End of Days - Christian Survivalist Groups

HisSparkPlug

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Interesting thread.
There's a man in New Zealand / Australia named Neville Johnson whom was given a vision of having an end time ministry to help people prepare, much like what you've described @ HiddenOne. Here's his site: The Academy of Light

Haven't listened to this video to see how applicable it is yet, but I know he has a few on the end times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhQ5Lsti7F4
 
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keras

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What everyone should be aware of by now, is the world is facing a very dramatic upheaval, that will change our way of life. The loss of our modern infrastructure caused by this many prophesied Day of the Lord's wrath, will reset our civilization. The next event we can expect will be the fulfilment of Psalm 83, when an Islamic confederation starts to attack Israel. The Lord Himself will destroy them, but this judgement/punishment will also affect all the world. It will be this terrible and shocking disaster that will enable the establishment of a One World Govt, but the Lord's righteous people will gather and go to live in all of the cleared and cleansed holy Land. They will be a 'light to the nations' and will send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming kingdom of Jesus.
What it is that will actually cause this worldwide disaster, prophesied as a judgement by fire, will be a coronal mass ejection, Isaiah 30:26, or a close by-pass of a comet, or both.
My preparations for this, as we are told in Isaiah 26:20-21, is to have an insulated container stocked with food and water for a few days. This is the best shelter, I believe to ride out the extreme heat, violent storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, [sited well inland] of this Day. Jer.4:7, Isaiah 24, 2 Peter 3:10
 
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Time Watcher said in post 18:

Revelation speaks of those who will become believers during the coming tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7; 13:15; 14:13]

Note that none of those verses says that they became believers during the tribulation, instead of sometime before it.

Time Watcher said in post 18:

All on the earth will experience the Lord's unprecedented coming hour [time] of trial and there is no promise to protect any who will become believers except the 144000 of the children of Israel [Revelation 7:1-8]

Regarding "the hour of trial" (Revelation 3:10), the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the earth, in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the classroom, in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Time Watcher said in post 18:

All on the earth will experience the Lord's unprecedented coming hour [time] of trial and there is no promise to protect any who will become believers except the 144000 of the children of Israel [Revelation 7:1-8]

Regarding the 144,000, they will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church, for all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
 
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John S said in post 19:

If your "Survivalist" group is going to have guns to defend themselves, then they SURELY are antichristian.

Or at least not Biblical Christians. For under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39,44, Matthew 26:52; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

Believers don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for believers of what they're to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). Believers are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23). During the future tribulation, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11). Obedient believers shouldn't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and shouldn't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but should hate their lives in this world if they're to retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38).

Also, Christians are commanded to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).
 
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keras said in post 26:

The next event we can expect will be the fulfilment of Psalm 83, when an Islamic confederation starts to attack Israel.

If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph (the author of Psalms 83), but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't happen until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls, and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

keras said in post 26:

My preparations for this, as we are told in Isaiah 26:20-21, is to have an insulated container stocked with food and water for a few days.

Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

Once you have a few 50-foot shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury the shipping containers. The trenches need to be deep enough so that once you've put the shipping containers into them you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 20 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit) all year 'round.

Once you've put the shipping containers in the trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a long, extendable, 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole pipe with some sort of thick metal or thick PVC-like, perhaps screw-on, cover that can be locked from both the outside when you're away from the container, and from the inside when you're in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far in the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a screen and side-vented cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that it, as much as possible, appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you're hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up the scent of you and your family and pets emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you're still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about who you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they're not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them because before the tribulation they'd said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone or landline phone, or even in your car or home, or in any (e.g.) workplace, supermarket or restaurant equipped with surveillance cameras, as all of these could be currently tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you're out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone with you but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, place it in a small box, like a cigar box, and wrap the box completely with foil, so that no cell phone signals can reach the cell phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the cell phone is in the foil-wrapped box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the cell phone doesn't ring, that means no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there's not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there only because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there's any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water. And the cities have plenty of shelter.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to be able to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped within the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they're confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).
 
