A Few Facts Why the Talmud (oral law) is a hoax

Thomas L Cossette · Oct 4, 2013

(1) The first fact is Moses own testimony Deuteronomy 12:8 Here we find Moses saying;

"Ye shall not do after all that we do this day every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

If an oral law was given at Sinai to explain the written law, Moses would have never made this statement.

(2) In Ezra 3:4 and Nehemiah 8:17 it says they kept the feast of booths as it was written in the Law of Moses and that it had not been kept since the time of Joshua son of Nun. In the Talmud it give specific instruction how to keep Sukkot. If these instructions were orally given at Sinai this feast would not have been lost for 600 years.

(3) Only the Pharisees claimed the oral law was given at Sinai. The Sadducees did not believe in the oral tradition. The Essenes did not follow the oral law. The isolated Jewish communities of Ethiopia and Yemen new nothing of it until the where told they needed to accept it to return to Israel in the last century. If an oral law had been given then the priest of these groups would have surely know of it.

(4) In the oral tradition it has specific instruction for keeping Chanukah the problem with that is, Chanukah is not instituted until 156 B.C. some eleven hundred years after their claim that it was given at Sinai.

(5) Yeshua is critical of the oral traditions in his sermon on the mount. As he is also critical of Chanukah and the priesthood that goes with it. condemning both in parable in the gospel of Matthew. In John he says of those holding that day they are not his disciples.

Steve Petersen · Oct 4, 2013

A mile wide and an inch deep.....sigh.

Keep studying.

Thomas L Cossette · Oct 5, 2013

Come on Steve

you can do better......a sigh and a witty remark. then no retort that means you have nothing to support the Oral law. And you are closing your eyes to the written Law of Moses that you say you love. Well I am assuming you love the Law of Moses

yedida · Oct 5, 2013

You are also assuming a lot of other things too!! Oy.

cyberlizard · Oct 5, 2013

yawn!!!

Yoseft · Oct 5, 2013

Thomas L Cossette said:
(1) The first fact is Moses own testimony Deuteronomy 12:8 Here we find Moses saying;

"Ye shall not do after all that we do this day every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

If an oral law was given at Sinai to explain the written law, Moses would have never made this statement.

(2) In Ezra 3:4 and Nehemiah 8:17 it says they kept the feast of booths as it was written in the Law of Moses and that it had not been kept since the time of Joshua son of Nun. In the Talmud it give specific instruction how to keep Sukkot. If these instructions were orally given at Sinai this feast would not have been lost for 600 years.

(3) Only the Pharisees claimed the oral law was given at Sinai. The Sadducees did not believe in the oral tradition. The Essenes did not follow the oral law. The isolated Jewish communities of Ethiopia and Yemen new nothing of it until the where told they needed to accept it to return to Israel in the last century. If an oral law had been given then the priest of these groups would have surely know of it.

(4) In the oral tradition it has specific instruction for keeping Chanukah the problem with that is, Chanukah is not instituted until 156 B.C. some eleven hundred years after their claim that it was given at Sinai.

(5) Yeshua is critical of the oral traditions in his sermon on the mount. As he is also critical of Chanukah and the priesthood that goes with it. condemning both in parable in the gospel of Matthew. In John he says of those holding that day they are not his disciples.

Would you rather have me consider other traditions passed down that
has Peter in Rome and he is the head of the Church, or that we can
pray to the saints and Mary, or that he was crucified on good Friday, or
that he was born on 25 Dec?

Dusky Mouse · Oct 5, 2013

Way to make a first impression. Violate the rules of the forum with a declaration that a holy tradition is a hoax. Don't ask if it is so, don't purport to be a seeker. State outright, THE TALMUD IS A HOAX!

I wonder if you've been here before. Claiming to be Catholic and an Illuminati theistic Satanist who use to work in Hollywood movies and now tends bar. ^_^

Gotta love the perks that come with worshiping the dark side.

Thomas L Cossette · Oct 5, 2013

Such as ..... why is it when facts are presented instead of dealing with the merit of the issue, Stephen and yourself come up with meaningless responses trying to deflect back to the presenter away from the facts. How have I assumed anything and what is it you think I assumed speak straight and plainly if you know how.

Thomas L Cossette · Oct 5, 2013

I agree with you about Dec 25 and Peter as head of the church What Yehoshva said was upon the rock of revelation of the father that Yeshua is Messiah he would build his Church.
In stead of deflection issues why not ask how I come up with the fact Yehsoshva (Yeshua) condemns Chanukah and the Hasomaean priesthood

Thomas L Cossette · Oct 5, 2013

Dusty Mouse.....wow really an illuminati..... are you for real! All of you that have responded have deflected rather than make a case I am wrong. Is it because Moses own testimony I quoted proves you deflectors are outside his covenant.

