Are the Roman Catholic Church Biblical?

Status
Not open for further replies.

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,865
1,714
59
New England
✟512,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I like the whole "Catholics says they don't get all their beliefs from the bible."

Well, duh. Catholics were around before the bible. They wrote the bible. They compiled the bible. They said what books were to be in the bible.

The belief that one must base their view on the bible in every way, shape and form is a modern invention. It was never believed by ancient Christians because it could not be believed by ancient Christians.

Before there was a bible, there was the Christian faith- from which comes the bible.

So- what is the authentic faith? It can't be the one that is based on the bible.

//I just logically destroyed sola scriptura. I am on a roll tonight...

Wow...

Where did you learn Logic.... where did you learn the correct definition of Sola Scriptura, you built a straw man and then burned it down...

The Roman chuch says X,Y,Z you belive them, they claim it you buy it....

Roman Catholic freely admit not every thing they beliove come form the bible.... You may not but others do:

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : while commenting on the documents of Vatican II (article nine of Dei verbum), stated that “no one is seriously able to maintain that there is a proof in Scripture for every catholic doctrine.” See Joseph Ratzinger’s “The Transmission of Divine Revelation” in Herbert Vorgrimler, ed., Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II (New York: Herder and Herder, 1969), Vol. 3, p. 195.

Lets be serious.... for a change.

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,865
1,714
59
New England
✟512,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some of the apostles' original writings are preserved as copies and we are grateful to be able to enjoy them today.

It is written:

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." 2 Thessalonians 2:15 NKJV

We are commanded to obey both the apostles' oral preaching/teachings and also the commands in their letters.

It is written:

"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 14:37" NKJV

It is also written that we are to be obedient to the bishops who rule over us:

"Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever....17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:7-8;17 NKJV

Good Day, Jan

Welcome....

Could you please provide a primary historical source of excatly what Paul told the Thess... church that is not included in the bible, who (person or people) he told it to and where this spoken discussion took place and when it happened.


Does Rome have a published interpretation of what they think this verse means.....?

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

Mediaeval

baptizatus sum
Sep 24, 2012
857
185
✟29,873.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian

The bible is not infallible
...

Jan001,

The Bible is both inerrant and infallible. Infallibility literally means unfailing. The Scriptures unfailingly (infallibly) teach the truth that God has revealed. If you deny that infallibility implies inerrancy, what becomes of papal infallibility?

The problem with your other assertions about the unique authority of the RCC is that they are based on the words of fallible men subject to error. There is no certainty in those claims without inerrant Scriptural backing. Faith demands certainty and so must have God's Word for its basis. Only fallible human beings have ever claimed that the RCC's interpretations of Scripture are inerrant & worthy of blind acceptance.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mediaeval

baptizatus sum
Sep 24, 2012
857
185
✟29,873.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
That stinks. I guess you had to throw your bible out then- seeing as those successors are the ones that determined which scriptures are infallible and which were not.
Otherwise- your bible is definitively not infallible.

Your argument is a logical failure. You can't say the bible is infallible while saying the successors and their councils were fallible. If they are fallible, then there is no way to say which books of the bible are infallible, which renders the bible fallible.



He built His Church on Peter. Peter is the rock, the foundation of the Church.

SP,

have you read the early Church Fathers? They repeatedly quoted the books of the Bible as Scripture well before any church council got around to making a list of accepted books or canon. The Bible did not derive its authority from men. It was recognized from the start. We can trust God to supply His church with the right NT books just as He supplied the Jewish people with the right OT books. The Jews had an authoritative OT without an inerrant church council first making an inerrant list.

True it is that the Church is built on Peter. But she is not built on Peter alone. The other apostles are foundational stones of the Church too, as we know from Paul's epistle and the book of Revelation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,369
7,745
Canada
✟722,927.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I like the whole "Catholics says they don't get all their beliefs from the bible."

Well, duh. Catholics were around before the bible. They wrote the bible. They compiled the bible. They said what books were to be in the bible.