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keras

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Bible2, your lengthy and somewhat confused replies, fail to properly address the next event; that is; the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. It will happen in a literal Day - 'yom' in Hebrew. And it will literally fulfil all the graphic prophetic descriptions of that Day.
This is what we must shelter from, although the only real way to survive, is to fully trust in the Lord's protection.
Why mix up the Gog attack and the Tribulation with the DoL? Zephaniah 3:8 spells it out most clearly; Wait for the Day....pour out My wrath and burning anger....the whole earth will be consumed. This is NOT the Gog attack or the battle of Armageddon.
 
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keras said in post 30:

Bible2, your lengthy and somewhat confused replies, fail to properly address the next event; that is; the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

keras said in post 30:

Why mix up the Gog attack and the Tribulation with the DoL?

Note that it hasn't been said that the future tribulation will be part of the future day of the Lord, just as it hasn't been said (as the pre-tribulation view mistakenly says) that the future tribulation will be the day of the Lord's wrath. For no scripture says or requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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keras

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Bible2 - TL/DR [google that]

You write as though you are a teacher, not really interested in discussion. I can point out scripture proving you wrong, but that only seems to redouble your pedantic efforts.
I believe the real events will come crashing upon us very soon, then truth will prevail.
logostelos
 
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Echolipse

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Or at least not Biblical Christians. For under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39,44, Matthew 26:52; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5).


Also, Christians are commanded to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).


I beg to differ on this subject....

Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.


In these scriptures John had full right to use his weapon to defend Christ...

Luke 22:49-53 (NAS) 49 And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50 And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. 52 And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, "Have you come out with swords and clubs as against a robber? 53 "While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

Matthew 26:51-56 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?" 55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

John 18:10-11 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?"

------
So by your statement, I take it if someone breaks into my house and is armed, I will have no right to defend myself and family with my sword/knife/guns?
 
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parousia70

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Bible2 - TL/DR [google that]

I believe the real events will come crashing upon us very soon, then truth will prevail.
logostelos

When you say "Very Soon" do you mean the same thing Jesus and the apostles meant when they told their original 1st century audience these events were coming "Very Soon", or do you mean something different?
 
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Echolipse said in post 33:

Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

Luke 22:36b means that every believer should obtain the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17, Hebrews 4:12). The "two swords" which by themselves are enough for all believers together (Luke 22:38) represent the two parts of God's Word: the Old Testament and the New Testament. Luke 22:36b can't mean that every believer must obtain a physical weapon, for otherwise two physical weapons wouldn't have been enough for all of the apostles (Luke 22:38). And Luke 22:36b can't mean that any believer should obtain a physical weapon with which to attack other people, even in self-defense, for believers are elsewhere commanded not to defend themselves when they're attacked, but to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). For those who take up a physical weapon to attack other people, even in self-defense, will perish by a weapon (Matthew 26:52).

Believers don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for believers of what they're to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). Believers are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23). During the future tribulation, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11). Obedient believers shouldn't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and shouldn't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but should hate their lives in this world if they're to retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38).

Also, Christians are commanded to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that means that they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

Echolipse said in post 33:

So by your statement, I take it if someone breaks into my house and is armed, I will have no right to defend myself and family with my sword/knife/guns?

Are you referring to a robbery? If so, most robbers aren't interested in harming anyone if they can simply get the goods they want. So just give them what they want, taking "joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance" (Hebrews 10:34). "Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth" (Luke 12:15). "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:19-21).
 
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parousia70 said in post 34:

When you say "Very Soon" do you mean the same thing Jesus and the apostles meant when they told their original 1st century audience these events were coming "Very Soon", or do you mean something different?

In verses like Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).
 
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Echolipse

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Luke 22:36b means that every believer should obtain the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17, Hebrews 4:12). The "two swords" which by themselves are enough for all believers together (Luke 22:38) represent the two parts of God's Word: the Old Testament and the New Testament. Luke 22:36b can't mean that every believer must obtain a physical weapon, for otherwise two physical weapons wouldn't have been enough for all of the apostles (Luke 22:38). And Luke 22:36b can't mean that any believer should obtain a physical weapon with which to attack other people, even in self-defense, for believers are elsewhere commanded not to defend themselves when they're attacked, but to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). For those who take up a physical weapon to attack other people, even in self-defense, will perish by a weapon (Matthew 26:52).