Lulav · Oct 5, 2013

Shabbat Shalom Thomas!

I see that you are new to our forums so I have made a special thread just for you to introduce yourself. Tell us a bit about your journey to MJ and something about your studies, what your interests are, whatever. You don't have to share any details that you aren't comfortable with, ok?

Welcome Thomas!

Welcoming Angel Lulav :angel:

Yahudim · Oct 5, 2013

Hi Thomas... :wave:

...and welcome to our little slice of paradise.

Sorry if you weren't all that well received; the context of your arrival and your assertions might bear a little elaboration and examination. So too, the nature of the group into whose maws you have bravely ventured.

There should be a sign over the door: "Abandon sanity, all ye that pass through this portal." There are LOTS of unwritten rules herein. Many you will never hear expressed openly. Dark glasses and a cane are requisite accoutrements to any semi-meaningful exchanges here.

Though protests to the contrary abound, this group isn't as friendly or as open as they might have others believe. Certainly there are some individuals that are more loving, more honest, more open and more forgiving than others. The truth is that we are just people. We know what we know and believe what we believe, though the latter statement might belie the actual state of affairs; there is little in the way of unity here when it comes to beliefs.

Echad! Gesundheit! :amen:

We are in an assigned roommate arrangement. Watch where you step, there are both tender toes and yard bombs in abundance.

There has been an ongoing battle royale between the 'gracers' and the 'observant'. Though 'Torah Observance' is 'protected' in our Statement of Purpose (for the Gentile as well as the Jew [righhhht....]), the 'nit pickers' are allowed free reign. Actual discussions of actual observance are dying the death of a thousand cuts. The 'gracers' are 'winning' (I thought I heard Charlie Sheen) in that just about anyone with the right icon can preach or teach here now. Tiger's Blood anyone?

Some among this happy little family are actively supporting the notion that all the nice, 'well-intentioned but ill-informed' little goyim that are 'playing Jewish dress-up' might be better off just sitting quietly in their seats or returning to their respective churches, leaving the leadership responsibilities of Messianic Judaism to blood-born Jewish Christians converts and certain insincere Messianic 'Jewish' converts; those born of a snip, a dip and some lip by a Rabbinically unrecognized Biet Din. With others, for a variety of reasons (surprise surprise), that sentiment isn't going over so well. (Holy shades of, "Mama! Let dim chillun dance!", Batman!) Go figure. :doh:

Add to that mix...
- the regular series of (self-righteous) Christian 'drive-by' posters that are sincerely trying to free us from the 'bondage' of Torah...
- the non-believing Jews that give us the 'down low' on all things Jewish and Rabbinical...
- the normal complement of WWW whack jobs attempting to educate us on how we are being 'used' by a wider conspiracy...
- your presentation that presumes we have never heard, from any other source, your position on the Oral traditions...
...and you might see why your welcome here wasn't as warm and gracious as it might have been.

I took the liberty of quoting your post. As a matter of civil deference, self-preservation and literal survival (like the pun?) among a highly diverse and dysfunctional group of people; a group widely rumored to have eaten their young on a dare; might you consider rephrasing your statements of absolute certainty to resemble inquiries that provoke discussion?

Here, let me help. Your statement...

Thomas L Cossette said:
(1) The first fact is Moses own testimony Deuteronomy 12:8 Here we find Moses saying;

"Ye shall not do after all that we do this day every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

If an oral law was given at Sinai to explain the written law, Moses would have never made this statement.

Might be better presented as: Do you think Moses statement in Deuteronomy 12:8 would have meant that he (did; did not) believe (etc., et al).

OK, now you try...

Thomas L Cossette said:
(2) In Ezra 3:4 and Nehemiah 8:17 it says they kept the feast of booths as it was written in the Law of Moses and that it had not been kept since the time of Joshua son of Nun. In the Talmud it give specific instruction how to keep Sukkot. If these instructions were orally given at Sinai this feast would not have been lost for 600 years.

Thomas L Cossette said:
(3) Only the Pharisees claimed the oral law was given at Sinai. The Sadducees did not believe in the oral tradition. The Essenes did not follow the oral law. The isolated Jewish communities of Ethiopia and Yemen new nothing of it until the where told they needed to accept it to return to Israel in the last century. If an oral law had been given then the priest of these groups would have surely know of it.

