to meet the gentile half way.

It is the gentile who must sacrifice and give in.



How can they become one if both have different Holy days and Sabbaths?


They cannot, and so we see the entire world coming back to the feasts of God, and then every vessel and pot in Judah and Jerusalem will be holy.



That extra vessel, that's what's needed.

Gottservant said:

Thanks Gxg, that was exactly what I meant, I am glad you saw the parallel with the good samaritan that I did. The thing is, you expect it with Gentiles, since they are full of pride (no offence if you can still humble yourself), but with Jews you would think there would be some room to move.

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More than understand....

If I may say, although there is a dynamic to the issue of the Samaritan, the reality is that pride goes for every culture and every ethnic group - to exclude the Jews from that as if it's not to be expected is to really forget the entirety of what the Lord said in the history of His people when it came to him noting directly how much they were full of pride - and something he had to humble them on multiple times when it came to thinking less of Gentiles and more of themselves instead of seeing plainly (as Yeshua noted with the Good Samaritan and other accounts throughout the OT) that it didn't matter who was or wasn't Jewish....what mattered was whether or not you wanted to follow the Lord.

As many Jews have noted repeatedly, it is the tendency of Philo-Semitism to assume that the Jewish people alone are intrinsically different in attitude from others when it comes to failures of all of humanity....and that's something that is just as ugly as demonizing all Jewish people in existence. I'm very thankful for other Jewish believers in my life who warned me/kept me in check when it came to times I was tempted to fall into the error of thinking that everyone who wasn't Jewish was expected to have bad attitudes - or assuming that it was ever a point of humility to assume Gentiles were of less character in general than people who were Hebrews/of Israel when the scriptures never pointed to that nor did other Jewish believers throughout history when it came to showing multiple times where walking in the Spirit God called men to (that of love/respect for others - honoring Him) was something done universally all over the world. ..and multiple times, the Hebrew people missed it.

From Jeroboam's Golden Calf in I Kings 12-14 to the time of the Judges when it came to Baal worship to the times of Moses when it came to The Sons of Korah in their rebellion (more discussed here ) to the times the Lord noted repeatedly His people were prideful and stiff-necked..from the Golden Calf incident in Exodus 32 to them grumbling against the Lord in Numbers 14 - to the point they were exiled from the Promised Land and many other times.
Obviously, one cannot say the Lord had ALL the Hebrews in mind when he spoke negatively against them - and likewise, one cannot assume the same when he spoke of Gentiles. There was always overlap and context....but there's no record of the Lord limiting sin alone to others simply because they were Non-Hebrew.

We also know from scripture, there were times the Jewish people engaged in idolatry, which means they engaged in other religions, but they were still Jewish/children of Israel, who were being disobedient but still Jewish. The same dynamic would also apply to those who are Jewish (as in ethnically born ) and yet are agnostics...such as how many of those in Israel are when it comes to them being both Jewis and agnostic or atheistic. There's also Jewish Kabbalists...or Jewish Marxists (much as Karl Marx was )..or Jews who happen to be involved in other things which the scriptures forbid when it came to the gods of other nations/their practices (i.e. divination, witchcraft, astrology, etc). A person who was Jewish did not cease being such due to being involved in differing religions and the scriptures never declare such at any point.
And From Moses’ words in Deuteronomy 31, it is clear that the Torah was not given to the people of Israel to make them feel better about themselves, but instead it was given as a witness against the people as evidence that they were law-breakers since he noted plainly that he predicted their rebellion to come as soon as he passed on (as discussed best in Why did Moses write down the Torah? « The Rosh Pina Project - #258 ).

Originally Posted by Gottservant

Thanks Gxg, that was exactly what I meant, I am glad you saw the parallel with the good samaritan that I did. The thing is, you expect it with Gentiles, since they are full of pride (no offence if you can still humble yourself), but with Jews you would think there would be some room to move.
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Gxg (G²);64523928 said:

From Moses’ words in Deuteronomy 31, it is clear that the Torah was not given to the people of Israel to make them feel better about themselves, but instead it was given as a witness against the people as evidence that they were law-breakers since he noted plainly that he predicted their rebellion to come as soon as he passed on

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Righteousness is something that is to be found/expected wherever men fear the Lord - being Jewish is never a guarantee nor is being Gentile a means to expect such. ...although it is the case that the Hebrews were warned by the Lord and SHOULD have known better than to rebel when it came to the Lord - and thus, for Gentiles to be seeking out the Lord was something that many have noted was meant to cause them to jealously to live out what the Lord expected of them.