Believers don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for believers of what they're to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). Believers are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23). During the future tribulation, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11). Obedient believers shouldn't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and shouldn't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but should hate their lives in this world if they're to retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38).

Also, Christians are commanded to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that means that they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

I've understood it completely opposite. For when John used his sword against the guard, Jesus didn't tell him no for using it, he told him no because what was occured was God's plan.

While yes, we are called to love our enemies, but the Lord doesn't call us to just sit back and allow our selves to be killed when it's not the Lord's time to call us home.

So what if believers are Police/Deputy Sheriff's? It is against God's word for them to be in that profession and carry weapons to protect the citizens? For in Matthew 5:9 - He says they are blessed. (Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.).



Are you referring to a robbery? If so, most robbers aren't interested in harming anyone if they can simply get the goods they want. So just give them what they want, taking "joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance" (Hebrews 10:34). "Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth" (Luke 12:15). "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:19-21).

I am referring to anyone attacking you or your family when you have the opportunity to defend yourself. With robbers, some don't intend to come in there to hurt anyone, many end up hurting someone because the victim saw them or the suspect got scared. If someone broke in, you don't know what their intentions are, are you going to wait till they kill one of your family members while you do nothing? What if that wasn't God's time for him to go, but the devil did his job and stole him early?
 
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Echolipse,
have you read up much on what the revolutionary groups of 1st cent. Judea were like? The freedom fighters had the observance of the law on their side, ideologically. The Galileans were especially inclined to separate and become independent. Jesus located there and called several Galileans, it seems, on purpose, to make it clear that the new mission of the Gospel was a replacement for their mission. When John struck the priest's servant, it was sort of the last vestige of their thinking to be stopped; the very last was probably Acts 1 where they were still asking about Israel's kingdom.

It was quite a mistaken and destructive movement as the 1st century ground along. I don't see why it is not the 'rebellion that desolates' that Daniel 8 predicted, in that he puts a timestamp on things in 9, and provides a rough prediction of it all at the end of 9.

The most confusing item in your last post is that the swipe at the ear was 'not wrong, but not God's purpose.' Could you explain more on that?
 
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keras

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When you say "Very Soon" do you mean the same thing Jesus and the apostles meant when they told their original 1st century audience these events were coming "Very Soon", or do you mean something different?

What Haggai says, Haggai Means
The Book of Haggai the prophet is dated circa 520BCE, the second year of the Persian king Darius. The three prophets, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi all belong to that critical period of the Jewish restoration to the holy Land, following the 70 years of Babylonian captivity. Careful reading of these three prophets shows that they understood this restoration of just the House of Judah to be only a preliminary, even a symbolic step to an eventual great restoration of all the 12 tribes of Israel. They had the writings of Jeremiah, especially his chapters 30 and 31, also Isaiah and Ezekiel prophesy about the eventual gathering and joining of Judah and Israel back into their heritage, so they knew that with only Judah coming back, the final days had not come. They prophesy the great promises of God, of His plan to have a people in all of the holy Land as His witnesses, displaying a light to the nations and proclaiming the gospel of the coming Kingdom.
Today we see the House of Judah back in a part of the Land. They fulfill the prophecy of Jesus about the budding of the fig tree. That they still do not represent the complete restoration, is evidenced by their confused religious beliefs and widespread denial of God and His precepts. The Jews at present in no way show themselves worthy to receive the holy Spirit, as is prophesied that all the true Israelites will receive in the last days. So we await another gathering and settling of the Lord’s righteous people back into all of the Holy Land. In order for this to take place, the current inhabitants of the area given to Abraham must be cleared out and the Land cleansed. Haggai tells us twice how that will be achieved: I shall shake the heavens and the earth, I shall overthrow kings, break the power of the heathen nations and destroy military strength. This refers to the Day of the Lord, a still to happen worldwide, judgement/punishment prophesied to completely clear the entire Middle East and devastate the whole earth. Ezekiel 30:1-5
The Word, as given to us through Haggai, reiterates three times the date of Kislev 24. Firstly the example is given of how something holy becomes unclean by contact and the Lord says; The condition of the nation before Me is unclean and anything they offer to Me is unclean. The second time Kislev 24 is mentioned, the Lord says: I struck you with storms, mildew and poor crops, but you still did not return to Me, but now the foundation of the Temple is laid, I shall bless you. The third time Kislev 24 is prophesied, it is the Day the Lord takes action, the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, Many prophesies throughout the Bible describe this Day, a Day of extreme heat, winds, earthquakes and tsunamis, for which the only literal explanation is a coronal mass ejection sunstrike, a seemingly natural disaster that lets secular people continue in their disbelief and sets the scene for the establishment of a One World Government, to be eventually ruled by a dictator.
That Kislev 24 is a very important date, is proved by how in the past, in 164 BCE, Kislev 24 was the day the Temple was rededicated after Antiochius Epiphanes was defeated. This is why the festival of Hanukah is celebrated on that day, commencing at evening. Then again on Kislev 24 1917, General Allenby liberated Jerusalem after defeating the Turks at Beersheva.
We can be sure that Kislev 24 is highly significant, for now the peoples are unclean; despite being punished in various ways. On that Day will come the terrible fire judgement, as Moses prophesied in Deut. 32:34-35 & 22, then from that Day forward the Lord will bless His people and the Land will be fruitful, they will build a Temple greater than the former and in the holy Land, He will grant shalom. [peace and security] Deut 30:1-10