The belief that one must base their view on the bible in every way, shape and form is a modern invention. It was never believed by ancient Christians because it could not be believed by ancient Christians.

Before there was a bible, there was the Christian faith- from which comes the bible.

So- what is the authentic faith? It can't be the one that is based on the bible.

//I just logically destroyed sola scriptura. I am on a roll tonight...

Well back then it was orthodox . there wasn't a pope proclaiming himself above the other orthodox head bishops until the schism .
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,201
334
Midwest
✟110,477.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The Catholic Church is Catholic. Anything else that asserts itself or separates itself apart from the Catholic Church is by reason, anti-Catholic.

Moses didn't write the Torah. The apostles didn't write all the Gospels. At least not in their completed form. The Gospels were formed long after Christianity was established.

33AD - Catholic faith and Church begins

75 - Book of Revelation earliest possible date

I have not checked the other dates in your list, but there is evidence that the Book of Revelation was written before 70 A.D., before Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed.

John was told to go (rise) and measure the temple of God and its altar.

Revelation 11:1 "Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

The temple and altar were destroyed in 70 A.D. so John had to measure them before they were destroyed.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,201
334
Midwest
✟110,477.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Good Day, Jan

Welcome....

Could you please provide a primary historical source of excatly what Paul told the Thess... church that is not included in the bible, who (person or people) he told it to and where this spoken discussion took place and when it happened.


Does Rome have a published interpretation of what they think this verse means.....?

In Him,

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thank you for the welcome greetings. Good day to you also.

I will try to answer your questions satisfactorily.

I am not sure what you mean by "Thess... church that is not included in the bible."

Scholars believe that Paul visited Thessalonica on his first journey to Macedonia and that he established a church there. We know that Paul wrote at least two letters to this church.

Thessaloniki (Thessalonica) was and still is a city in what is now called Greece and it is the capital of Macedonia, Thrace, etc., and is the second largest city in Greece today.

Some of the writings of[FONT=&quot] St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch do still exist. The following excerpt is from one of his letters and it was written to the Smyrnaeans in c. 107 A.D., shortly before his martyrdom. In that Apostolic Letter, he wrote;

[/FONT]
Chapter 8:[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as,wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

The English word Priest comes from the Greek word Presbytery. A love feast is a proper Eucharist administered by a bishop, or else by a priest who has been given permission by his bishop.

A love feast [Jude 1:1-13] or Eucharist was also called breaking bread together [Acts. 20:7]. The Eucharist is what was commanded at Jesus' Last Supper. [1 Corinthians 11:23-29]

1 Corinthians 10:16 "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" NKJV [Acts 2:32]

This partaking together of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is called Holy Communion in the western Catholic Church and it spiritually unites all partakers into the one body of Christ. [John 6:51-58]

St. Ignatius' apostolic letter to the Smyrnaeans in c. 107 A.D. is also the oldest surviving written record that we are aware of, which mentions the official name of Jesus Christ's Church. It is called the Catholic Church.

Before all the apostles died, Jesus' Church was already known as the Catholic Church and this is because the apostles and their disciples had already preached the gospel to the whole known world (Roman Empire) within their own lifetime. "Catholic" means "universal."

Romans 1:8
"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." NKJV

1 Corinthians 4:9 "For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men." NKJV


More info on St. Ignatius can be found at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch and at: newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,865
1,714
59
New England
✟512,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi Bill,

Thank you for the welcome greetings. Good day to you also.

I will try to answer your questions satisfactorily.

I am not sure what you mean by "Thess... church that is not included in the bible."

Scholars believe that Paul visited Thessalonica on his first journey to Macedonia and that he established a church there. We know that Paul wrote at least two letters to this church.

Thessaloniki (Thessalonica) was and still is a city in what is now called Greece and it is the capital of Macedonia, Thrace, etc., and is the second largest city in Greece today.