Although I've referenced it before in another thread ( #74 #77 ), there's an article by one who's an Eastern Catholic Jew..and to see what she said:

• The Faithfulness of Israel | The Groom's Family
• The Faithfulness of Israel II | The Groom's Family

That said, as Paul noted in Romans 2 when it came to righteousness being defined for all, the Lord did not look at the Jews as intrinsically better than Gentiles by nature....and he often noted his Goodness to Gentiles of all kinds, be it those who were Greeks or others related to the Hebrews such as Arabs - or others who were Black Africans and many others ...told repeatedly they were to be proud of being Gentiles/not seeing themselves as "second class" or as people that were inherently "dirty" compared to the Hebrews...the entire point of the Good Samaritan parable when it came to celebrating who was the most PURE in the eyes of the Lord/doing as the Lord commanded.

At the end of the day, what mattered was whether or not you're a disciple - and with the rest of humanity, what mattered was whether or not what you produced was good...

The Lord could've chosen ANY other group or people to do the job and it would have always reflected his own Majesty - not the inherent superiority of one group above another. In example, one can take the language of the Hebrews when assuming that it the language God speaks in primarily because He chose to reveal himself through Jewish people. At all times one must bear in mind that just because the Lord chose to utilize one from the descendants of Shem/the language of Hebrew doesn't mean it in/of itself was the ONLY language that God ever spoke. God could have chosen any culture for the job He sovereignly gave to Abram. ....and if one wishes to be technical, it was not always the case that even the Jews themselves spoke Hebrew all the time. One can go to 2 Kings 18:25-27 and Isaiah 36:10-12 for a clear example when the Israelities asked another to speak to them in Aramaic since they didn't understand Hebrew.

As one Jewish believer said best,the Lord speaking to the Jews in Hebrew doesn't mean Hebrew is the most sacred language. For there were others prior to the concept of Jews developing that the Lord spoke to. ...and they would've been considered to be "pagans". In the land of Cannan, what of those prior to Abraham that the Lord may've spoken to? As it stands, there are many scholars who've argued that Hebrew did not develop until about 1000 BCE. ..and that before that, it was simply Canaanite, which evolved from Phoenician. The Canaanite Language, also know as Phoenician is a branch of the West Semitic languages that include Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Arabic and others. Where Hebrew and Aramaic are closely related to the Canaanite language in vocabulary and grammar, Arabic is a little further off from grammatical proximity, but still retains much common vocabulary.

Canaanite was spoken in Lebanon for thousands of years, and most of its lexicon is retained within the Lebanese colloquial dialect. With the language of Hebrew, one must consider the Arabic language and how the Hebrew and the Arabic really have the same root. For the word is “EL” in Hebrew and it’s “AL” in Aramaic. They came from the same word. The reason this is noted is because the fact that God showed himself/spoke to Hebrew to the Jews doesn't have to mean that it was God's "special/secret" language and a sign that Hebrews were superior to Gentiles by nature...for many have said how Hebrew would only have had significance to the Jews whom God spoke to when it came to their own tongue.

If God wished to spread the Gospel/revelation of Himself to the Chinese in their language---as he has already been doing so---he'd be more than free to do so. It could have been the case where the Lord found an "Abram" in the land of South East Asia and we all would've seen the Lord develop Biblical history through that end of the world----with us saying that Vietanemeese or Thai is the Language of the Lord.








It all tends to make sense if seeing things from the perspective of a play or a drama----as just because someone gets elected to having a staring role in the play doesn't mean that the director's choosing to speak that person's language equates to that language being sacred. It simply means that the director chose to utilize that language as a means of showing what he wanted at the moment.