The Torah reading on the special Sabbath of Hanukah is:
Zechariah 2:10-13 Sing, daughter of Zion, rejoice for the Lord is coming and His spirit will rest upon you. Many peoples will give their allegiance to Him on that Day and they will be His righteous people. Then you will know that the Lord has sent me to you. The Lord will claim Judah as His own portion of the holy Land and will make Jerusalem His choice. Be silent all of humanity, before the Lord, for He has roused Himself from His holy dwelling place. Isaiah 42:14-15
Kislev 24 this year is November 27th, 6 days from now.
 
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Echolipse said in post 37:

While yes, we are called to love our enemies, but the Lord doesn't call us to just sit back and allow our selves to be killed when it's not the Lord's time to call us home.

If it's not the Lord's time to call us home, then he won't allow murderers to come and kill us, or allow any other form of death to come to us (Psalms 91). But if it is our time, then he could allow us to be murdered, and we should face that situation without any fear (Revelation 2:10) or complaint, but even with thankfulness (1 Thessalonians 5:18), that we can then enter into heaven, which is far better than remaining in this world (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Also, what gives us the right to kill someone attacking us, if it's not the Lord's time for that person to die? God might still want to save that person's soul and help him to change and be a nice person. And how can God do that if we kill that person while he's still an unrepentant unbeliever, so that when he dies his soul will go straight down to hell for all eternity? If Stephen the martyr in the book of Acts could ask God to forgive those who were stoning him to death (Acts 7:59-60), so that even they might be saved, then we should also show mercy to everyone (Matthew 5:7, Matthew 6:15), even if they're about to kill us.

Echolipse said in post 37:

So what if believers are Police/Deputy Sheriff's? It is against God's word for them to be in that profession and carry weapons to protect the citizens?

It's against God's Word for them to ever use those weapons, for believers aren't to employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c).

But God does allow civil authorities to employ weapons and violence against criminals (Romans 13:3-4), and believers are to obey and pay their taxes to support civil authorities (Romans 13:1-6).

Echolipse said in post 37:

For in Matthew 5:9 - He says they are blessed. (Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.).

Matthew 5:9 can refer to those believers who turn strife into peace not by employing weapons or any other violence against people, but by being peaceable, i.e. by employing calmness and soft words to a situation (Proverbs 15:1a).

Echolipse said in post 37:

If someone broke in, you don't know what their intentions are, are you going to wait till they kill one of your family members while you do nothing?

If you're worried about being killed by an intruder, near to your bedroom build a "safe room", such as a walk-in closet that you can fit with a steel door that an intruder can't kick open or shoot bullets through. Then you can hide inside there while an intruder is in your house. Or build a "secret room", with a hidden door that an intruder won't even notice. The worst thing you can do is start a shoot-out in your house between you and an intruder, which could result in the unnecessary death of both you and your family, or the accidental death of an innocent person (such as a relative or friend who is making a surprise visit), or the tragic death of a harmless stranger (such as an unarmed, peaceful homeless man who entered the unlocked window of what he thought was an empty house, just to get some shelter for a freezing night).
 
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