Some of the writings of[FONT=&quot] St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch do still exist. The following excerpt is from one of his letters and it was written to the Smyrnaeans in c. 107 A.D., shortly before his martyrdom. In that Apostolic Letter, he wrote;[/FONT]

Chapter 8:

"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as,wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

The English word Priest comes from the Greek word Presbytery. A love feast is a proper Eucharist administered by a bishop, or else by a priest who has been given permission by his bishop.

A love feast [Jude 1:1-13] or Eucharist was also called breaking bread together [Acts. 20:7]. The Eucharist is what was commanded at Jesus' Last Supper. [1 Corinthians 11:23-29]

1 Corinthians 10:16 "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" NKJV [Acts 2:32]

This partaking together of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is called Holy Communion in the western Catholic Church and it spiritually unites all partakers into the one body of Christ. [John 6:51-58]

St. Ignatius' apostolic letter to the Smyrnaeans in c. 107 A.D. is also the oldest surviving written record that we are aware of, which mentions the official name of Jesus Christ's Church. It is called the Catholic Church.

Before all the apostles died, Jesus' Church was already known as the Catholic Church and this is because the apostles and their disciples had already preached the gospel to the whole known world (Roman Empire) within their own lifetime. "Catholic" means "universal."

Romans 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." NKJV

1 Corinthians 4:9 "For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men." NKJV


More info on St. Ignatius can be found at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch and at: newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm

Good Day, Jan

I am very Familar with the writings of the ECF....

By Thess... church I mean the church at (Thessalonica) whom Paul letter was addrresed, if he delivered to them things orally...(Meaning not is scripture)

What was the things Paul delivered to them, who did he give it to a person, a group, and when did that transmission take place. I would like a primary historic source please.

Alsop pleas epoint me to the infallible interpretation of the Roman Catholic Church for the passage in question. As that is the interpertation you are bound to other wise you are using your own fallible interpertation.

Augustine- The Church is the realm of Christ, His mystical body and His bride, the Mother of Christians. He also speaks of an inner and outer church, and the difficulty of telling from appearances who are members of this true church (the "enclosed garden spring shut up, fountain sealed, the paradise with the fruit of apples) who are the elect, and belong to the "invisible fellowship of love


Rounds out the historical meaning of the Church, and it is not restricted to Rome. It would be all his elect and it is catholic is the real sense, not (C)atholic as a name church (visible fellowship)

In Him,

Bill
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,201
334
Midwest
✟110,477.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
....
A: What was the things Paul delivered to them, B: who did he give it to a person, a group, and C: when did that transmission take place. D: I would like a primary historic source please.

A: Paul personally delivered to them (preached/taught to them) all the things that Jesus commanded the apostles to teach. [Matthew 28:19-20; 2 Corinthians 12:1-7] Paul supplemented his oral preaching with his written epistles. [1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Corinthians 14:37]

Paul and the other apostles delivered to the members of the individual churches many things in person which were not written down. [John 21:25; 1 Thessalonians 3:9-10; 3 John 1:13]

God never commanded the apostles and disciples to write letters to individuals or to various churches or to write down the history of Jesus' life and death and resurrection, except for John; he was commanded to send letters to the seven churches in Asia.

Paul admonishes the churches to hold fast to the traditions that he delivered to them both in person and by the written word in his epistles. [2 Thessalonians 2:15; 2 Thessalonians 3:14]


Jesus never wrote His teachings down on scrolls or papyrus. Likewise, He never commanded His apostles to write down His teachings. Jesus commanded His apostles to make disciples for Him and to teach/preach His gospel to His disciples in person. [2 Timothy 4:2; 1 Timothy 4:11; 2 Timothy 2:2]

B: A body of believers in the local church in Thessalonica;

C: Sometime after his first journey there.

D. Perhaps a Biblical historian can help you with more source material.

Also please point me to the infallible interpretation of the Roman Catholic Church for the passage in question. As that is the interpretation you are bound to other wise you are using your own fallible interpretation.
I know of no source for an infallible interpretation/proclamation/doctrine/dogma on this particular passage. I don't think one exists. Rome rarely makes infallible proclamations and so usually only does make them when there is a big debate raging concerning things pertaining to faith and morals.