And going back to what was said earlier, the Lord made clear that His choosing them had NOTHING to do with Israel's righteousness (i.e. language, dress, culture, etc) - in light of the sheer amount of times He declared how he had considered wiping them out (and almost did in Numbers 14 with the spies report of the land/causing the camp to rebell):
It was never about the righteousness of Israel .....NOR was it about the inferiority of the Gentiles compared to the Jews.

Whenever it came to assuming Gentiles were naturally more prone to sin than the Jewish people, the Lord had to address that repeatedly in order to help people see where that can lead to missing Him. Of course, the Apostles noted it as well to the Gentiles - for Romans 1-3 is rather direct on the matter on how NO man is with excuse in saying that they do not know God since he has written law/truth on their hearts - and they will be judged based on what they know. That said, Yeshua was very clear on what He expected of His people - and made sure no one didn't know what he was about when it came to assuming the worst on other groups and the best of ourselves:
And as it concerns trusting in Him and who He is...
John 8 is another text that speaks directly on the issue...

And of course, Gentiles who were ready to accept the Messiah were to be seen as others who loved the Lord - not as people who were deemed to be others you'd not expect to be humble to recieive salvation.
Sin is sin and it's a universal epidemic that all have endured. It's not meant to be a matter of "Well, I expect it from Gentiles but not from the Jews!" - but rather a matter of expecting it from Humanity/anyone human. That can be a hard thing to accept for many when ...and if having the mindset of being chosen backwards to mean one is inherently better (and for reference, it has been discussed before in #46 #106 #42 #39 #58 #64 #247 #280 )

To Hebrews that didn't want that, God didn't say others should be surprised - and to Gentiles who wanted it, He didn't say others should be surprised. The Samaritan parallel was meant to remind others of what the Lord ALWAYS had in mind when it came to who qualified as a true follower of Him. This is something many Jews have had issue with due to assuming only Gentiles can be full of pride - despite the fact that everyone from Abraham down was Gentile/from Pagan culture and the Lord warned directly that the Jews should NEVER even think they're above doing what the rest of humanity does.

God is for people.....all over the world...

Gottservant said:

I mean surely Jews know enough about Israel to extend the hand of Grace to those outside.

Perhaps it is painful, with all the persecution we face.

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Sadly, when there's a lack of remembering where Grace was already shown to others in desperate need of it, it is difficult for them to recognize the working of it in others - no different than what was noted in Luke 7:36-51 when the Lord had to check a Pharisee inviting him to His home and yet failing to bestow on the Messiah the honor he deserved due to assuming others were "sinners" whereas he wasn't and that he automatically knew better than others - but what he had was an engagement with pride. ....common to all of mankind/expected when people (be it Jew or Gentile) don't recognize Him.

As the Lord has done amazing things IN SPITE of Israel's shortcomings, so it is that those of Israel can recognize/appreciate where the Lord has done and accomplished amazing things from the Gentiles DESPITE them lacking in differing things just as Israel is. For ultimately, any good goes solely to the Lord and we can all celebrate God's work in all of us.

Gottservant said:

...I think of the Gentiles I want to know more and more
...but when I think of the Jews I just want to be there (in Israel).

Are Jews not allowed to know anything?
Or is it because they trust in God they shouldn't need to?

My sense of my own Jewishness reflects the world, so this shouldn't be happening.
I don't want to sell myself short as a Jew, that's why I am wondering how there could be a difference in my desire for knowledge depending on where the knowledge is coming from, since all knowledge comes from the fear of the Lord.

Is it that when you are in Israel you don't need to know anything?
Or are the Gentiles so knowledge obsessed that they make knowledge a burden I want to be rid of?

Why don't I just have the one attitude to knowledge (whether I am thinking of Jews or Gentiles)?

If I were the Devil, I would be saying that the Jews think they know everything.
But if I were a man among men (and Gentile), I would be saying the Jews don't know any more than me.

Maybe Jews are supposed to keep knowledge a secret?

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Maybe a racist paradigm like this is the problem and source of your question. Stop trying to box people in according to their background and maybe you will see God in them and accept them on a person to person basis.

Just sayin'....