Thomas L Cossette said:
(4) In the oral tradition it has specific instruction for keeping Chanukah the problem with that is, Chanukah is not instituted until 156 B.C. some eleven hundred years after their claim that it was given at Sinai.

Thomas L Cossette said:
(5) Yeshua is critical of the oral traditions in his sermon on the mount. As he is also critical of Chanukah and the priesthood that goes with it. condemning both in parable in the gospel of Matthew. In John he says of those holding that day they are not his disciples.

Please remember when you present your case against the Oral traditions of Rabbinical Judaism, that there will be a faction here that is going to be offended. An attempt to criticize a Jewish institution such as the Oral Traditions will probably garner you the honorific of 'Jew basher'.

Your assignment Mr. Phelps, should decide to accept it, is to offend as few people as possible while still garnering some meaningful dialogue. Oops. Too late.

Oh well. :shrug: When intellectual honesty fails, there is always groveling (expect to be kicked while you are down).

Blessings,
Phillip

Yoseft · Oct 5, 2013

Thomas L Cossette said:
I agree with you about Dec 25 and Peter as head of the church What Yehoshva said was upon the rock of revelation of the father that Yeshua is Messiah he would build his Church.
In stead of deflection issues why not ask how I come up with the fact Yehsoshva (Yeshua) condemns Chanukah and the Hasomaean priesthood

If this is to me, I will ask then.

"Yehsoshva (Yeshua) condemns Chanukah and the Hasomaean priesthood."

I am not as learned as others, so bear with me.

Chanukah the feast of Dedication in John:22?

And the Hasomeaen priesthood?

Please go on.

Hoshiyya · Oct 5, 2013

John refers to at least three Passovers during the ministry of Yeshua (John 2:13; 6:4; 19:14), including his final one. He also mentions the Feast of Tabernacles, known by the Jews as Sukkot (John 7:2), the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, which the Jews called Hoshanah Rabbah (John 7:37), and the Feast of Dedication, commonly known as Chanukah (John 10:22).

Unlike Sukkot and Hoshanah Rabbah, the scriptures do not command, but neither do they condemn, the festival of Chanukah. Yeshua may well have been born during this festival. John gives us an indication when he speaks of him at the beginning of his Gospel:

JOHN 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of that light. 9 That was the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (NKJV)

stone · Oct 5, 2013

talmidim said:
Hi Thomas...

...and welcome to our little slice of paradise. Sorry if you weren't all that well received; the context of your arrival and your assertions might bear a little elaboration and examination. So too, the nature of the group into whose maws you have bravely ventured.

There should be a sign over the door: "Abandon sanity, all ye that pass through this portal." There are LOTS of unwritten rules herein. Many you will never hear expressed openly. Dark glasses and a cane are requisite accoutrements to any semi-meaningful exchanges here.

Though protests to the contrary abound, this group isn't as friendly or as open as they might have others believe. Certainly there are some individuals that are more loving, more honest, more open and more forgiving than others. The truth is that we are just people. We know what we know and believe what we believe, though the latter statement might belie the actual state of affairs; there is little in the way of unity here when it comes to beliefs.

Echad! Gesundheit!

We are in an assigned roommate arrangement. Watch where you step, there are both tender toes and yard bombs in abundance.

There has been an ongoing battle royale between the 'gracers' and the 'observant'. Though 'Torah Observance' is 'protected' in our Statement of Purpose (for the Gentile as well as the Jew [righhhht....]), the 'nit pickers' are allowed free reign. Actual discussions of actual observance are dying the death of a thousand cuts. The 'gracers' are 'winning' (I thought I heard Charlie Sheen) in that just about anyone with the right icon can preach or teach here now. Tiger's Blood anyone?

Some among this happy little family are actively supporting the notion that all the nice, 'well-intentioned but ill-informed' little goyim that are 'playing Jewish dress-up' might be better off just sitting quietly in their seats or returning to their respective churches, leaving the leadership responsibilities of Messianic Judaism to blood-born Jewish Christians converts and certain insincere Messianic 'Jewish' converts; those born of a snip, a dip and some lip by a Rabbinically unrecognized Biet Din. With others, for a variety of reasons (surprise surprise), that sentiment isn't going over so well. (Holy shades of, "Mama! Let dim chillun dance!", Batman!) Go figure.

Add to that mix...
- the regular series of (self-righteous) Christian 'drive-by' posters that are sincerely trying to free us from the 'bondage' of Torah...
- the non-believing Jews that give us the 'down low' on all things Jewish and Rabbinical...
- the normal complement of WWW whack jobs attempting to educate us on how we are being 'used' by a wider conspiracy...
- your presentation that presumes we have never heard, from any other source, your position on the Oral traditions...
...and you might see why your welcome here wasn't as warm and gracious as it might have been.