However, we do have the opinions of various church and biblical scholars written in the footnotes and notes and commentaries of several of the Catholic Bible translations, but on some passages their opinions do not match. Their own commentaries reflect their own opinions.

My interpretation of Scripture is my own opinion based upon my own study of Scripture and my study of various opinions of others. I use my own reasoning ability to discern if I share any of their opinions and I do not ever claim that my own opinion is infallible. I do my best to make sure that my opinion does not conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Augustine- The Church is the realm of Christ, His mystical body and His bride, the Mother of Christians. He also speaks of an inner and outer church, and the difficulty of telling from appearances who are members of this true church (the "enclosed garden spring shut up, fountain sealed, the paradise with the fruit of apples) who are the elect, and belong to the "invisible fellowship of love

Rounds out the historical meaning of the Church, and it is not restricted to Rome. It would be all his elect and it is catholic is the real sense, not (C)atholic as a name church (visible fellowship)
Rome is where the overseer steward of Jesus' Catholic Church lives and Rome is the seat of his own personal bishopric territory. That is why the pope is called the bishop of Rome. He is also the overseer bishop of the whole Catholic Church.

Jesus appointed one man to the office of overseer steward and this was done by changing his name from Simon to Peter and by giving him the keys. Just as Abram received his new name Abraham when he was chosen to become the father of many nations, Simon also received a new name when he was chosen to became the father of all the members of Jesus' church. The other apostles and their successors came to be known as fathers, but Peter and his successors were specifically chosen above all others to receive the keys designating the office of overseer stewardship.

There can only be one legitimate overseer of all other stewards in office at a time. [Isaiah 22:15-22; Matthew 16:17-19] There were twelve apostles appointed as stewards by Jesus. [1 Corinthians 9:17; Titus 1:7] When Judas hanged himself, another steward was appointed to fill his vacant office. [Psalm 109:8; Acts 1:16-25]

There is only one true Church of Jesus Christ, properly speaking, and it is the Catholic Church and it is headed by the Pope/Papa who alone was given the keys of the kingdom of God. All other organizations who name their assemblies church are not teaching the whole truth of the church that Jesus established. They teach some truth, which is good, but they are lacking the whole truth.

There can only be one gospel of Jesus Christ and it is taught by Jesus Christ's Catholic Church. All other assemblies (churches) teach a gospel that is somewhat contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, they ignorantly teach some truth and some error.

Galatians 1:6-9 "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." RSV

2 Peter 3:15-17 "And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability." RSV

Most people who are living today are ignorant of the true teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This includes most Catholics; they neither know nor do they understand the faith that they were baptized into. I, myself, am still ignorant about many things, but I am doing my best, with God's help, to gain wisdom.

There is only one church in heaven and so everyone there believes exactly the same doctrines.

The elect of God who are still living on earth are known by God alone according to His foreknowledge. God alone knows the status of each person's soul/heart. [1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 1:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5]
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,455
5,308
✟828,720.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I have not checked the other dates in your list, but there is evidence that the Book of Revelation was written before 70 A.D., before Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed.

John was told to go (rise) and measure the temple of God and its altar.

Revelation 11:1 "Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

The temple and altar were destroyed in 70 A.D. so John had to measure them before they were destroyed.

Jan, look at the context; the Temple and Altar which John was told to measure is the new temple, in the New Jerusalem. It was in his vision. St. John was likely nowhere near Jerusalem when he penned Revelation, and it is likely that he never returned to Jerusalem either.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

By Faith Alone

Junior Member
Oct 17, 2013
2,738
87
✟10,792.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John told Paul about his "trip" as Paul relates in this discourse:

2 Cor 12:2-5
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Makes no difference when it was penned.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Jan, look at the context; the Temple and Altar which John was told to measure is the new temple, in the New Jerusalem. It was in his vision. St. John was likely nowhere near Jerusalem when he penned Revelation, and it is likely that he never returned to Jerusalem either.
I suppose that depends on how one views the "woman" in Reve 17:3, which has an uncanny resemblance to Ezekiel being carried in spirit in Ezekiel 8.....pretty awsome!