Gottservant said:

Gxg, what you wrote was so fascinating, there is an incredible depth to God's work with His people. I get the sense that the Devil works to poison both Jew and Gentile alike, but the Jew turns to his God and the Gentile to his strength.

But it seems there is no plot to make them work together, since that would destroy the Devil's other plans. So it is that the Gentile isolates himself from the Jew, and the Jew becomes forlorn after his God.

It is a sick world. I can only imagine what it puts God through to try to hold it together. There is room to work together, if we remember that we have a common enemy in the Devil. Allah does not save from the Devil any more than God does, or any other manifestation of God for that matter. To say that Grace covers it, is an understatment. We must definitely work together.

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Anytime there's an ideology that says Gentiles don't look to God and the Jews look to Him, it is still an issue of not really seeing the Lord's work as He intended it since there's nothing in scripture saying that Gentiles don't look to God's strength while Jews do.

Jews can isolate themselves just as much as Gentiles - and either we trust in what His Word says about BOTH being used of the Lord/turning to him (As well as having others in both groups not looking to Him) ...or we really lack a lot in awareness of who He is. Gentile and Jew have already been brought together in Christ - Romans 2, Romans 11, Romans 13, Acts 11 and many other places.

ContraMundum said:

Stop trying to box people in according to their background and maybe you will see God in them and accept them on a person to person basis.

Just sayin'....

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Something worth wrestling with - as it is problematic the moment one assumes only Jews turn to God and only Gentiles turn to their strength. For such an ideology was never what Yeshua nor the Apostles or the Prophets advocated.....

Gxg (G²);64529731 said:

Anytime there's an ideology that says Gentiles don't look to God and the Jews look to Him, it is still an issue of not really seeing the Lord's work as He intended it since there's nothing in scripture saying that Gentiles don't look to God's strength while Jews do.

Jews can isolate themselves just as much as Gentiles - and either we trust in what His Word says about BOTH being used of the Lord/turning to him (As well as having others in both groups not looking to Him) ...or we really lack a lot in awareness of who He is. Gentile and Jew have already been brought together in Christ - Romans 2, Romans 11, Romans 13, Acts 11 and many other places.

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Reality is reality G, You show Romans, and Acts, but what in the world does that have to do with current reality?

You speak of a forgotten reality when Gentiles bound themselves to the Jew, and the gentile stayed loyal to God's ways and was persecuted right along with the Jew.

This lasted for 100 years until the gentile abandoned the Jew and the persecution brought on by doing things that made a person look like a Jew, like keeping the Passover of Christ.

Christians who abandoned the Jew, and abandoned all of God's ways, his entire worship system began killing Jew and gentile if that believing gentile kept Jewish traditions that happened to be God's traditions.

The gentile wanted to live and not die as the Jew. The gentile did not want to pay the steep Jewish Tax and they didn't want their family being killed, so they abandoned the Jew, and anything of Christ that looked Jewish, and Jesus was a Jew.



The only issue is the refused acknowledgment of Gentiles abandoning the Sabbaths and Holy days that teach of Christ, and the abandonment of their brother, the Jew.

So the Jew stood alone, and this has been the reality, the brotherhood was broken and ripped apart by that abandonment.

That's reality, the fact that the believing Gentile and believing Jew have two separate religions, and it can easily be seen anywhere, especially this forum.

How can two walk together if one is trying to kill the other?

HannibalFlavius said:

Reality is reality G, You show Romans, and Acts, but what in the world does that have to do with current reality?

You speak of a forgotten reality when Gentiles bound themselves to the Jew, and the gentile stayed loyal to God's ways and was persecuted right along with the Jew.?

This lasted for 100 years until the gentile abandoned the Jew and the persecution brought on by doing things that made a person look like a Jew, like keeping the Passover of Christ.

Christians who abandoned the Jew, and abandoned all of God's ways, his entire worship system began killing Jew and gentile if that believing gentile kept Jewish traditions that happened to be God's traditions.