I took the liberty of quoting your post. As a matter of civil deference, self-preservation and literal survival (like the pun?) among a highly diverse and dysfunctional group of people; a group widely rumored to have eaten their young on a dare; might you consider rephrasing your statements of absolute certainty to resemble inquiries that provoke discussion?

Here, let me help. Your statement...
Might be better presented as: Do you think Moses statement in Deuteronomy 12:8 would have meant that he (did; did not) believe (etc., et al).

OK, now you try...

Please remember when you present your case against the Oral traditions of Rabbinical Judaism, that there will be a faction here that is going to be offended. An attempt to criticize a Jewish institution such as the Oral Traditions will probably garner you the honorific of 'Jew basher'.

Your assignment Mr. Phelps, should decide to accept it, is to offend as few people as possible while still garnering some meaningful dialogue. Oops. Too late. Oh well. :shrug: When intellectual honesty fails, there is always groveling (expect to be kicked while you are down).

Blessings,
Phillip

nice

stone · Oct 5, 2013

Hoshiyya said:
John refers to at least three Passovers during the ministry of Yeshua (John 2:13; 6:4; 19:14), including his final one. He also mentions the Feast of Tabernacles, known by the Jews as Sukkot (John 7:2), the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, which the Jews called Hoshanah Rabbah (John 7:37), and the Feast of Dedication, commonly known as Chanukah (John 10:22).

Unlike Sukkot and Hoshanah Rabbah, the scriptures do not command, but neither do they condemn, the festival of Chanukah. Yeshua may well have been born during this festival. John gives us an indication when he speaks of him at the beginning of his Gospel:

JOHN 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of that light. 9 That was the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (NKJV)

I was gonna say... Jsus never condemned Chanukah.

ananda · Oct 5, 2013

Virtually every denomination has a form of Oral Torah (men's traditions used to interpret YHVH's Torah aka elevating those traditions above YHVH's Torah) ...

Rabbinical Judaism has their Talmud, rebbes, tzaddiks, rabbis.
Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, have their synods, church "fathers", popes, patriarchs, cardinals, bishops, and their pronouncements.
Protestantism has Pauline primacy and church leaders/pastors.
Messianic Judaism has a mix of many of the above as well.

I believe it all stems from the disbelief that any individual person can approach Messiah & Torah and understand Him and it directly with the help of the Holy Spirit. Instead, another (man-made) authoritative "layer" must be interposed in between.

pat34lee · Oct 5, 2013

netzarim said:
Virtually every denomination has a form of Oral Torah (men's traditions used to interpret YHVH's Torah aka elevating those traditions above YHVH's Torah) ...

Rabbinical Judaism has their Talmud, rebbes, tzaddiks, rabbis.
Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, have their synods, church "fathers", popes, patriarchs, cardinals, bishops, and their pronouncements.
Protestantism has Pauline primacy and church leaders/pastors.
Messianic Judaism has a mix of many of the above as well.

I believe it all stems from the disbelief that any individual person can approach Messiah & Torah and understand Him and it directly with the help of the Holy Spirit. Instead, another (man-made) authoritative "layer" must be interposed in between.

I think it is more a way to ensure that a congregation has a set of beliefs in common. It would be hard to have a church where there are wildly different beliefs held by the members. Saturday or Sunday, Easter or Passover, grace or works, etc.

stone · Oct 5, 2013

pat34lee said:
I think it is more a way to ensure that a congregation has a set of beliefs in common. It would be hard to have a church where there are wildly different beliefs held by the members. Saturday or Sunday, Easter or Passover, grace or works, etc.

I do both, but am careful to not put the new wine into the old wineskins or the old wine into the new wineskins. For me Easter is all about Jesus, no magic rabbits, no fat magical man on Christmas. Passover is fun and always educational, just as is Chanukah.

peace

ananda · Oct 5, 2013

pat34lee said:
I think it is more a way to ensure that a congregation has a set of beliefs in common. It would be hard to have a church where there are wildly different beliefs held by the members. Saturday or Sunday, Easter or Passover, grace or works, etc.

Well, it seems like your perspective is based on the premise that "church" or "synagogue" (as the vast majority of Christians and Messianics see it today) is the gathering of individuals under an authority which is not Torah, for example, a pastor, a priest, a tradition, a statement of beliefs, a creed, or the like.

These pastors, priests, traditions, statement of beliefs, creeds, &c. are thus placed above Torah. Torah is thereafter interpreted thru the spectacles of this new authority, which goes back to my original point.

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