Ezekiel 8:3
And He putteth forth a form of a hand and is taking me by a lock of my head, and a spirit is lifting me between the land and the heavens and is bringing me Jerusalem-ward in appearance of Elohiym to portal of gate, the inner one facing north-ward
which there a seat of a figure/image of the jealously, the provoking jealously. [Revelation 17:3]

Reve 17:3
And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a scarlet beast, being replete of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. [Ezekiel 8:3]


.
 
Upvote 0

Second Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2013
2,142
69
✟2,668.00
Faith
Christian
Wow...

Where did you learn Logic....

In graduate school. And you?

where did you learn the correct definition of Sola Scriptura, you built a straw man and then burned it down...

That's your response? You basically just posted "nuh uh". If you are going to say my argument is wrong, then show it.

The Roman chuch says X,Y,Z you belive them, they claim it you buy it....

Catholics believe what has always been believed.

Roman Catholic freely admit not every thing they beliove come form the bible.... You may not but others do:

Dude - I just stated that that would be impossible, since the Catholic faith came before the bible. If the authentic Christian faith existed before the bible was written, then the authentic Christian faith cannot be 'based on the bible'. Any group that claims it is based entirely on the bible cannot claim to be the original Church.

[quote

Lets be serious.... for a change.

In Him,

Bill[/quote]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SwordFall

Junior Member
Oct 4, 2013
1,071
37
✟1,454.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The Church in and of itself is called THE CHURCH because of it's lineage to old Christianity. She knows the teachings of the apostles.

You are dealing with an establishment that has been around, by the official note, for 1700 years. We are orthodox.

I don't feel that this fact is as respectfully observed as it should be. Humming solo scriptura at it is just not enough.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FlameAlchemist

Mustang
Oct 21, 2013
168
10
Some beach, somewhere
✟7,854.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Catholics believe what has always been believed.

What about the many man made laws of Catholicism though? I'm not against Catholicism or anything, but that aspect of it always intrigued me, such as confession to a priest, veneration of Saints, praying to Mary, purgatory, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Second Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2013
2,142
69
✟2,668.00
Faith
Christian
SP,

have you read the early Church Fathers? They repeatedly quoted the books of the Bible as Scripture well before any church council got around to making a list of accepted books or canon.

This has nothing to do with my argument. What does their quoting of scripture have to do with knowing which books are infallible? If the fathers are fallible, then it doesn't matter. In that way, the fathers are merely giving their opinions of which books are infallible.

The Bible did not derive its authority from men.

The bible derives its authority from being the word of God that has been proven to be infallible. Unless you can prove all the books of the bible are infallible, then it is not an authority. You cannot quote scripture with authority unless you know with certainty that the particular book/passage is infallible.

It was recognized from the start.

Wrong. There was no 'bible' in the beginning. They was what would become the bible in separate pieces. A council decided which books to include and which to leave out.
Unless the council

We can trust God to supply His church with the right NT books just as He supplied the Jewish people with the right OT books.

This is a protestant invention that's no where in the bible. It was invented precisely as a way to answering how they can be sure of scripture if there is no infallible way to determine it. So they say, of, oh course, we can trust God to make sure the bible came together.

No, we can't trust God to make sure the bible comes together when left up to fallible means.

The Jews had an authoritative OT without an inerrant church council first making an inerrant list.

Really, because there were several different OTs available.

[quote\True it is that the Church is built on Peter. But she is not built on Peter alone. The other apostles are foundational stones of the Church too, as we know from Paul's epistle and the book of Revelation.[/quote]

On is different from being built from.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Second Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2013
2,142
69
✟2,668.00
Faith
Christian
Well back then it was orthodox . there wasn't a pope proclaiming himself above the other orthodox head bishops until the schism .

Proclaiming himself above? What does that even mean? There was no Orthodox Church in 1054. You could ask all over Constantinople where the Orthodox Church met and they wouldn't be able to tell you.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.