The gentile wanted to live and not die as the Jew. The gentile did not want to pay the steep Jewish Tax and they didn't want their family being killed, so they abandoned the Jew, and anything of Christ that looked Jewish, and Jesus was a Jew. The only issue is the refused acknowledgment of Gentiles abandoning the Sabbaths and Holy days that teach of Christ, and the abandonment of their brother, the Jew.

So the Jew stood alone, and this has been the reality, the brotherhood was broken and ripped apart by that abandonment.

That's reality, the fact that the believing Gentile and believing Jew have two separate religions, and it can easily be seen anywhere, especially this forum.

How can two walk together if one is trying to kill the othe

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Shalom H,

Respectfully, I am not really certain as to where you may be trying to base much of the claims you've made - as it's not a PAST event where Jews/Gentiles worked together in the Lord - nor do I see a lot of reason for why it is really something one seems emphatic on. As it concerns current times, we already have the example of the author of "Tortured for Christ" Rev. Richard Wurmbrand , who is known in differing Messianic Jewish circles due to how he spoke in them often as an international Messianic Jewish leader in the body - being Jewish himself and the creator of the global ministry known as "Voice of the Martyrs" that documents persecution of believers all over the globe/is dedicated to honoring their struggle in the Lord just as the Early Church honored believers wherever they were - be it Jew or Gentile - for them suffering for the Faith ( more here and here, #231 /#235 )...

And of course, there are many others besides that - Maoz Israel being one of them in the work it has been doing with Jews and Gentiles:


Here

There's also the work of places such as the International House of Prayer - if aware of their work called Israel Mandate | Israel Mandate - International House of Prayer ( - working with multiple Messianic congregations (from Dan Juster to Asher Intrater and his "Revive Israel" ministries and others) when it comes to raising up house of prayer to intercede for the work of God - Gentiles honoring the Jewish people and Jewish people blessing the Gentiles in the common work of serving the Messiah.

More can be said besides that for current status - as what God is doing globally is pretty amazing when seeing his workings. For another example, I was blessed some time ago to come across an excellent read - in regards to those concerned about what the Lord is doing with Israeli State when it comes to the connections made with Asia and the ways that others passionate for Jewish culture on that side of the street are coming to faith in Messiah. The read is called "Israel and God's Tsunami" and it's by a man known as Peter Tsukahira - an Asian American Israeli who is married to a Messianic Jew .










For more:

• The Restoration of Israeli Missions​
• Peter Tsukahira | TiAC | The Israel Asia Connection​
• God's Tsunami - Peter Tsukahira's blog​
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Peter Tsukahira - "LEARNING BY THE SPIRIT" - September 8, 2012 ...​
  
  
  
  Word from Mount Carmel, Peter Tsukahira - The High Price of Cheap Grace ​
  
  
  
  

So to claim there are no CURRENT ways Jews and Gentiles have been working together isn't really accurate when seeing what has been going down for the past century. On the rest of what you stated, I must say that (IMHO) it really doesn't pertain to scripture when it comes to claiming Gentiles who believe the Lord and Jews who believe the Lord have seperate religions nor does it really cover the many instances today of Jews/Gentiles together in the Lord....and that has been seen/discussed and addressed repeatedly here.


For there's only one Gospel - One person whose blood was shed for us - and one way to connect with Him. Unless scripture is really the focus or to be dealt with when claiming Gentiles don't turn to God and Jews do turn to God, it is of no consequence. For scripture was already discussed concerning point for point where Gentiles turned to the Lord and sought him - and the same thing goes for where it was never Jews who alone were persecuted by Gentiles (seeing the many times it occurred to Gentiles from Jews....the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade being one amongst many to deal with when seeing how many Jews from the Spanish and Portuguese Empires treated those enslaved/profited from them - despite them being made in the Image of God and despite many of those enslaved being Jewish themselves).

To avoid that is to avoid what other Jewish believers have long noted to be present in reality - and there's no real argument on that. Of course we have many instances in history where Gentiles persecuted Jews - the Inquisition in 16th century Spain burned at the stake Jewish believers in Jesus that celebrated the Passover and Hitler was convinced he was doing God’s will in attempting to annihilate the Jewish people as he quoted from Luther during some of the years Luther had mistaken views (despite where Luther went through changes as seen when one reads "That Jesus was born a Jew" and the wonderful things Luther said in his early career about the Jews and their culture and language...as Brother ContraMundum has noted before - #228 )...and many other instances besides that in the anti-Semitism displayed by Christians.

On the other hand, The Synagogue rejected the early Jewish believers in Messiah, who were originally called Nazarene Jews. After the Temple fell, the Pharisees became the leadership, which led to today’s Orthodox Rabbinical Judaism - and the rabbis sought to preserve and unify the Jewish community under their teachings and excluded any other forms of Judaism.....leading to the eventual casting out of Nazarene Jews from rabbinical synagogues. Through different historical events eventually the loss of a community of Messianic Jews resulted in the loss of the bridge of understanding between Judaism and the Church - unfortunate since Messianic Jews could have kept alive the true picture of the Jewish Messiah and helped to avoid the future anti-Semitism in the Church. ...but even further than that, there was extensive history of Jewish people claiming to be God's people and yet dehumanizing other ethnic groups. That occurred in the Civil Rights era when it came to how many Jews spoke negatively toward blacks/didn't want to support them in their struggle even though they wanted to advance the cause of their people being protected - something unfortunate in light of the extensive history between Jews and Blacks during that time who went against the norm - and it even though there has been much collaboration between Jews and Gentiles (especially in the arts - from Bob Marley to Lenny Krativs to Andre Crouch and others), it has been consistently ignored by other Jews who sadly carry much prejudice toward Gentiles.....a form of racism.

Claiming Christians abandoned the Jew already avoids where Jews who were Christians were already persecuted by other Jews who didn't believe in Yeshua - or support forms of Judaism that existed and yet were not in line with what the commands of the Lord was about (as discussed before ). It'd be reactionary to go on speaking of all the ways Christians harmed Jews when ignoring where it was never anywhere close to that. From the Bar Kokhba revolt where Jewish Christians were called "traitors" by Jewish patriots to times Gentile Christians were sold out to Roman authorities by others in Judaism itself who felt competition with Christians - and others who had the mindset of assuming each/everything associated with being Christian was "negative" despite where the Apostles already worn the name proudly from Acts 11 (where they were first called Christians in Antioch) to I Peter 4 where Peter speaks on bearing the name "Christian" and Acts 26:28 amongst many other places.

The same also goes for forgetting where Gentiles were already keeping Holy Days and others (assuming the mindset that all Gentiles were automatically being kept from them because others didn't have the mindset they HAD to do so in order to gain God's approval in light of where Christ brought new dynamics to the Law/Torah) didn't wish to square with that - this being addressed before in previous discussions (such as here and here).

There are many excellent works on the issue - one of them being Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century (Studia Post-Biblica)... by Ray Pritz .....a comprehensive study of the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem church, their history and doctrines, their relations with both synagogue and the growing Gentile church...with the author analyzing all sources, Jewish, Christian, and pagan, which can throw light on the sect and its ultimate mysterious disappearance.

Again, as it concerns Gentiles and Jews having bridges, we already have multiple documented cases of Jews/Gentiles working together in the Messiah and suffering together - from the Civil Rights era to those suffering on the Mission Field to those who have suffered throughout Churches in the Middle East. Pastor Richard Wurmbrand - founder of "Voice of the Martyrs" (which documents suffering and persecution of believers everywhere - be it Jew or Gentile ) is Jewish and has long pointed that out.


Other Messianics such as J.T. McKee have long dealt with those issues you mentioned in-depth .....point for point (more here here, here and here) - and more has been shared when it comes to Nicene Christianity and the many even in Jewish culture who did not have issue with it (as seen in #7/#23 ).

Outside of that, to be honest, by all means you're free to respond to whatever I may say - but, respectfully I don't really care to interact or respond to you further - nor was I really asking for thoughts on what you said since you were not a focus. Discussion on the Word of God is fine, of course, but outside of it/addressing it I'm not really focused on it....specifically when it seems there are more claims made than the Scriptures tackled - or not really tackling things and claiming "nothing was said" when others took the time to do so. Thus, till that can change, you're on ignore. Shalom

Meh.